Security buffs

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PKPenguin321
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Re: Security buffs

Postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:12 am #505425

oranges wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:I indeed do care a lot about the "gameness" of it, and would strongly prefer that. And again, regardless of all other aspects: Unless you make sure that these abilities are communicated very clearly in-game (such as a message or an on-mob animation when an officer resists stamina damage), it will never be acceptable.


You're talking about every time someone attacks a sec officer to have a message like "[officer] shrugs off some of the effects of [whatever]." right? That seems kind of spammy and maybe better accomplished through a hint and player-to-player word of mouth.

EDIT: Unless you had another idea, ideally involving the onscreen mobs that the attacker is definitely looking at.

That, or as I said in the text you quoted, something like an on-mob animation (like them pulsing blue for a half second or something?). Player feedback is absolutely vital for this. A message on a cooldown might even be good. Even just a regular message would probably be okay, considering you only hit people with stamina damage maybe a couple of times per fight compared to how many times you attack them.

this is no different to stims or other implants that antags already have that give zero user feedback

I don't agree that's its "absolutely vital", but it would be nice to have.

I never said those were good either, but I'm glad you agree
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:03 am #505438

Security doesn't need a buff.

Antags need a nerf.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:05 am #505439

Shadowflame909 wrote:Security doesn't need a buff.

Antags need a nerf.

Not to say that I agree with either side, but this makes no sense.
Security is a single department that you can nerf or buff pretty directly (by changing what gear they're given, or doing what the OP suggests).
"Antags" includes traitors, lings, cult, blob, abductors, nuke ops, etc, etc, etc, and you can't just nerf that directly.
If this is the angle you are going to take, you need a specific plan.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby BeeSting12 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:06 am #505440

Security Fundamentals Implant:
Every officer spawns with one in them. Gives them a 50% stamina resistance, lower stun times, no slowdown when pulling someone in cuffs, and someone trying to drag someone away from them needs to break the grab first.

It can be removed by targetting the head and doing an implant removal surgery. Once it's out, it can be reapplied by putting it in an implanter and clicking on yourself.

This keeps a limited number on the station (so it's not handed out like candy during nuke ops) while allowing traitors to disguise as officers with proper planning (need to steal an implanter, surgery tools, and have a safe spot to do all this).
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:12 am #505442

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:Security doesn't need a buff.

Antags need a nerf.

Not to say that I agree with either side, but this makes no sense.
Security is a single department that you can nerf or buff pretty directly (by changing what gear they're given, or doing what the OP suggests).
"Antags" includes traitors, lings, cult, blob, abductors, nuke ops, etc, etc, etc, and you can't just nerf that directly.
If this is the angle you are going to take, you need a specific plan.


We are currently working to change the medical system and give it more content, therefore dramatically changing the game because medical requires crew being injured to work.

Antags completely ignore these changes because they function off of 2 principles.

1. Kill you before you're aware of their sinister prowess.

2. Teleport behind you and kill you before you even knew they were there.

Ling, Traitor, Cult would be the first one. The main side antags for this one would be Morph and statue.

Wiznerd, Ops, Nightmare would be the second one. The main side antags for this one would-be abductor, revenant and the wiznerd demons.

My point is these features currently have a standard of making antags engage in short-term "get the jump on you" fights with a very powerful lethal weapon. If you decide to try to buff security so they don't have to stay in medbay as long as the rest of the crew. Everyone still loses because security will need a crew to completely function.

It's like, we're all aware security if the defense force. If antags get the drop on the players before they can even defend them and send them to the baymed system. Security's going to be tough out of a job in a very different way.

Maybe I'm spit-balling and throwing off the conversation. Yet, I think it's a pretty reasonable alternative viewpoint that in its current state. Security doesn't and shouldn't get into long-term firefights with our current antags. Since they're all so geared towards secrecy and sneak attacks.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Swagile » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:19 am #505445

Item: The Art of Self Defence

How to get?: Late join and round start security officers, and Head of Security spawn with a manual; usable only once then disappears.

What is it? Martial arts.

How is it used?:

Disarm: Works like normal disarm, except instead of pushing someone away, it works like wall pushes with 100 percent guarantee. Its like krav maga's leg sweep except it doesn't stun you, it just drops you down to the floor and drops anything in your hand on the floor guaranteed. Can be chained to keep someone or a group of people down. Would be the go to move for security officers being mobbed by grey tide as it can be used on multiple people to engage or disengage from a mob.

Grab: Grabbing now instantly aggressively grabs without the movement penalty. This is to be used on single but persistent targets where you don't want to risk losing any items to a tider. The aggressive grab lets you throw them away into a wall or into a person so you can run away / go in for a stun.

Harm: By using this manual, you lose all ability to harm people. Instead, you now palm strike your opponents in key areas that deal stamina damage instead. Each palm strike does half the stamina damage of a regular disabler shot, giving those you are hitting the ability to resist unless you have stunned them already.

The objective of this martial arts manual is for security officers to not be afraid of engaging the crew. Due to readily available pepper spray and flash protection, currently a sec officers most reliable tools are disablers, bola's, and stun batons. While these are fine against single unrobust targets, against robust targets or against mobs, these are actually detrimental. This martial arts lets you not lose out against crew who use simple items / disarms against you or other officers, but you will still be vulnerable to a prepared crew member or antagonist of the round.

TL;DR martial art lets you deal with grey tiders / bored crew easier, but a prepared crew member / antag can still deal with you.

EDIT: Forgot to mention flashbangs, but you can get protection from them, and even if you don't have protection, can usually be avoided unless the sec officer expertly juggles the flashbang. Flashbangs are also pretty limited, and can't be used to consecutively keep crew down unless your the HoS who starts off with a box of them.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Rohesie » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:32 am #505455

I used to be a really sweaty HoS/Cap main, and loved powergaming to the max either as antag or antag-hunter in the old days of yore.
Nowadays 99% of the time I play as security officer and try to solve things through words, interacting with the crew, instead of batoning them, as much as possible. I'm generally nagging people for breaking things and similar.
I may be playing too much in Sybil and too little in Bagil/Events Hall, but I don't feel security is in dire need of a buff.

That said, if you do feel that way, I have some suggestions.

oranges wrote:
  • This would give them high stamina resists, (honestly I'm thinking as high as 50%) and lowered stun times.
  • It would also grant them increased stamina damage with their fists, as well as the ability to resist shoves stunning them at all, and more importantly they no longer drop items in their active hand when they are slipped or shoved over.
  • When they have a cuffed person in a pull grab, they are not subject to any slowdowns
  • when they have a cuffed person in a pull grab, other people cannot pull that person away from the sec officer without breaking their pull first


50% damage reduction is a huge buff. Even 25% is really large. Balance changes are less noticeable in /tg/ than TGMC because it's not a straight out team deathmatch and you don't have win rates to compare, but if you are able to notice such a change during a local testing you are overdoing it and the impact will be larger than you expect, producing really spiky results.

PKPenguin321 wrote:Non-transferable job locked buffs like this are something we've done a really good job of avoiding over the years, and I hate how they've become more prevalent.


While I agree with some concerns here where the buff is too disruptive, the solution of hiding stuff behind skill books seems to cause more issues than solve. The more stuff a murderboning antag can stack, should it get its hands on the items, for that nice power fantasy, the worse for the game.

Which takes me to my suggestion: do make this an implant or skill buff, but make it really small and widespread in different areas. Barely noticeable by default. On regular gameplay that makes a lot of difference in the end.
Some examples:
* Make a stun ratio and give them 10% lower stuns (includes being shoved).
* Make them recover from stamina damage 10% faster.
* Make their pull slowdown half the regular one.
* Make all attempts to break a restrained pull a tug-of-war or similar mechanic.
Enough tiny buffs make quite a bit of a difference and are much less disruptive to the general gameplay flow.

That said, if you really want to buff security there are better ways:
* Make securitrons no longer just a walking free baton (give them a % chance to parry blows, and a % chance to riposte and stun/cuff the assailant if not on hit cooldown).
* Make it not so incredibly easy to permanently delete the records of every crew member. Buff that area to be able to create new records and set people to arrest for visual identification should they have an exposed not-unknown identity.
* Make jumpsuits and gear a bit more fire resistant (as a mechanic this is pretty obnoxious on every job).
* Tweak antags that ignore stun/stamina/atmos effects (simple mobs, skeletons, constructs) so that the mall cops can annoy them, instead of switching from zero effectiveness to very high one when using lethals. This is more of a general design, though.

I can PR some changes if interested, when I find the time.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby donutstation » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:06 am #505491

I see 2 issues with current security status:
  • the taser removal and the following stamina changes made it very easy for not-necessarily-antags to escape a sec officer - it's really easy to avoid getting arrested if you know what you're doing, a single disabler hit doesn't slow you down anymore and slips are still good when used defensively, all gear sec officer has access to other than disabler has a very limited range
  • sec officer with standard gear isn't much of a threat for an antag with adrenals, give them some actual weapons ffs, all they have is a 10 force brute melee, yes they can grab a welder but most sec officer players are newb and don't really powergame with gear or don't know the game very well, make stunbaton force 15???
but both of these become irrelevant if sec has a numbers advantage which it usually does

I don't think sec officers need a buff. Team gamemodes win odds are already favoring sec and crew in pretty much all cases. Solo antags aren't that strong - changeling isn't very scary anymore, most traitors are easy to kill. I'd say give adrenals a cooldown so lings and traitors can't spam it and sec vs antag combat is fine. The interrupting arrest thing mentioned in the op is just a server culture thing and to be more precise bagil culture thing - since i switched to terry i don't see that stuff at all, unless sec really deserved it. Definitely not something worth breaking the game balance by making sec officers untouchable, let bagil be bagil and switch to other server if you don't like it.

Armour already gives you a huge advantage in combat, it's hard enough to kill a sec officer let alone hos in their standard gear using a common weapon. All you have to do is scream for help once you get knocked down, also i don't see how buffing sec damage resistance helps them with dealing with greytide. Greytide can't kill you without getting banned, right?

There is plenty of robust sec regulars who are hard to fight against but the sec officer role seems to attract mostly new players and that's why seeing them getting dunked on is so common.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby TrumpetPlaya » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:18 am #505494

ok so all you want is for sec to have a major advantage against tide, thats a perfectly reasonable idea. with the current proposed buffs, the advantage bleeds into every other antag as well. youre looking at some huge balancing issues if you take that route. i agree with the trait aspect though, since it guarentees only sec can utilize it. have you considered a martial art that focuses on nonlethal takedowns?

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Re: Security buffs

Postby TrumpetPlaya » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:24 am #505496

ah didnt read page two...
ignore my last sentence

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Kyrah Abattoir » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:48 am #505498

Overall I think this is a good idea, regardless of player skill, it's reasonable that a security officer should have a natural advantage against your average crewmember.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby donutstation » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:58 am #505501

Kyrah Abattoir wrote:Overall I think this is a good idea, regardless of player skill, it's reasonable that a security officer should have a natural advantage against your average crewmember.

it's even more reasonable for traitors, nuke ops and other antags with antag background to have it
if you aren't going to give these buffs to all of them, you should probably drop this argument

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Kyrah Abattoir » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:59 am #505502

donutstation wrote:
Kyrah Abattoir wrote:Overall I think this is a good idea, regardless of player skill, it's reasonable that a security officer should have a natural advantage against your average crewmember.

it's even more reasonable for traitors, nuke ops and other antags with antag background to have it
if you aren't going to give these buffs to all of them, you should probably drop this argument


That really depends of the antag type I'd say. But I'd agree that it makes sense with nukies at the very least.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:25 pm #505508

The quirk/trait should not be transferable, it should only apply to roundstart or late joining Officers.

The first four suggestions, especially the handcuffs suggestions. Appear to be a strong idea. Historically, handcuffing and returning people to a secure area is the most likely time some third party, usually someone unaffiliated with the situation, will intervene and release/disrupt the arrest, usually by sanic dragging the handcuffed person away.

I've always found its ridiculous that it's safer to keep your stun baton in your backpack or belt than in your hands, and how RNG it can be to get stun locked by a luckey disarm.

I do not think the armour suggestion is necessary. It might be worth investigating armour values after the fact.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Enzar » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:32 pm #505510

why do we even need sec buffs like lmao just git gud
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Swagile » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:54 pm #505547

Nuke ops can easily be given a martial art advantage by giving all of them combat gloves plus instead of just the leader; that gives you krav maga + insulated + damage protection on hands all in one.

Traitors already have an advantage in their equipment buys, I don't think they need a martial art just for themselves; let alone the fact that they can buy a superior form of martial arts (carp) that can robust most security.

Cult have their blood magic.

Rev is, well, a mob gamemode. Its security and heads (around 10 people usually) vs the entire crew, they don't need a martial art to win if revs are remotely competent and zerg rush.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby BeeSting12 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:18 pm #505549

Steelpoint wrote:The quirk/trait should not be transferable, it should only apply to roundstart or late joining Officers.

I disagree, this makes disguises impossible.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby MisterPerson » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:30 pm #505551

BeeSting12 wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:The quirk/trait should not be transferable, it should only apply to roundstart or late joining Officers.

I disagree, this makes disguises impossible.

Not only has that ship sailed a long time ago, even then, if the thing outing your disguise is the fact someone notices you taking less stamina damage or getting your handcuff-drag broken... well that's not going to happen very often.
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Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby ATHATH » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:31 pm #505552

This thread puts/leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, but I'd be willing to at least grudgingly tolerate all of your proposed changes except for one of them:
oranges wrote:and more importantly they no longer drop items in their active hand when they are slipped or shoved over.

Please, please, don't do this part. Slipping and/or disarming sec officers who are too incompetent to put their guns/batons away while they're not using them is a time-honored tradition, and can often humble newer sec players.

If you really, really don't like it that people are stealing sec gear as non-sec officers, just add mindshield firing pins to said sec gear.
Last edited by ATHATH on Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby ATHATH » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:34 pm #505553

Steelpoint wrote:and how RNG it can be to get stun locked by a luckey disarm.

Have you not played in several months? Disarms (outside of those provided by certain martial arts) are no longer RNG-based; they're positioning-based now and can mostly be played around/avoided if your brain is larger than a walnut (don't stand next to a wall or a standing person for more than a second while you have a baton out).

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Re: Security buffs

Postby BeeSting12 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:34 pm #505554

MisterPerson wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:The quirk/trait should not be transferable, it should only apply to roundstart or late joining Officers.

I disagree, this makes disguises impossible.

Not only has that ship sailed a long time ago, even then, if the thing outing your disguise is the fact someone notices you taking less stamina damage or getting your handcuff-drag broken... well that's not going to happen very often.

Not sure how that ship has sailed. It's still possible to do a proper security officer disguise if some effort is put in.
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Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
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Re: Security buffs

Postby CPTANT » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:37 pm #505556

I am highly in favour of gear buffs over job specific traits. Job specific traits are unintuitive and break consistency.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby MisterPerson » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:51 pm #505559

I meant disguises in general. Sure you can get a passable one, but you're always going to have issues like the wrong PDA, ID, backpack, radio, jumpsuit, etc. that are FAR more obvious than stuff like this.
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Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Re: Security buffs

Postby knacker48 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:06 pm #505577

I am hugely against permanent, non-transferable buffs of this level. Sure its fine if sec heal when they eat donuts cause its incredibly minor but something of this level is way too much. It also great discourages people from changing jobs and becoming sec officers themselves as they know they'll never have all the benefits that round start officers have.

That said if you are dead set on doing this please make it an implant so if someone does manage to kill an officer, drag their body into maint, do some ghetto surgery to get the chance to take their implant (maybe something as low as 20% chance under ideal conditions), then that person has earned it. As for whether or not you should be able to get more of them I'd say it'd have to be something not easily obtained, like a limited amount that HoS would start with or a prohibitively expensive crate from cargo that requires HoS access

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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:16 pm #505579

I am not going to make security officers more of a loot target.

I also do not consider arguments to tradition.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:01 pm #505586

oranges wrote:I am not going to make security officers more of a loot target.

I also do not consider arguments to tradition.

What do you think of tying to buffs to an implant that "burns out" when the officer dies, and is in limited supply?
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Shadowflame909 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:01 am #505625

I think those buffs are going in the completely wrong direction. Unless the purpose is for them to stop grey shirts from harming them with their own weapons.

That ling who's stabbing sec officers from the back and running around in a different disguise every 2 seconds. or that traitor whipping out his holoparasite that barrages the hell out of a sec officer certainly won't be affected by this at all.

So ultimately. The Idea's just alright. I don't think it'd have any more influence over the game then the rules do though. Or should.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:22 am #505628

oranges wrote:I am not going to make security officers more of a loot target.


As mentioned before in this thread by more than one person, tying any gear to a loyalty implant check would allow any new gear additions to be restricted to security while allowing for access to be transferred for new recruits or stolen with effort by actual traitors. Johnny McGreyshit wont bother with getting the required implant to use implant locked gear, but antagonists might.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Kangtut » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:53 am #505633

PKPenguin321 wrote:What do you think of tying to buffs to an implant that "burns out" when the officer dies, and is in limited supply?


Having an implant that you can buy or hand out would just lead to powergamer captains or HoPcurity rushing the brig at round start to give themselves an advantage. While a trait may not be ideal, it is the best option we have if we are trying to keep sec from being more of a loot pinata than they already are.

BeeSting12 wrote:I disagree, this makes disguises impossible.


An invisible quirk wouldn't make the disguise impossible. Most people get away with disguising themselves as sec or the captain without ever putting in a mindshield implant. They won't have time to react if you can run up on someone quick enough . They'll see your outfit before you baton them and by that point it won't matter that they see what is out of place. Someone who is mindshielded could still pass as sec with this buff since checking for it would require someone to either try to disable you or try to pull a cuffed person away from you. Both of these would require some kind of notice in the chat field to be made apparent too. It would be harder if officers did display some kind of message to give away their ability to shrug off stamina damage, but things have gone to shit anyway if you are getting hit with stamina damage while dressed as sec.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Dawson1917 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:27 am #505657

I don't think giving players magical immunities or resistances to various mechanics is a fair way to balance. Sec officers should most definitely not be immune to shoves and disarms as it's arguably the most skill-based fighting present in TG, and will make any possibility of masterfully overpowering a seccie practically impossible. If you lack the skill to use or resist the basic aspects of combat in this game, perhaps you aren't ready to be playing the job whose job it is to fight antags and tiders.
Halved stun times against sec officers is lame. People shouldn't be immune to the weapons they themselves use. I want stuns gones, but for everyone, not bootleg meth inside every sec officer's bloodstream.

The issue of tiders vs security on TG is a cultural problem of which the main solution, at the moment, is to "git gud" and for new players not to jump into security before they understand the basics of the game for "unga me is authority".
We all know why security is rarely played by any veteran players; it's not rewarding. The greatest kick anyone playing sec can have is through powertripping and going overboard while arresting non-antags, while everything else in the job is supremely unfun. That's not good for obvious reasons. You wait around all round until an antag starts killing people and go deal with them, or you spend your round stunning tiders. There is no other content. Security can't even deal with most of the non-player threats against the station since they have no weapons. Think of all the times someone has screamed "Sec to xenobio there's a space carp smashing in!!" only for sec being unable to deal with it unless the armory is opened for them over a fish.

Halved stamina damage - basically ignores most balance changes involving stamina, shouldn't require being shot 4 times with a beanbag slug before being downed.

Immunity to shoves/disarms - absolutely terrible, for the love of god don't, this is what riot armor is for (riot armor should have its slowdown removed so it becomes an actually useful piece of equipment for dealing with tiders, who won't have guns anyway) and will make security effectively immune to what is now the most major part of melee combat for anyone who doesn't have a stunbaton or esword. I think riot armor becoming useable is an adequate enough solution as anyone tiding frequently in the round can be responded to by giving sec officers riot armor to go deal with them.

Innate nodrop - not good for the same reasons as stated above, if someone is skillful enough to bait you infront of a wall and get in a shove they should be rewarded by a split second for them to grab your weapon before you do. Sec officers walking around with their weapons out for no reason are very obviously trying to be dickswinging authority chuds and deserve getting humbled with a shove. Don't wave your gun around in the hallway. The same officers who do this are likely too new to be any good at dealing with an antag regardless.

Immunity to the shove stun while on the floor - I can sort of get behind this, but it doesn't make much sense

Buffing armor - sec officer armor is actually quite good, it just isn't noticed because any time a sec officer is being killed it's generally when they've been stunned and are being beaten to death. Armor generally doesn't matter at all because combat revolves around stuns and even miners with 70% melee resist aren't noticeably that harder to pummel to death because regular punches are enough to kill anyone during the duration of a stunbaton's stun. If you do buff sec armor, I imagine laser % would be the first choice, as there isn't much laser resistance available to sec officers despite lasers being their main lethal weapon. I don't see adding any more than 5-10% extra melee/bullet resistance to sec armor being necessary.

Edit: VG-style alarms whenever a sec officer gets attacked, especially if it says their location, further exacerbates the long-running issue of it way too fucking easy to catch an antag killing someone. 0.5 seconds to scream ";HELP" alerting the entire server to your plight, AIs being able to instantly jump to every crewmember not in maintenance, doctors with pocket crew monitors having real-time health and location information on everyone (you said you plan to nerf this and i am 100% in favour), maintenance always being super crowded so you can never commit a kill on highpop without being walked in on, etc etc. If you can manage to surprise a lone sec officer in maintenance, you shouldn't get dunked on by 5 more security goons and ten validhunters (if the alarm is blared over common) rushing to your location before you can even strip the bag off your victim.



(nerf fire extinguisher slips for being the most spammable and braindead way to own sec on the planet)

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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:13 am #505664

The game can't be fair all the time.

Halved stamina damage - basically ignores most balance changes involving stamina, shouldn't require being shot 4 times with a beanbag slug before being downed.

by design

The issue of tiders vs security on TG is a cultural problem of which the main solution, at the moment, is to "git gud" and for new players not to jump into security before they understand the basics of the game for "unga me is authority".

and we can improve it by code changes

will make security effectively immune to what is now the most major part of melee combat for anyone who doesn't have a stunbaton or esword.

again, exactly by design

Buffing armor - sec officer armor is actually quite good,

Probably not going to buff armor.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Arathian » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:27 am #505666

Shadowflame909 wrote:I think those buffs are going in the completely wrong direction. Unless the purpose is for them to stop grey shirts from harming them with their own weapons.

That ling who's stabbing sec officers from the back and running around in a different disguise every 2 seconds. or that traitor whipping out his holoparasite that barrages the hell out of a sec officer certainly won't be affected by this at all.

So ultimately. The Idea's just alright. I don't think it'd have any more influence over the game then the rules do though. Or should.


This is meant to help sec against greytiders, not antags. Antags rely on strength, not brute force 99% of the time. Sec doesn't need bigger guns to beat a traitor, it needs bigger brains.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Dawson1917 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:29 am #505667

I really think simply making riot armor, which is used to deal with rowdy crowds and protestors IRL, better by not having slowdown will greatly alleviate the issue. The most common and easiest way to tide sec is by shoving them and stealing their things off the floor, which isn't possible with riot armor. If an antag/tider steals it for shove immunity, they become very vulnerable to being shot. Easy peasy sec buff that I don't think many people will be upset at

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Calibraptor » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:57 am #505670

I'd honestly really like to see some buffs to security, especially in the way of giving people more incentive to roll security because you're less likely to be fucked with by the average greytider.

When I roll security in a standard round there's a good 60% chance there's no HoS/Warden, and maybe one or two other officers. A 30% chance that security is populated but the other officers are powertripping chucklefucks, and the remaining 10% dedicated to the rounds where the security department doesn't make me want to space myself.

Although removing conversion game modes would also solve this problem imho.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Kryson » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:54 am #505671

I think removing the slowdown from riot armor combined with a new type of gloves that prevent people from stealing handcuffed captives would be enough.

Even giving them an martial art on top of that would probably be fine

Giving sec magical permanent 50% stamina reduction is a bad idea.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby LynxJynx » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:31 pm #505695

I agree with most of the changes proposed in this post except for one major part of it,
It would also grant them increased stamina damage with their fists, as well as the ability to resist shoves stunning them at all, and more importantly they no longer drop items in their active hand when they are slipped or shoved over.
I believe this a terrible addition to security. It would make security nearly unstoppable in melee combat, it prevents nearly any method of disarming security and even if you manage to disarm them there fists can then do increased stam damage. This makes it nearly impossible for revs to fight security because they would hardly be able to engage them in melee combat. Security essentially becomes unstoppable melee tanks. Even if you could manage to get something to fight them at ranged and stay out of melee with them THEY WOULD STILL HAVE DISABLERS TOO.Adding these buffs to security would completely overbalance the power security has in melee combat which is arguably one of the most prevalent forms of combat on TG currently.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby MisterPerson » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:32 pm #505699

Kryson wrote:Giving sec magical permanent 50% stamina reduction is a bad idea.


Why?
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Shaps-cloud » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:37 pm #505700

On the topic of stamina, as it relates to how much sec will benefit from increased regen, is there any plan to make stamina damage more common (like how attacking people on Goon uses up stamina for each hit iirc)? Other than a few chems and the boxing gloves, stamina is mainly used by disablers and non lethal shotgun loads right?
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Re: Security buffs

Postby LynxJynx » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:46 pm #505709

MisterPerson wrote:
Kryson wrote:Giving sec magical permanent 50% stamina reduction is a bad idea.


Why?

I think the reason being is once sec is immune to being stunned from shoves and will no longer drop their active item in hand giving them a 50% stamina reduction would make it nearly impossible to down a security officer short of damaging them to crit. It would make stun prods useless against sec (because from my understanding they plan on changing stun prods and rods to stamina damage) and even if you could get a disabler or shotgun to fight them they then take reduced stam damage from that too

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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:28 pm #505729

Shaps-cloud wrote:On the topic of stamina, as it relates to how much sec will benefit from increased regen, is there any plan to make stamina damage more common (like how attacking people on Goon uses up stamina for each hit iirc)? Other than a few chems and the boxing gloves, stamina is mainly used by disablers and non lethal shotgun loads right?

yes, 99% of stuns will end up being stamina based instead and we'd like to make stamina a more interesting mechanic as well (such as having a sprint mode that makes you move even faster than run but drains stamina)

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Re: Security buffs

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:50 pm #505734

MisterPerson wrote:I meant disguises in general. Sure you can get a passable one, but you're always going to have issues like the wrong PDA, ID, backpack, radio, jumpsuit, etc. that are FAR more obvious than stuff like this.

All are entirely possible and easy for 2 TC

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Booktower » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:15 am #505787

oranges wrote:If you continue your negative approach, you are going to be put on post approval.

You can criticise an idea without coming off like an angry boomer

This is your only warning

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Booktower » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:09 am #505791

Making the pulling/fireman carrying changes part of the gloves seems like a good idea to me too. Insuls will still be the powergamer's go-to item, and the abilities aren't that great for non-sec anyway.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Hierophant » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:08 pm #505805

If the driving purpose behind this change is to stop sec officers from being loot pinatas, then this should instead be taught through an item in the Warden's locker so new officers have to go to the Warden to receive training. This means if you don't start as sec and there's a shortage of officers, you still have a decent incentive to get a job change.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby MisterPerson » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:06 pm #505814

wesoda25 wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:I meant disguises in general. Sure you can get a passable one, but you're always going to have issues like the wrong PDA, ID, backpack, radio, jumpsuit, etc. that are FAR more obvious than stuff like this.

All are entirely possible and easy for 2 TC

I still hold that this isn't a real problem, but ok, even if it is, we can fake the messages too.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Re: Security buffs

Postby SkeletalElite » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:56 am #506086

Here's my idea:

Security Spawn with The Fundamentals of Security, is either a martial art or an implant. Doesn't matter.
There's only 1 or 2 spares located in the armory.
You can buy one for a very high price at cargo. It has a mind-shield restriction too. If its an implant it wont work without a mindshield, it its a martial art you can't learn it without one and the book is one use. This means its acquirable but distributing it like candy isn't viable as you need mindshields in addition to buying the already expensive item itself.

As for the effects.

Stamina Damage Reduction I was thinking 25%-35%
Faster Stamina Regeneration 10%-25%
Instant Aggressive Grabs
No drag slowdown for restrained people
Harm intent punches do stamina damage (not as good as their other tools obviously) unless the person is already stunned, then they do damage.
Except for the instant aggressive grabs, this stuff makes it easier for sec to deal with tiders but not antags. Most antags will be using lethal force rather than stamina damage. The only major exception I can think of is the E bow, but I think the e bow's stamina damage is high enough that it won't make a difference and will still be good. Instant aggressive grabs will be useful even against antags, but is not unbeatable. The most common source of antags using stamina damage is from hijacked security equipment, but I think that's acceptable as reducing security loot pinata seems to be something that is wanted anyways.

Also in terms of sec buffs I though about a buff to sec huds. Right now sec huds don't have much tangible combat information besides "is this a bad guy." I thought maybe adding a stamina health bar to sec huds would be good. Give sec huds the ability to see through tear gas and add some tear gas to the armory.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Davidchan » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:27 am #506094

I really don't see how any of this is a good idea. Numerous times it's been proposed giving direct benefit to jobs like medical to make them innately better at healing people and that was shot down every time. Why does Security get the pass? They actually have armor, numerous stun items at their disposal as well their implants + HUDs to easily be able to identify an impostor on the security team.

If these buffs are actually aimed at making security better vs greytide, perhaps the smart approach would making changes to discourage security from angering the tide (ya know, by giving them actual policy and rules to abide by to justify their ability to imprison or kill unruly crew members.) If you wanted to make Assistants WORSE at combat, that would be fine and even a welcome change that players who play greytide do so with something akin to Clown Clumsiness or reduced stats compared to other jobs that actually contribute.

If the argument is that security is just ineffective during conversion modes, perhaps it's because SS13 wide once a convert is confirmed security bunkers up and lets the snowball happen without ever once considering they could implant and arm volunteers from the crew to improve their odds.

TL;DR why are we making security better at combat after repeatedly shooting down ideas and mechanics to make other jobs better at their stick?
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Hierophant » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:23 pm #506318

Following up from Davidchan, citations used to fine Assistants are a good start but if they don't have money in their accounts then valuable items could be confiscated to pay off the difference as an example.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby donutstation » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:27 am #506421

make security roles require 300hrs - no more newbs in sec, no more fun police, no more idiots getting pushed into every wall they stand by, making people come up with absurd code changes

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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:14 pm #506467

there is not enough players for that

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