/tg/Station 13

So in all the history of the server, we've always had a "main" engine for our maps. Solars, turbine, TEG, tesla/singulo, and most recently the SM. Any station will come pre-built with a basic engine setup mostly complete already, only requiring basic steps to activate them. However, I think this is overly restrictive. It guarantees a huge bias to the engine type that is already pre-built, offering little option or interactivity to the engineers setting up power. Combine this with two other issues. One being that current SM engine setups provide way too much power to the station for very little effort. Two being that the supermatter requires more atmos knowledge than engineering knowledge, despite engine construction and maintenance being engineering's responsibility. All these issues combined make me think that we need to make a big, but fairly basic change to the engine room and secure storage.

The change I propose is as follows: Make the engine room completely empty. Put some material stacks(metal/glass/purple glass), cable coils, pipes and filters, unanchored rad collectors and whatnot in there to facilitate construction, but apart from that have it use bare plating in the current allotted area. Secure storage will now contain locked crates that contain a PA, tesla and singulo beacons, and a supermatter shard. Perhaps restrict the lock to CE access if necessary, although secure storage already needs CE access or an AI to open it anyway, so this may not be necessary. Engineering level ID should be enough to open a crate. After that, an engineering crew should be expected to fully set up the engine of their choice using the materials available. The space that secure storage occupies may need to be increased to compensate, but there's usually a sizeable maintenance area next to secure storage that could be repurposed, as well as space in the engine room lobby if need be.

This would solve a few issues. One being that power generation is currently very overloaded while taking almost no effort to set up. Solars, backup power, inducers, and maybe even xenobio cores should be enough to maintain power until an engineer has finished a more powerful engine setup. Another issue this would solve is a case of ennui amongst engineers. After wiring solars and setting up the SM, there isn't a whole lot for an engineer to do until people start blowing holes in the station. This gives engineers a more mid-term project to complete in order to massively benefit the station. Thirdly, it gives more variation in potential power generation. At the moment, you almost never see anything besides the SM being used, despite having all these other viable options existing and being maintained in the code. It also gives newer engineers more things to learn and try out, causing people to stick with the job for longer and continue doing useful things with the job for longer.

It also gives the potential for more to go wrong, which I also think is a good thing. An improper engine setup(done accidentally or by sabotage) can and likely will cause rounds to end earlier through more organic means, which I think is a net positive. It would also give more use to the singularity beacon traitor item, which is currently next to useless.

The only real downside I can see with this proposal would be twofold. One being QOL for the rest of the station. Although I believe a station can live off solars for a not-insignificant amount of time, so there shouldn't be much issue if the engineers slack on engine setup. The other potential issue is that it would increase the burden of knowledge and effort for engineers. However, I don't necessarily see the latter issue as a negative. A massive amount of things to learn and do in this game is exactly what makes this game as good as it is.



tl;dr: remove premade engine setups, give engis the option and materials to build their engine of choice from scratch

Huh. This is a pretty intriguing idea, and a very ambitious one. I have a few questions about it, as well!

Firstly, would you imagine any significant changes to any of the engine types? Giving each a different niche / style of some kind would make sense, and from my personal knowledge it seems like they're pretty good at that already- though Tesla and Singularity are quite similar, right? Maybe one of those could be reworked in some way.

Also, you mention backup power, too- what would that look like, and what would be different between a backup / low-power-mode station, a standard-powered station, and an extra-powered station?

I'm generally in favor of seeing different engine types, but having the engine room completely empty will cause engineers to fight each other over their favorite autism engine to build.
What instead would be nice although I'm unsure how it'd work with how map loading and job assignment is handled is having the roundstart Engine be a CE preference selectable in the character setup screen, similiar to preferred department assignment for security officers.
If there's no CE, it'd just be random.

Problem with this is that the SM would never work. I've tried, and setting up a proper, safe (no, your one tile abominations don't count as safe) takes a lot longer than the time the SMES take to drain.

That CE preference is a pretty good idea. What I was imagining for a bit was having it be a sort of 'voucher' item, like the one miners start with- it'd either spawn in the CE's office or somewhere else in engineering. The voucher could be used to pick which engine kit you want, and it'd be delivered via supply pod- like that item for the musician quirk. Problem with that is I wouldn't want it to get too heated either- without a CE it'd probably be a mad rush to pick the engine. Don't think it'd be great for departmental health.

Also, maybe some things can be pre-built, still? Biggest thing that comes to mind there would be having a pre-setup radiator system, for stuff like the SM and TEG. Having to go out and set that up manually sounds more tedious than it'd be worth, I think. Also, maybe include some other kind of fast-construction mechanism?

cant wait to play assistant and rush the supermatter shard in storage to ruin everyones shift

Picture if you will, not just a blank room but a chunk of the station missing, there's a little computer next to this void and some power wires leading to it. Someone with CE access can walk on over to this little computer and push a button. A large shuttle like object will dock with the station, this "shuttle" contains a partially assembled engine such that your average normie could set it up to run at basic capacity. its JUST de-constructed enough that a big brain engineer could make some killer setup.

The CE's locker contains a voucher good for one free reroll of the engine, cargo can order vouchers that have a SPECIFIC engine tied to them or a random engine voucher at a discount.

GuyonBroadway wrote:Picture if you will, not just a blank room but a chunk of the station missing, there's a little computer next to this void and some power wires leading to it. Someone with CE access can walk on over to this little computer and push a button. A large shuttle like object will dock with the station, this "shuttle" contains a partially assembled engine such that your average normie could set it up to run at basic capacity. its JUST de-constructed enough that a big brain engineer could make some killer setup.

The CE's locker contains a voucher good for one free reroll of the engine, cargo can order vouchers that have a SPECIFIC engine tied to them or a random engine voucher at a discount.

I think this would be really cool, but if someone doesn't choose an engine within five minutes, the SM should automatically spawn.

edit We'd also have to make it so each engine is roughly equal at its most basic setup and nerf the tesla/singularity since it's fairly easy to set up a ton of those instead of optimizing the SM or TEG.

Im not interested in supporting an idea like this from a code and game design standpoint.

I'd rather have one engine and make it more complex, such as SM feeding gas and heat to turbines to generate the station power.

BeeSting12 wrote:edit We'd also have to make it so each engine is roughly equal at its most basic setup and nerf the tesla/singularity since it's fairly easy to set up a ton of those instead of optimizing the SM or TEG.

FloranOtten wrote:Problem with this is that the SM would never work. I've tried, and setting up a proper, safe (no, your one tile abominations don't count as safe) takes a lot longer than the time the SMES take to drain.

Given that the SM and TEG are capable of far more power than the Singulo/Tesla once they've been optimized, I think the extra work to set them up should be warranted. I mean in theory, you could set up a double PA setup in the space allotted if cargo is feeling cooperative enough to send you an extra, but rewarding interdepartment cooperation like that should also be a thing. Plus, it's pretty dangerous to have two singulos/teslas contained. Can you imagine the horror that would ensue when they both get loose?

As for the comment on it taking too long for a good SM setup...I'm pretty sure even a single person with a decent idea of what they're doing could make a safe setup in time assuming solars have been set up beforehand.

oranges wrote:Im not interested in supporting an idea like this from a code and game design standpoint.

I'd rather have one engine and make it more complex, such as SM feeding gas and heat to turbines to generate the station power.

Then why even have the other engines in the code at all? Why didn't the tesla/singulo just get outright deleted if they're not intended for further use?

Having to set up an engine from scratch seems like it'd provide more than enough complexity and engagement. A single person could have a PA-based engine set up within a half an hour if they're just running through the motions. Longer if they're not used to it yet. I don't think there's any need to make any of the current engines more complex, we just need to make people actually have to build them rather than have it come pre-built. Keep in mind, most of the engagement and fun for engineers comes from actually building stuff. On top of that, I still think that the SM is still too reliant on atmos knowledge, when it's meant to be an engineer's job.

Picture if you will, not just a blank room but a chunk of the station missing, there's a little computer next to this void and some power wires leading to it. Someone with CE access can walk on over to this little computer and push a button. A large shuttle like object will dock with the station, this "shuttle" contains a partially assembled engine such that your average normie could set it up to run at basic capacity. its JUST de-constructed enough that a big brain engineer could make some killer setup.

See above point. Part of the point of this change would be that the engine of choice doesn't come pre-built. The massive power gains gained by constructing one of these engines should require more effort.

Assume for a second that this gets implemented- what kind of pros / cons do you see for each type of engine / setup? Would going back and adding stuff to / tweaking the older engines like Tesla and Singularity be part of the plan, too? Ideally I'd like to see each type of engine get unique benefits and drawbacks, again assuming that this does become a thing. ^^

gallowsCalibrator wrote:Assume for a second that this gets implemented- what kind of pros / cons do you see for each type of engine / setup? Would going back and adding stuff to / tweaking the older engines like Tesla and Singularity be part of the plan, too? Ideally I'd like to see each type of engine get unique benefits and drawbacks, again assuming that this does become a thing. ^^

At the moment, they already have pros and cons, apart from the TEG.

PA based setup: Easy to set up and understand, easy to maintain. Causes the most damage when sabotaged, lower potential output than other engines.
SM based setup: Difficult to set up safely. Difficult to maintain when using a less than safe mix. Easy to sabotage. Gives plenty of warning when sabotage does occur, so sabotage can be potentially reversed. High potential output.
TEG: lol just run fusion in a 3x3 space for unlimited power, fusion nerf when?

Singulo: Higher potential output than tesla, causes rads, pulls people into emitter fields, requires more monitoring, will almost definitely eat the crated SM crystal if it gets loose, causes the most potential destruction.
Tesla: Lower potential output than singulo, safe to work around, requires very little monitoring, still extremely destructive if it gets loose.

they're still in the code because they're legacy from when they were used seriously as primary engines.

I've been working on an idea like this since 2016, or rather, not-working on it. I coded about 50% of it and gave up

The idea was to make engineering a randomly-generated puzzle. Engineering would contain 4 special indestructible objects called tesseracts. Each tesseract has a certain input and an output - for example the input of one would be heated plasma and the output would be a monkey cube. Another tesseract's input would be a monkey cube and its output would be a burst of radiation, which you could use for power. To make it work, you'd have to jerry-rig some rube goldberg setup between the two with conveyors and atmos pipes and rad collectors. You know, do actual engineering.

I strongly disagree with the current fixed engine designs btw. All you do is memorize a setup and do it every round. Snore! That's not engineering, that's desk work.

pubby wrote:I've been working on an idea like this since 2016, or rather, not-working on it. I coded about 50% of it and gave up

The idea was to make engineering a randomly-generated puzzle. Engineering would contain 4 special indestructible objects called tesseracts. Each tesseract has a certain input and an output - for example the input of one would be heated plasma and the output would be a monkey cube. Another tesseract's input would be a monkey cube and its output would be a burst of radiation, which you could use for power. To make it work, you'd have to jerry-rig some rube goldberg setup between the two with conveyors and atmos pipes and rad collectors. You know, do actual engineering.

I strongly disagree with the current fixed engine designs btw. All you do is memorize a setup and do it every round. Snore! That's not engineering, that's desk work.

I mean, there is no actual engineering going on these days. May as well rename "engineer" to "mechanic", since all that's expected of them is to maintain preset setups and fix shit as it gets broken/destroyed. Unless something like your idea gets implemented, we should at least allow engineers to do more actual decision making and involved set up, as opposed to the current system of being locked in to one choice with almost no effort required. It really is just trivial busywork at this point.

That being said, your idea sounds like it'd be baller as heck as a sort of late game engineering project, and I honestly hope you wind up working on it again in the future. It sounds like it'd be a great test of actual engineering skill.

oranges wrote:they're still in the code because they're legacy from when they were used seriously as primary engines.

So why aren't they used seriously anymore? They're still there, still maintained, and still capable of providing their primary function. It feels extremely wasteful to not have them put towards any practical use. (no, cargo setting a tesloose in an attempt to do a bounty isn't what I'd call practical application)

because they don't have even close to the same depth of content as the SM

Would adding extra depth to the other engine types make this more worthwhile, then? I could see interesting things being done with the Tesla & SM, conceptually- maybe even add some involvements & interaction with science for those? Singularities and PAs would be good for research purposes, obviously. =P

yes that would be great, but im not exactly hopeful

gallowsCalibrator wrote:Would adding extra depth to the other engine types make this more worthwhile, then? I could see interesting things being done with the Tesla & SM, conceptually- maybe even add some involvements & interaction with science for those? Singularities and PAs would be good for research purposes, obviously. =P

That's a lot easier said than done, but if you've got an idea I'd love to see a thread or two for them. Singulo and tesla are still way cooler IMO so it would be nice if we could get them up to polish with the SM

If you want that stuff used for research, wouldn't it make more sense to have them in science instead of engineering?

oranges wrote:because they don't have even close to the same depth of content as the SM

Is setting up and maintaining the SM supposed to be an engineer's job, or an atmos tech's job? Because in its current(and probably any future) state, it requires next to zero engineering knowledge and relies entirely on basic atmospherics knowledge. Especially since it comes mostly pre-built, there's almost zero engineering/mechanics required to set it up.

So how would simply choosing and building an engine from scratch not be preferable from an engineer's standpoint? If they choose to go with the SM, they can even call in an atmos tech to do the mix/final setup for them, getting a little bit of departmental cooperation in there too. As-is, all an engineer has to do is wire solars, then fuck off for the entire round until shit starts exploding. Giving them an actual goal to do that isn't just autism forts/random remodeling would be hugely beneficial.

Engineers and atmos techs are in the same dept as far as im concerned, which is why there is no Chief Atmos tech

Someone probably already said it but SM is the only balanced engine so you’re gonna need to rework the others first.

imagine building an engine from scratch every single round

oranges wrote:Engineers and atmos techs are in the same dept as far as im concerned, which is why there is no Chief Atmos tech

They are, but expecting an engineer to set up an airmix for the SM is like expecting a doctor to make their own medicine. Two completely different skillsets that have other more "qualified" people to do that job instead.

The singularity is probably the most boring engine out of the ones currently available. There is only ONE safe setup for a singularity, and it requires a dedicated and very large space to make it function. It's also the most dangerous engine. There are a ton of ways to make it go loose ranging from insidiously subtle (turning the emitters off tends not to be noticed, turning the PA up also looses it) to instant, and it's by and far the most destructive engine. It's also very iconic of SS13 and I'd hate to see it gone.

Tesla is a little more interesting to set up since you can make containment as big and small as you want and you can fit multiple inside one containment or adjacent containments. It's very easy to keep safe so long as you have enough grounding rods and actual containment (and it's a lot easier to traitor-proof given how small containments can be). It's also hilariously destructive but generally not as fun to release, not as iconic or cool as the singulo, and tends to crash/strain the server more often than not because it's based on GoofCode and has never really been optimized that well.

Of course both of those pale to the SM, which has by and large the most interesting features and customization. It's more fun to set up the SM or Singulo as auxiliary engines anyway since it's not terribly difficult to build a sing/tesla containment from scratch... or in the former case even convert the Supermatter into a singularity containment.

I don't think there's any merit in having non-SM engines be mainline in their current state. I also think the SM has more than enough depth as it is. Basic safe setups can be braindead easy, but they shouldn't be grossly complex in that you need extensive game knowledge to make it work. Perhaps the output for the basic setup should be toned down to the point where you can't power the station on a safe SM alone - you either need to do solars or turbine with it, or do a more risky setup, or find some other additional power source for the station (like building another engine or using generators)

Honestly, after playing engineer on Delta a lot more recently, I think the idea at least has some potential to be used there if nowhere else. It also highlights my point on how the SM requires more atmospherics knowledge than engineering knowledge - because the SM is in atmos instead of the engine room. The engine room still has a fully functioning area set up for a PA based engine, and I think it's at least worth considering re-adding the PA and singulo/tesla parts to that map alone, if nothing else. In fact, it seems wasteful to not have them available on Delta. The space and resources exist, they should be made use of.

It might also be worth considering throwing in some pre-made o2/trit tanks at round start (say 1-4 randomly generated) to make use of the extra power it could deliver for faster research points.

Yakumo_Chen wrote:I don't think there's any merit in having non-SM engines be mainline in their current state. I also think the SM has more than enough depth as it is. Basic safe setups can be braindead easy, but they shouldn't be grossly complex in that you need extensive game knowledge to make it work. Perhaps the output for the basic setup should be toned down to the point where you can't power the station on a safe SM alone - you either need to do solars or turbine with it, or do a more risky setup, or find some other additional power source for the station (like building another engine or using generators)

The majority of players familiar with the SM consider it "babby's first atmos", but even an introduction to atmospherics is still a rather high wall for the majority of players. I'm not trying to discourage higher barriers of entry and big learning curves - that's ss13 in a nutshell - but I do discourage shunting something that requires little to no engineering knowledge into the engineer's engine room. Maybe if the engineer had to build the containment from scratch and an atmos tech/CE had to do the mix, pipes, air alarms, etc, then I'd buy it as a cooperative venture.

Your last point is one I agree with though, zero-risk and low-risk SM mixes should output power below what the station uses on average. That would encourage engineers to supplement the power with actual engineering projects, and encourage atmos techs to fiddle with and monitor higher risk mixes and setups.