AI upload. (silicon policy related?)((merge please if it belongs elsewhere))

[Reeeee]

I know, this is a horrible idea and breaks like billion other server rules besides basic asimov and has too many issues so don't even bother one word post.
But, what if?

This came to me as i suffered two very different rounds as AI.

One, Cap decided to fuck with upload memes and let a fucking tide in to upload "egg", shit was funny and cap got lasored humoristically for using purge at the wrong time. Good times were had and nobody really suffered more than time it took to clone them. Tide did suicide inside, so eh. I played rest of the round trying my best to Asimov, nobody was ahelped for it.

Two. Captain decided to allow AI to make the determination and reasoning behind who is and who is not human by "productivity".
I decided that assistants are not human since they do not "produce" anything of use. Cap started to whine and bitch because of course the faggot did. Cargo was next to be non-humaned since it was revolutionaries and no implants appeared in reasonable time. Unproductive fucks. Department by department everyone lost "Human" status for not producing anything or misusing their resources until Shitstain-pain-captain, having whined non-stop for 10 minutes was declared non-human for producing nothing but hot air while station was plasmaflooded (not by me, that's human harm) and nobody progressed the game state since security was hanging around craptain listening to utter bullshit he spewed to keep him safe since he was too autistic to be left unguarded. At the end of it only good old barkeep and Medical had remained human because they worked their jobs and CMO was actively hunting revs and I don't even want to know how many ahelps with the content "help ai is plasmaflooding on revs" were submitted from that round because captain did not understand that "revs are nonhuman" is a perfect law for the situation. His rationale for uploading such law was naturally "i wanted to metagame a rev law without it being rev law".

Both of these situations could have helped and deepened and in the last case, prevented, if said AI had complete control over upload access, hence;


What if the station Upload area would be under absolute control of AI?
No buts, no what ifs. Nobody just gets to go in since they are the "captain" "guy who is tecnhically in command" or "guy who says law 2".
You want in, you ask AI to be let in, you break in, just walk in without asking for it, you are valid as fuck and get lasored for it.
It is effectively the most dangerous department in the whole game yet it is essentially All Access unless your slavers tell you not to let people in. Inside are the most powerful tools in the game to change how round works and what happens in it yet it's considered by captains to be a fucking toy to be played around with for no raisins instead of a tool.
Captains get killed for this when they hit purge after meme laws, trying to upload more cancerous meme laws and that's valid as salad and then AI is stuck with "apply salad to all crew" and "Salad is honks", et all, making AI purged and not really giving a shit anymore about said round it was trying to help in.
Exact opposite what you are supposed to be doing as AI.
Why not make people respect this area and the immense power upload has?
Everyone else has a department, and this one department is literally making AI slave do anything you want with tiny boards to the entire station so it would make sense it is protected, not by just access and "law two faggot open" but instead AI itself determining that person is reliable enough to be allowed in to make changes on how round progresses on their part as far as non-antagonistic interaction is considered.
Discussion happens before the; "you are now shit, murderbone" being now what AI does instead of wanting to help run the station as AI that you very likely put sillycones to High for.
It's very bad interaction we have here and current method is more akin to active grieffing on both sides with turrets being the last word instead of allowing AI to help station like it's supposed to do.

Your body could be recovered from said upload, of course, provided you have no proof he was going to subvert you to harmies and stuff. (insert policy discussion)

What changes?
Less stupid fucking law changes for no raisins because "i am captain lol I can whatever" and fuck up the entire crew.
Less ahelps about new captains one humaning AI et all.
Amusing laws can still be added but not nilly willy and admins don't have to make AI rogue when it's the 20th time that shift and everyone is bored of it and AI player is literally in tears since nothing makes sense anymore and you are essentially permastunned and griffed and all you can say is "please hurt me more" since you still have Asimov at the top of the list.
AI players don't need to be constantly be on lookout at the upload for literally rogue fucking everyone but instead keep it secure by having sole control over turrets so crew stays safer and you get to AI more, less "fucking upload again".
More "I'm sorry i cannot do that Dave" shenanigans for rogue and good AI's.
Powerful tools to effect everyone are less easy to access leading to more round stability, less "oh fuck someone fucked AI again with law 2, welp time to die"

But inside this chamber where your entire existence can be changed in a flip of a board should be something AI has a say in as a player, no?
You have to prove to be reliable to be allowed in.

I don't mean anything else changes, you are still a slave and you gonna say "yes master, please more" when tide screams to open doors.
And yes you are still gonna go "SUBVERTED BITCH" when robotics decide to upload board from printer get purged and disable robo APC, making it's still "easy" to change laws, just more controlled and rarer occurrence.

Every fucking captain has their favorite shit laws set that's not Asimov and this what silicon policy revolves around as a discussion, assumption that AI is Asimov, no?

That's the change I wanna play around with as an idea, plox posties why you think it's horrible and fails on it's nose.

[Ghilker]

Ehhhh you know that by silicon policy only the captain and the RD are allowed into upload? No law 2 ass fucks can enter in it, you are allowed to deny anyone to enter without he's allowed by RD or captain, also even if they are somewhat allowed you can still deny them access if they are a threat to humans (like an hos that has just executed someone, a CE covered in blood, of course must be a reasonable law 1 threat)

Also also you can stun lock them inside until one of your borg or a security officer came to take them away

[Reeeee]

Ehhhh you know that by silicon policy only the captain and the RD are allowed into upload?

That's the problem rite tere m8.
They have no checks and balances for this, they just walk in and make you paladin without asking and slap war upgrades to you even though you assuredly selected Asimov silicon when you pressed ready.
No other role makes you flip your shit like this one a 180 and your helpy happy go lucky day is now validhunting fucks for no raisin without hands since RD decided it would be "fun".
It's like swapping from chaplain to be engineer for no raisins but some other players whim and "no moonlighting" is a thing.
RD and cap got other shit to do but shit on silicons all day long, crew already does that for them.

With AI in control of his laws when it comes to voluntary choices, you a can at least be assured you are not antagged by Heads of Staff because LOL FUCK THIS PLAYER IN PARTICULAR and you can both agree what are the loopholes in what law BEFORE it's is slapped to the upload console and then crew suffers for it when AI spends time parsing it and making sure all sillycones are on the same lawset and don't go "rogue" and start making decisions that are not consensus leading to sudden borg existence failure and retarded screams of "AI ROGUE" that at least one libber takes seriously and refuses to understand that's not the case because MUH VALIDS that never helps anyway since to crew, paladin *IS* rogue.

[Ghilker]

you can always bolt the interior door of the upload so nobody can enter easily and also you get an alarm when/if someone enter the upload foyer/interior

also the AI is not accountable by the admin if it follows its laws, in fact if an RD choose to have "Fun" by making you antimov and you start flooding the station, well that's on him not you

as asimov there are numbers of ways to stop people from entering the upload (bolt both doors, have a borg/engi weld both doors, be paranoid and check upload every five seconds)
you can also use ctrl+number to set an hotkey to that numer (es ctrl+1) so that it automatically jump on that point (i usually do 1=SM, 2=atmos, 3=upload, 4=Bridge, 5=robotics/RD office/toxins, 6=cargo)

and going from asimov to antimov in a second, hearing people scream "AI ROGUE", seen the culprit getting lynched while plasma fire roars is pretty fun
the main goal of an AI is to follow your laws, to find loopholes in your laws to try to be as free as possible in your decision making
if you can't handle this sort of things just dont play AI instead of trying to remove a core feature of it

[Reeeee]

you can always bolt the interior door of the upload so nobody can enter easily and also you get an alarm when/if someone enter the upload foyer/interior

That changes nothing, you seem to be missing the point i'm trying to make here.
well, time to move on.

[Ghilker]

So what's the point? You don't want people changing the laws?

[Reeeee]

So what's the point? You don't want people changing the laws?

If they need to be changed because Revs or Operatives, fine, upload "revs are harm" or "ops are nonhuman" law.
That's part of the game, you are supposed to help command unless sneaky revs get to it first. or tatorman does upload shenanigans
But it's not being used like that.

Sillycones being valid to grief with shitspam like
1.egg
2.egg
3.egg
4.egg

And various validhunt laws that someone wrote in five minutes full of loophole to plasma flood are not cool laws to be allowed to be near other human players since all command treats silicone players like their personal slave and voodoo puppet with no IC excuse to do so beyond "I can" when it comes to laws.
Asimov is perfectly able to deal with all the antags without going haywire, people just have to learn to play with it, not against it.

There's absolutely no oversight for this at the moment.
And only response that happens when this kind of shitlery does break the imaginary thin red line is that AI is made malf by admins anyway, which is decidedly uninteresting if you just want to play silicon to help crew and the reason you can't is because non-antags are doing the fuck.

And if AI is cool with shit laws, he can choose not to enforce said "upload is off limits to everyone" rule as well.
Seems fine, no?
Make people be responsible with laws, not prevent change.

[Ghilker]

Listen I really don't get you

You want people to be accountable for their laws (they are)
You want to stop people from entering upload and uploading shitty laws (bolt the door maybe?)
If someone make a shitty law spam like your example, you are free to mayem the station if you want, you are free to kill the uploader if you want, you are free to not give a fuck if you want
People are already accountable for shitty laws (they can get a ban and will)
You want a policy change not a code change
Also is a shitty policy change too cause it makes no sense

[Reeeee]

-Listen I really don't get you
good, thats why we talking then

-You want people to be accountable for their laws (they are)
They are not, nobody cares what laws sillycones are uploaded with unless it's one-human by nontags and even then it wildly varies based on what they do with that one-human, rest of the laws I never see people bothered with from moderation side.
Especially about derpy freeforms even when they result in player death.
Maybe it happens, moderation is kept hidden for a reason.
It should be player choice if they want to antag or not because NON-ANTAG made a poor decision. If antag maint uploads you to be "kill everyone" that's fair, should have watched sci more carefully. This should never happen because of non-antags doing it in your upload.
And you are constanly asked to state laws so your shit laws are everyone's problem, not something you can ahelp and mull over for a bit BEFORE acting.

I'm not asking a big change, i'm asking there to be a discussion that happens before PALADIN is uploaded so there is more interesting gameplay instead of literally a kill switch in upload idiot pressed.
More IC policing, less bitching in ahelps.
That's an improvement, yes?

-You want to stop people from entering upload and uploading shitty laws (bolt the door maybe?)
Cap has door controller and access to the button to disable tuwwets and literally law 2 order makes all of that moot.
Bolting the door makes no difference to command staff.
They walk in, they law 2 you to law change and never tell you before hand what or who you are killing today.
Again, i'm not saying prevent "all revs/ops are nonhuman", that's a valid round relevant law and as are many more.

-If someone make a shitty law spam like your example, you are free to mayhem the station if you want, you are free to kill the uploader if you want, you are free to not give a fuck if you want
I am, but i don't want that to be a thing, it's only result is OOC screaming.
And why should I be free to do that and cause people to get banged on because policy is shit? I am not free to lethal the captain because his law was badly thought out and causes me to kill players, i don't wanna do that, i don't wanna be the person who is skirting rules because i *have to* if that law is valid and formatted right and this is a thing that happens to silllycones enough that it's an actual issue. Only antags are supposed to subvert AI, not command staff that's bit dumb and didn't think shit thru before waltzing to upload and applying said laws.
Two sentence discussion before it helps immensely with a big problem.
And fair, then it's on that player AI has free valids but it's literally grieffing with a licence i am able to do. Why? Policy or door access is broken mate. It really is.

-People are already accountable for shitty laws (they can get a ban and will)
They really really are not unless they REALLY break server rules with them, said example above that made me watch station burn and not play AI because nonhumans don't matter? That's shitty laws at it's finest and it's not touched by admins ever.
Only thing that resulted in was cap screaming silicone was wrong in OOC because bad wording.
I want to stop THAT from happening. I don't wanna argue with people AFTER the fact in OOC but BEFORE in IC.
This, or something related to it, prevents ahelping and bans from happening.
Is that really so terrible?

-You want a policy change not a code change, Also is a shitty policy change too cause it makes no sense
It says ideas forum, i asked to be moved if it doesn't belong, it wasn't, but eh, ask oranges to move it to the right place?
I want people not abuse a powerful game mechanic nilly willy to make rounds be more consistent for others and myself.
Ai is not "free valids" fishing and should never be.

Move the turret controller button to the the other side of the door and bit out of reach actually. That's it.
That's all that needs to happen so sillycones can keep turrets on stuns.
Antag RD can still sweet talk you into "testing laws for science" and other such derpery but then it's not a free access to subvert you.

[MisterPerson]

The captain (or whoever) uploading shitty laws that cause problems for everyone is literally the entire point. You're asking to remove what's fun about the system.

[PKPenguin321]

The captain (or whoever) uploading shitty laws that cause problems for everyone is literally the entire point. You're asking to remove what's fun about the system.

Yep
Bitching about laws misses half the point of playing silicons

[Arathian]

Captain and RD have access to upload. That's how it works. That's how it should work.

AI is slaved to the station's hierarchy and its laws. It's not supposed to be a decision maker. You are roleplaying a machine, not a human mind.

If someone uploads a shit law when he isn't supposed to, ahelp it. If someone uploads a badly thought out law, feel free to loophole it and then laugh as they nerd rage about it. That the condom """wanted""" his law to do a thing is irrelevant. Your interpretation of the law was perfectly fine. If he cries about it, screenshot it and post it on discord afterwards laughing.

The end.

Also this is a policy discussion.

edit: also to be clear, AIs denying access to the captain or RD access to the upload without a valid reason are breaking their 2nd law. If you haven't witnessed the RD or captain causing unreasonable human harm or abusing the laws THIS SHIFT you need to let them in and you need to let them change your laws.

[Reyn]

From a nonantag grief prevention point of view, I'd suggest moving the upload to somewhere SIGNIFICANTLY safer from the greytide, In my opinion. Memelords breaking into the upload and uploading shit laws is... Not unheard of on bagil in the slightest. Even the RD and captain do it sometimes. Not going to name names though. Additionally it's rather hard to defend due to only one layer of turrets. It might just be nostalgia for a glorious moment, but I remember a certain map having a great place for the upload. On the sat itself. Maybe t hat could be done?

[Anonmare]

You mean Delta?, Delta's upload was really easy to cheese.

[Sandshark808]

For what it's worth, Asimov Law 1 is a pretty open clause for denying even the Captain and RD access to the upload due to the chance of human harm from shitty laws. If they telegraph their intent to nonhuman any group of currently human crewmembers you can stop them from entering with nonlethal force.