DobbyChem and You: Plan(t)s Moving Forward!

A place to record your ideas for the game.
Post Reply
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

DobbyChem and You: Plan(t)s Moving Forward!

Post by Cobby » #519121

I figured this would be a good idea to train of thought here so I can clean my hands of "no word on what cobby expects medical/chem to be".

Reminder: if you are looking for Cobbychem FEEDBACK, Please visit the appropriate section/thread instead of posting here!


What is the overarching goal?

As a general statement, the goal of the current healing rework people have dubbed as "CobbyChem" is to transition our current, passive healing methods into more active methods (in this case, surgery). In term's of chemistry's role, this does NOT mean I want to remove healing from chemistry/botany/bartender/etc. This DOES however mean I want those to be more conscious decisions and weighed against working with a Doctor, who is the "priority customer" of the changes.

Consequently, this is meant to establish the doctor role as something more than a glorified door remote to make it more engaging and dare-i-say fun, with fun being overcoming the challenge of patient turnaround and keeping the station afloat from your sterilized, 99.99% bacteria culled throne.

Chemistry

Chemistry, from the point of healing, has bottlenecked medbay for quite some time now. Up until Tend Wounds has been made free access and the slow transition of C2's appearance, I think I can safely say chemistry was medbay. Naturally, this means to raise the power of doctors I could either 1) Arms race against the two or 2) slice power from chemistry to provide room for medbay shining. Since I'm a firm believer of the speed to take people out of death is as important balance wise as the speed at which you can bring people to death, I went with option 2 and am continuing to do so.

Initially I had figured I could convert some to base meds to C2s while keeping C3s gated behind availability, but recently I found that to be quite difficult. So here are my current goals for Chemistry
  • Convert ALL C3s to C2s
This is so that every chem has a foundation and is, from the getgo, expected to play with (and perhaps against) other chems. The idea that reagents are gated by difficult to make within the machine has been largely removed on top of the fact that the other balancing mechanic surrounding chems, energy, has been made easily mitigatable.
  • Add Modified Version of C2s
This (in conjunction with phasing out the C3s) is a recent Idea I had where there would be 3 types of modified states for C2s that would allow for a more vertically-indepth system of chemistry. The only blockade I have right now is that I do NOT want these to be made just inhouse of chemistry, but in our current iteration of the game there isn't many outlets where I can put "limiting reagents". Cargo, Botany/Mining are the big 3 sources of unique reagent sources not able to be duplicated within chemistry. The issue then becomes a matter of these departments can simply do chemistry's job just as easy as they can given the nature of said department, but as of right now I don't consider that an issue for the purpose of the rework, even though I do consider that an issue for the overall health of the department. Do note if chemistry was reworked to be more difficult I wouldn't mind these finding their way into the department with some work.

So, what are the types?

I have tactfully named them after the arene sub pattern. In terms of how they'll interact with the nomenclature, they'll just be prefixed with the appropriate letter (IE O-libital, P-aiuri, etc.)

O(mnizine)- O-types are what I'd like to be amplified versions of the C2s. They heal more BUT they also endanger the user more. Default Recipe will be the C2 and Omnizine (ergo an indirect hit to Omnizine).

M(ining?)- M-types are what I'd like to be upgraded versions of the C2s. They heal less of their dedicated damage but they will also heal their sister damage type (Brute/Burn :: Oxy/Tox). This will allow chemists/doctors to have more control over what health downside the patient will receive. Default Recipe will be C2 and (something from mining maybe?).

P(... no clue sorry)-P-types are basically the tamer versions of the C2. They heal less while also doing less (not 0, less) damage to the user. Default Recipe will be the C2 and (whatever here).

The goal here is to give each type their own purpose and functionality on top of the unique natures of each individual C2, so there is never "one right answer" to any situation in regards to what chemistry should output. These are also subject to be mixed and matched as with all chems to find the "sweet spot" of healing/damage unique to each situation.

"But Cobby, The C2s right now are pretty negligible in terms of damage so why would I even bother with this anyways?"

I would like to bump up some of the organ damage numbers in response to my testing and the general feedback I've received. I still haven't figured out the sweet spot in a number that doesn't delete people, but one that also makes it not ignorable either. C2's damage should definitely be something you consider in your decision tree (or if there's no other option but to you it, something you prepare to handle).

The Rest Of The Chem World
  • Phase out omnihealers. I don't like the idea that everything is fixed with one chem, so I'd like to see these either be C2'd or otherwise changed so they don't heal all damages at once per iteration. This also applies to crit chems. If someone has taken the opportunity to damage you with a variety of damages (or perhaps strike with another damage while you're already damaged), that should mean something. Omnihealers throw that out of the window.
  • Look at Niche Healers. My current plan is to give them the same C2 treatment, I just haven't looked into each one to determine how to come up with good C2 strategies for them. Some of them are hardly made.
  • Look at Non-Chem, Reagent-based healers. Your god'sblood, tomato juice, milk, etc. They don't all need to be C2'd but their healing should be reflective of chemistry's healing output and the relative availability to get these. Again, the rework is about directing these guys as healers to the door in favor of active methods.
Medbay

Medbay, department of my life, fire of my heart. My sin, my soul. Med-Bay-Ee: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Med. Bay. Ee. It was Med, plain Med, in the morning, standing a grand 100 tiles on some stations. It was Medi in Nyaspeak. It was "That Fucking Department" at github. It was Medical in the code. But in my arms, it was always Medbay. Did it have a precursor? it did, indeed it did. In point of fact, there might have been no Medbay at all had I not loved, one year, an initial department. In a princedom by the sea. Oh when? About as many years before Medbay was born as my age was that summer. You can always count on a coder for a fancy prose style. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, exhibit number one is what the seraphs, the misinformed, simple, noble-winged seraphs, envied. Look at this tangle of thorns.

There is nothing greater than being a healslut.

I would like to imagine that, for the most part, i'm satisfied with the current outcome of medical. Surgery has certainly came a long way and perhaps the elephant in the room is that surgery is actually used for more than just cutting out brains in the purple department now. I would like to explore more organ surgeries that repair the organ vs. requiring replacements, and I would like vital organs (to the player, not necessarily to keep the character alive so basically include ears/eyes) to have a cybernetic counterpart so if you can trade material costs for convenience in not having to remove and store organs.

I do still want to cull the white medkits as being powerhouses of healing, and limit them to low HP remedies (<20HP) one can use to quickly but not instantly patch themselves up. I would like to see BPs/Ointments to be refluffed/structured as a self-surgery permissible version of tendwounds.

I think the skill system will open up an opportunity to further solidify the MD role, so i'm looking forward to that as well!

Other Healing Methods
I haven't looked too much into healing that isn't involving chemistry/medbay, so these are all subject to change in the future. Rule of thumb is that I'd like for the healing outputs to use a similar thought process to Chemistry's in that healing amounts of worth should involve a choice since it is competing with going to the dedicated heal department.

As for antag based healing, I would like to see traitors not have many options for healing without using subterfuge/deceit to be healed by someone else. Cult I think still also heals for no reason besides "you're now converted", so maybe i'll look at that as well. Ops have the magic healy gun so whatever, and Ling has fleshmend which is BTFO'd by fire.


Anything here is subject to change but i'll keep it updated. If it's on here, hold me to it until I change it here. Reminder this was just me word vomiting my thoughts so you guys can read them, things not listed here doesn't mean I don't want them or that I haven't given them previous thought.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
Sandshark808
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:56 pm
Byond Username: Sandshark808

Re: DobbyChem and You: Plan(t)s Moving Forward!

Post by Sandshark808 » #519134

Will you be addressing radiation at all with these new chems?
Image
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: DobbyChem and You: Plan(t)s Moving Forward!

Post by Cobby » #519137

seiver?
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
Sandshark808
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:56 pm
Byond Username: Sandshark808

Re: DobbyChem and You: Plan(t)s Moving Forward!

Post by Sandshark808 » #519138

Cobby wrote:seiver?
Simply not good enough to deal with the level of contamination we experience. This might be more an indictment of radiation as it currently stands, but Seiver will kill people with heart damage before curing them of even the average amount you'd get poisoned from approaching engineering on a """good""" plasmaman shift.
Image
Kryson
Code Maintainer
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:04 pm
Byond Username: Kryson

Re: DobbyChem and You: Plan(t)s Moving Forward!

Post by Kryson » #519189

Just having all the chem recipes be the C2 + magic chem is the most boring and unimaginative implementation possible.
User avatar
Super Aggro Crag
In Game PermaBanned
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:47 pm
Byond Username: Super Aggro Crag

Re: DobbyChem and You: Plan(t)s Moving Forward!

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #519195

You mispelled cobbychem in the title
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Dr_bee
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:31 pm
Byond Username: DrBee

Re: DobbyChem and You: Plan(t)s Moving Forward!

Post by Dr_bee » #519227

Kryson wrote:Just having all the chem recipes be the C2 + magic chem is the most boring and unimaginative implementation possible.
The fact that alot of the chems are ACTUAL REAL LIFE MEDICINES makes he shitty recipes even worse. I am normally for your changes cobby but this particular one is bad.

Though omnizine does need a nerf.
Calomel
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:14 pm
Byond Username: Ryumeme
Location: Dead on a hallway somewhere.

Re: DobbyChem and You: Plan(t)s Moving Forward!

Post by Calomel » #519235

I have already spoken about this on teh other threads, so i will keep it brief.

I would honestly do away with tiers to start with (they encourage ignoring chems), and
instead move towards having chems affect different thresholds (some for paper cuts (0-20),
some for severe but not fatal wounds (30-70) and some for panic-use only (~80+))

This will make every chem potentially useful, reduce the power of Chemistry by forcing it
to go through different phases to actually have an effect, and raise significantly the
value of triage by a competent doc.

Other sources of healing, like Mining stuff, can be nerfed by only working in a certain area (lavaland)
or by having a small threshold. In general this will make Chemistry weaker while keeping it potentially valuable.
"Purging chemicals at incredibly hihg speeds."
Image
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: DobbyChem and You: Plan(t)s Moving Forward!

Post by Cobby » #519269

Sandshark808 wrote:
Cobby wrote:seiver?
Simply not good enough to deal with the level of contamination we experience. This might be more an indictment of radiation as it currently stands, but Seiver will kill people with heart damage before curing them of even the average amount you'd get poisoned from approaching engineering on a """good""" plasmaman shift.
if shaving 10%/25% + max 45 off each iteration isn't doing it idk what to tell you
Dr_bee wrote:
Kryson wrote:Just having all the chem recipes be the C2 + magic chem is the most boring and unimaginative implementation possible.
The fact that alot of the chems are ACTUAL REAL LIFE MEDICINES makes he shitty recipes even worse. I am normally for your changes cobby but this particular one is bad.

Though omnizine does need a nerf.
anything that gets brought into the C2 system will be using the new naming scheme, ergo not bound to real life meds.
Kryson wrote:Just having all the chem recipes be the C2 + magic chem is the most boring and unimaginative implementation possible.
they're just tweaks to the chem so it's not like they need to be wild. I mean you could make them """"interesting"""" but currently magic recipes is the entirety of chem barring few temp thresholds. It's not in my purview of the healing rework to expand upon the act of performing chemistry.

something something horizontal depth vs. vertical.
Calomel wrote:I have already spoken about this on teh other threads, so i will keep it brief.

I would honestly do away with tiers to start with (they encourage ignoring chems), and
instead move towards having chems affect different thresholds (some for paper cuts (0-20),
some for severe but not fatal wounds (30-70) and some for panic-use only (~80+))

This will make every chem potentially useful, reduce the power of Chemistry by forcing it
to go through different phases to actually have an effect, and raise significantly the
value of triage by a competent doc.

Other sources of healing, like Mining stuff, can be nerfed by only working in a certain area (lavaland)
or by having a small threshold. In general this will make Chemistry weaker while keeping it potentially valuable.
the issue I find is that chemistry wants to play the role of medical too, as good as medical, without doing the things medical has to do in terms of handling the patient. Not that i'm not okay with just telling them to bugger off :p

I do kinda think arbitrary health thresholds make chemistry feel too gamey though.

My hope for putting everything at the C2 level will be that the only thing differentiating them would be the gimmick associated with the chem and the corresponding downside, so that you're encouraged to make more by the simple nature of their differences (IE sometimes it might be bad to give a guy a liver damaging chem, or a chem that relies on other chems being in the system, etc.). The "enhancers" further this decision tree (maybe it's necessary to amp the healing, maybe I don't need to do a lot of healing, etc.)

End goal would be to have no C3s, just less drastic C2s (effectively removing any tiers).
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users