/tg/Station 13

- Let each unique lawyer (roundstart/latejoin) have the ability to take 1 legal action per round.

- The two options (available via PDA or ID-locked console in law office) would be (1) File a habeas petition and (2) File indictment papers

- Each option would require a summary of the pleading and have the option to attach exhibits (papers, photos, recordings... maybe bagged evidence that would send an image with a full description)

- Completing the file will then send it to Centcom Court (name pending) for review, at that point ghosts will be able to view the filing (and exhibits) and cast a vote on whether to approve it or not.

- Now normally that would cause a problem because ghosts are just bored people out of the round who will tend to reflexively vote YES on stirring drama. However my genius workaround is to have the server keep track of the average Yes % vote for the previous X days and set that as the requirement to have the vote pass. So if 80% of people vote yes on average, your filing will need to secure 80%+ votes to succeed. This means that legal filings will inevitably have a ~50% success rate and lawyers will need to produce above-average work if they want to succeed.

- However, if the vote passes that doesn't mean its over. That simply means that Centcom will send a judge (ghost-role) to have a formal hearing on the subject. Habeas petitions will involve the release of a prisoner, Indictments are reserved for Security/Captains that have committed high crimes. A notification will go out that the judge is holding a hearing and the defense (typically security) will need to appoint their own representative (another lawyer, or any willing member).

- After the hearing the judge will reach a verdict. If the verdict favors the plaintiff, that means the judge will order security to release a prisoner or have the indicted individual surrender to Centcom custody. Security can refuse but the judge will have the option to call in a Centcom agent to carry out the judge's order, further resistance may prompt a full response from Centcom. The judge may have other unique options for carrying out their order too, perhaps including the ability to summon a prison (must be in sec/gulag territory) or perhaps even clone a wrongfully executed individual using a DNA backup kept at Centcom.

- If the plaintiff is successful they will get a gift from the Syndicate as gratitude for handing NT Security a humiliating defeat in court. If the defendant is successful they will get a gift from NT for their efforts in protecting the corporation.

Additionally:

- This action would not be available in certain situations. Warops, high casualty rates, imminent shuttles, an existing legal action, etc. will disable this feature.

- The judge can make their own decision but are expected to stay IC and play the role with a modicum of effort. Highpop could potentially summon a panel of judges who will decide by majority.

- Maybe have statbus track legal victories? A board in law office with the most successful lawyers mite b cool.

- How Centcom handles crime is tricky. A shorter term sentence might feel pointless given the effort required, but a longer sentence might as well just remove them from the round. I am favoring a "full removal" from the round and having them be in a cell of shame that you can view post-round when you arrive at Centcom. Since indictments are reserved for high crimes, it's already the type of shit that security itself doles out summary executions for.

- As a nice feature the lawyer would also be able to summon a judge for any "case" as long as both parties consent to the judgment (i.e. both sides voluntarily participate). This would largely be handled on RP-grounds and could be a lot of fun.

As neat as this sounds, this doesn't sound like something that can be 100% enforced with code. What this looks like to me is a template for an admin event, rather than a code feature.

Given how annoying shitcurity often is it would be great if lawyer actually could'v serve as a thorn in their ass. Even adding "call lawyer" button to the cells and forcing shitcurity to always allow lawyer in at least once would go great distance. But sure adding more fluffy stuff even better.

At this point security is pretty much a no RP job for griefers where lawyers are HOS pets. Someone should force those armed uga bugas to learn f-ing space law and make sure that an absolute retard who strips down plasmameme gonna get demoted, preferably into gulag

I see the following "code enforcement" issues:

1) "Getting the judge to do something remotely approximating an actual judge." Right now I just see this as a feature. Sometimes the judge will show up and be a shitter and everyone will just have to embrace the drama that ensues. Like any other ghost-role, sometimes admins will have to intervene or role-ban if the person starts breaking the rules.

2) "Reaching a verdict", this one is mostly about finding the balance between magic and RP. I would anticipate the legal actions feature to require a specific name selected from a list of candidates. On the magic end of things we could just give the judge certain powers like the ability to literally summon the subject of the legal action to the courtroom... or we could simply force them to RP and include the possibility of a "default judgment" if one side doesn't show up. On one hand if we make things too procedural people will typically just ignore it because the effort required exceeds the entertainment value, but I could see some middle-ground stuff that gives the judge a lot of control over what goes down in the courtroom (Robo-Bailiff, being able to put witnesses on the stand with the click of a button, being able to broadcast the trial on Holograms, etc.) that would make things more immersive and entertaining.

3) "Enforcing the verdict", this one is the toughest. While part of me deeply enjoys watching Security get bent over by Centcom, ultimately this is still a feature that's designed to give the lawyer more significance and make the courtroom someplace meaningful... if it always devolves into Security v. Ghost Role Agents then it's not really accomplishing that goal - so maybe I would err on the side of having it just be automatic after all. Instead of Centcom trying to take the War Criminal Captain out of the round, successful indictments would simply "restrict" the defendant with unbreakable cuffs for a set amount of time or provide a limited selection of mid-grade punishments (e.g. forced pax disability or clown disability... or giving the plaintiff's lawyer a remote with access to a sedative implant in the indicted, etc...)

This is a really cool post and I like all of it.

However,

OFQ wrote: Someone should force those armed uga bugas to learn f-ing space law

if lawyers are gonna try starting enforcing actual space law rather than giving me a way to round remove retards like Krokodil every round I'm just gonna kill them roundstart.

I agree with your third issue strongly; those would discourage this kind of behavior at least somewhat.

Adherence to a non-moderated wiki page hmmm...

Cobby wrote:Adherence to a non-moderated wiki page hmmm...

there's precedent for pages of this kind being used to defend a ban

lol, he should have edited the wiki to say "anything (his character name) does is permissible under space law" during the appeal process

teepeepee wrote:

Cobby wrote:Adherence to a non-moderated wiki page hmmm...

there's precedent for pages of this kind being used to defend a ban

The security policy only came up because of the conversation they had about not executing people randomly, and asking for permission first if you really want to do it. The actual defense was based on him not escalating at all and just street-sweeping cargo members for the QM being mean to him.

Cobby wrote:Adherence to a non-moderated wiki page hmmm...

Space law actually protected https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law

stop playing the rp jobs and complaining when they have no mechanics robustin for gods sake, stick to detective

Sandshark808 wrote:

teepeepee wrote:

Cobby wrote:Adherence to a non-moderated wiki page hmmm...

there's precedent for pages of this kind being used to defend a ban

The security policy only came up because of the conversation they had about not executing people randomly, and asking for permission first if you really want to do it. The actual defense was based on him not escalating at all and just street-sweeping cargo members for the QM being mean to him.

it's not policy though, it's a fucking guide
I crapped the bed trying to defend the guy while not peanut posting and got yeeted and didn't feel like posting again but peanut compliant

oranges wrote:stop playing the rp jobs and complaining when they have no mechanics robustin for gods sake, stick to detective

Oranges you literally made the antag freeze so that people would work on improving crew content, and now someones trying to do that for lawyer so why are you getting mad about it?

That's one way to look at it

crew CUNTent

OFQ wrote:

Cobby wrote:Adherence to a non-moderated wiki page hmmm...

Space law actually protected https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law

thank god,

never forget https://tgstation13.org/wiki//index.php ... ldid=20130

knacker48 wrote:

oranges wrote:stop playing the rp jobs and complaining when they have no mechanics robustin for gods sake, stick to detective

Oranges you literally made the antag freeze so that people would work on improving crew content, and now someones trying to do that for lawyer so why are you getting mad about it?

oranges man grumpy.

The big issue with a lawyer lawyering is that a lawyering lawyer tends to get lynched if his lawyering interferes with Sec. To get the lawyer lawyering properly would require admin to keep their pimp hand strong.

The problem with lawyers lawyering is the amount of LRP shitters disregarding their presence(as well as space law).

Once in a blue moon you can have a good lawyer round, if security is well staffed and well played.

had this round as sec where the lawyer dressed in rainbow clothes and sat in front of the warden blasting this annoying synth guitar and the warden told him to stop and then i told him to stop and then we shoved him and took it because eh wouldnt stop and then he made a stun prod and attacked us and then called me out in ooc for being shitsec because he was a good lawyer who dindu nothin and i dont want those kind of people to have any kind of IC power because the people who play lawyer are overwhelmingly just greytiders with sec access

can't even scream rape on /tg/ anymore though.

you'll be banned for trivializing realistic horrors that some random person on /tg/ probably went through.

PKPenguin321 wrote:had this round as sec where the lawyer dressed in rainbow clothes and sat in front of the warden blasting this annoying synth guitar and the warden told him to stop and then i told him to stop and then we shoved him and took it because eh wouldnt stop and then he made a stun prod and attacked us and then called me out in ooc for being shitsec because he was a good lawyer who dindu nothin and i dont want those kind of people to have any kind of IC power because the people who play lawyer are overwhelmingly just greytiders with sec access

You got "asked him to stop" and "shoved him" reversed. If you don't want to get called shitsec, maybe try leading with asking first and acting like a tider later?

Shit like that makes me see more and more merit to Robustin's idea, though. Security definitely needs more oversight, because the HOS and Warden aren't always willing to keep the lads in line. It's often "me and my boys against the station, and I know for a fact my boys aren't antag," so they can literally get away with murder.

deedubya wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:had this round as sec where the lawyer dressed in rainbow clothes and sat in front of the warden blasting this annoying synth guitar and the warden told him to stop and then i told him to stop and then we shoved him and took it because eh wouldnt stop and then he made a stun prod and attacked us and then called me out in ooc for being shitsec because he was a good lawyer who dindu nothin and i dont want those kind of people to have any kind of IC power because the people who play lawyer are overwhelmingly just greytiders with sec access

Shit like that makes me see more and more merit to Robustin's idea, though.

really???

PKPenguin321 wrote:

deedubya wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:had this round as sec where the lawyer dressed in rainbow clothes and sat in front of the warden blasting this annoying synth guitar and the warden told him to stop and then i told him to stop and then we shoved him and took it because eh wouldnt stop and then he made a stun prod and attacked us and then called me out in ooc for being shitsec because he was a good lawyer who dindu nothin and i dont want those kind of people to have any kind of IC power because the people who play lawyer are overwhelmingly just greytiders with sec access

Shit like that makes me see more and more merit to Robustin's idea, though.

really???

Really. Some sec players are so fucking delusional, and they get away with being shitters because there's no external oversight.

deedubya wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:

deedubya wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:had this round as sec where the lawyer dressed in rainbow clothes and sat in front of the warden blasting this annoying synth guitar and the warden told him to stop and then i told him to stop and then we shoved him and took it because eh wouldnt stop and then he made a stun prod and attacked us and then called me out in ooc for being shitsec because he was a good lawyer who dindu nothin and i dont want those kind of people to have any kind of IC power because the people who play lawyer are overwhelmingly just greytiders with sec access

Shit like that makes me see more and more merit to Robustin's idea, though.

really???

Really. Some sec players are so fucking delusional, and they get away with being shitters because there's no external oversight.

i meant really as in that particular story made you want that??? the crazy greytiding lawyers should have oversight over sec??

PKPenguin321 wrote:

deedubya wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:

deedubya wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:had this round as sec where the lawyer dressed in rainbow clothes and sat in front of the warden blasting this annoying synth guitar and the warden told him to stop and then i told him to stop and then we shoved him and took it because eh wouldnt stop and then he made a stun prod and attacked us and then called me out in ooc for being shitsec because he was a good lawyer who dindu nothin and i dont want those kind of people to have any kind of IC power because the people who play lawyer are overwhelmingly just greytiders with sec access

Shit like that makes me see more and more merit to Robustin's idea, though.

really???

Really. Some sec players are so fucking delusional, and they get away with being shitters because there's no external oversight.

i meant really as in that particular story made you want that??? the crazy greytiding lawyers should have oversight over sec??

It does, because I remember that particular event and know for a fact you're wrong. That's why I think sec needs more oversight.