Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

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zxaber
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Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by zxaber » #532658

Right. So like most ghost roles, Ash Walkers are required by the rules to follow their fluff text. The problem is that the fluff text is overly ambiguous, which makes enforcement hard. For reference, the current fluff text is as follows, bold added for emphasis;
You are an ash walker. Your tribe worships the Necropolis. The wastes are sacred ground, its monsters a blessed bounty. You have seen the lights in the distance... they foreshadow the arrival of outsiders that seek to tear apart the Necropolis and its domain. Fresh sacrifices for your nest. Drag the corpses of men and beasts to your nest. It will absorb them to create more of your kind. Don't leave your nest undefended, protect it with your life. Glory to the Necropolis!
The standard and most common interpretation by admins is that Ash Walkers should not be invading the station unless their nest has been destroyed (presumably by the crew). But that's really more of a "read between the lines" stance, since the whole reason the flavor text was changed was to prevent them from invading the station. Taken literally, the text could imply that simply walling off the tendril is enough (defended, it would be) and then you're free to just do whatever and go murder as much as you can with your pointy stick. I myself have enforced the "standard" interpretation for the sake of consistency across the admin team, but not everyone on the admin team knows or agrees with this stance.

I've been given permission by Cobby to, amidst the antag freeze, update the flavor text to be more concrete. As such, I'd like to compile opinions from as many people as I can to figure out what the community actually wants from Ash Walkers. I'll list my opinion below, but I'll go against it if the majority pushes in the other direction. It's worth noting that there were reasons that some deemed it necessary to confine the Walkers to Lavaland, and I'll address the ones I'm aware of.

--

The way I see it, Ash Walker invasions were fun for both sides of the conflict. Ash Walkers, once on station, got to try and do as much damage as they could, while the crew with their superior weapons (and glass-proof shoes) usually had an edge on defending. It gave security a target to shoot at, and was actually something the AI could support killing for once. I admit that I don't have a lot of experience in Cargo, who's back door was the usual primary location of the NT/Walker war. But as Miner and Robo I often joined in on the defense to some extent (and I wouldn't suspect a Gun Cargo to have a particularly hard time against Ash Walkers).

The two main issues that I recall people having with Ash Lizard invasions were the constant respawning and at least one incident of mechs being given to the Walkers. The former issue, where Ash Walkers can continuously respawn as long as there's a semi-regular supply of bodies to sacrifice, could be solved by limiting clients to a single egg per round. You get one Ash Walker spawn, and that's it. Alternatively, a cooldown between the last death and the next egg would at least slow things down, and it's also been suggested to make each egg cost more bodies than the last. The latter issue, in which a lizard robo allegedly gave a group of Ash Walkers a bunch of mechs to wage war with, could be solved by making the Walkers unable to use mechs. They're already unable to use most (if not all) firearms, so it wouldn't really be that drastic of a solution. That might be thinking too narrowly (the next incident could be chem grenades), but I don't know that it's really that deep of a problem anyway. There's precedent that knowing arming antags as a non-antag is against the rules, and if they are an antag, there are pre-existing ways to bring in ghosts to do your bidding (subverted AIs for mechs, golems for grenade throwing or other things).

Allowing Ash Walkers on the station also allowed for more gimmicky things. I often would try to hack and sneak my way into the morgue and steal bodies without being noticed, and I'm told at least one player thought it was fun to try and take the jobs of crew members without anyone noticing. These gimmicks are fun because Ash Walkers are valid for being antags, and so getting caught was often a death sentence.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by Mickyan » #532688

I enjoy ashwalker invasions/infiltrations much more than free golem wars which are somehow still allowed despite having the same issues as ashwalkers (respawn metagaming) and ten times as much firepower

I think ashwalkers are fairly well balanced as a minor antagonist, enough to be given free reign on how they approach relations with the station (which shouldn't necessarily imply open hostility, though they're still valid to the crew), setting a respawn limit for ghost roles has been a long time coming which would definitely help with the respawn abuse
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by knacker48 » #532943

I loved doing invasions as an Ashwalker due to the fact that all the odds are against you.
  1. You start with nothing but spears as a weapon, and since KA's deal huge amounts of damage to you you're fucked if you even get hit once or twice in a one vs one.
  2. Even if you did manage to get a KA yourself you can't shoot, and that goes for any other gun you might find like the antique laser in the winter dome ruin.
  3. You also start with no armor and are limited to what you can craft, usually bone armor and bracers, and what you can scavenge, usually from legion corpses and the odd tendril.
  4. Aside from a single medkit your only healing options are cactus fruit, which heal very slowly and fill you up fast and legion cores which become useless if not used fast enough.
  5. It's very difficult to farm tendrils since you kind of want to keep them alive for corpses but also since you usually can't kill the monsters fast enough without dying. The only one you can reliably kill by yourself is watcher tendrils since you can mine around them and wait for them to wander off.
The only real advantage that ashwalkers have is numbers and multiple respawns, which I've found only to be relevant when the nest was particularly close to the mining base or someone was trying to kill the nest.

But lets say the ashwalkers are doing well and they're becoming a problem for the crew. What are some good counters to ashwalkers that stomp them into the ground?
  • Borgs: It is very hard to get much flash protection on lavaland, and since ashwalkers aren't human they can easily flash and kill as many ashwalkers as they can find. It also doesn't hurt that ashwalkers themselves how no access to emps meaning they have little counterplay to stop even one borg.
  • Mechs: As mentioned previously with no access to emps and not much damage to begin with any decent mech can take on multiple ashwalkers at a time and easily tank their spears. Oh and while there are plent of weapons to choose from for your mech, whats particularly good against ashwalkers?
  • Flashbangs: Like with eye protection it is quite difficult to get ear protection on lavaland. With a few flashbangs you can clear out rooms of ashwalkers in minutes. And how would you kill them you ask?
  • Lasers/Shotguns/insert any gun here: Sometimes the simplest solution is best. Never bring a spear to a laser fight. If you're fighting in any long corridors with no cover you're pretty screwed as an ashwalker.
I'm sure there are more hard counters to ashwalkers but those stick out as the ones that decimated me when I played. Even then I still had fun scavenging tendrils for the odd armor, grabbing a dead miner's ID and just quietly sneaking onto the station for supplies like medkits and cables for bolas.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by knacker48 » #532946

Oh yeah and glass shards.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by Anuv » #532954

Make them allowed to attack the station if they're attacked. Also make an Ashlizard game mode where they get a lot more stuff and have to build defenses against the crew at the 30 minute mark and survive
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by Lazengann » #532963

Ash walkers would always just walk to engineering to flood plasma and sabotage the supermatter because somehow spear chucking cave people know how atmospheric and power generation equipment works on a space station

Keep em off the station
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #532994

unga bunga!
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by Kel-the-Oblivious » #533041

Just gonna post some old idea I had for ash walkers https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14863
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by RaveRadbury » #533042

I think the respawn mechanic should stay as-is. When I get the opportunity to try Natural Disaster mode again I'll be using them as antag and I'd prefer that ghosts get as many opportunities as they can to massacre the crew.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by zxaber » #533054

For the record, the only immediate change will be the fluff text. Spawning mechanics, if they do need adjusting, will be in a later PR either with additional permission, or else after the antag freeze. As an aside, for use in the Natural Disaster mode, you could probably add in a subtype of Ash Walker (Angry Ash Walker?) that allows respawning. They don't spawn every round, so you'll already need to have some custom code for Ash Walkers as is.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by RaveRadbury » #533068

That's a great suggestion, thank you. I'm probably going to have to enlist a mapper to create a unique ruin for them as well, so this would fall in line with that.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by Istoprocent1 » #533077

Lazengann wrote:Ash walkers would always just walk to engineering to flood plasma and sabotage the supermatter because somehow spear chucking cave people know how atmospheric and power generation equipment works on a space station

Keep em off the station
That could be fixed with a policy. Disallowing the use of WMDs, flooding the station or messing with the engine. Their primary goal should always be finding more bodies to feed the tendril (and not just "omegalul free anteg").
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by knacker48 » #533078

Lazengann wrote:Ash walkers would always just walk to engineering to flood plasma and sabotage the supermatter because somehow spear chucking cave people know how atmospheric and power generation equipment works on a space station

Keep em off the station
How were they even getting that far? If there was anybody in cargo they would be outed the moment they arrived on station.

Unless it was lowpop in which case I can see just about anybody breaking into all the semi deserted departments.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by Arathian » #533085

Lazengann wrote:Ash walkers would always just walk to engineering to flood plasma and sabotage the supermatter because somehow spear chucking cave people know how atmospheric and power generation equipment works on a space station

Keep em off the station
Make their primary objective to get bodies. Mass flooding to kill everyone doesn't accomplish that.

So ashlizards that go up, kill 2-3 people and pull them down are allowed but plasmaflooding would be a bwoink. This is already (in practice) what is mostly allowed.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by Istoprocent1 » #533086

Arathian wrote:So ashlizards that go up, kill 2-3 people and pull them down are allowed but plasmaflooding would be a bwoink. This is already (in practice) what is mostly allowed.
Speaking of whats allowed. I have seen plenty of ash walker raids and what not, but when I was trying to find any actual policies about it, the closest thing I found was:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... er#p517862

Are there any other policies or rulings beyond that?
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by Kryson » #533095

Allow them to invade the station with no restrictions.

It was always a positive experience for me when the station got invaded. This is not paradise station where you can choose to be completely safe all the time.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by Dr_bee » #533122

The only restriction I think should be given to ashwalkers invading the station is grand sabotage. So no plasmaflooding or overloading the SM or anything like that. Stealing supplies should be encouraged, supplies also being the bodies of crewmembers dumb enough to die to ashwalkers.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by zxaber » #533187

Istoprocent1 wrote:
Arathian wrote:So ashlizards that go up, kill 2-3 people and pull them down are allowed but plasmaflooding would be a bwoink. This is already (in practice) what is mostly allowed.
Speaking of whats allowed. I have seen plenty of ash walker raids and what not, but when I was trying to find any actual policies about it, the closest thing I found was:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... er#p517862

Are there any other policies or rulings beyond that?
That's pretty much it, far as I know.

Policy is that Ash Walkers (like most ghost roles) have to follow their flavor text. Flavor text falls under code and dictates what rules are in place for the role. As such, what might normally be considered a policy issue is (and has been) treated as a code issue.

Current flavor text implies that the lizards shouldn't be invading, but it's a rough implication at best, and requires the prerequisite knowledge of why the flavor text exists as it is in the first place. It was made intentionally ambiguous to allow for ash walkers harassing the mining outpost and fighting fauna, but it's so ambiguous that enforcement of "no-invading" feels arbitrary. I'd like to change it to be as close to what the community (both players as well as the admin team) want it to be.

And yeah, there's totally room for prohibiting mass destruction in the flavor text (something something "invade their stronghold if you must, but avoid excessive destruction -- the Necropolis would certainly disapprove of littering the planet with such ugly falling ruins."). That would make plasma floods and SM sabotage against the flavor text, and thus punishable.
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Re: Ash Walkers and their Fluff Text

Post by knacker48 » #533225

zxaber wrote: And yeah, there's totally room for prohibiting mass destruction in the flavor text (something something "invade their stronghold if you must, but avoid excessive destruction -- the Necropolis would certainly disapprove of littering the planet with such ugly falling ruins."). That would make plasma floods and SM sabotage against the flavor text, and thus punishable.
I think that's a good compromise. That along with the "Don't leave your nest unprotected" will at least stop people from going solo and invading the station, requiring you to at least create a few eggs and wait until you have one or two people to hang back while you raid.

And although I don't think it's necessary, if they prove to be a bit too much we can always nerf ashwalkers in the future, from preventing them from using mechs to putting cool-downs on their respawns.
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