Rework Cult Stun

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Rework Cult Stun

Postby wesoda25 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:25 pm #538900

I think most people agree its too OP in its current state. Now that antag freeze is up we can change it, but how?
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:27 pm #538904

100% agree.

Idea: make it stun, or mute, but not both.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Sheodir » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:28 pm #538905

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:100% agree.

Idea: make it stun, or mute, but not both.


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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby wesoda25 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:42 pm #538912

I don't want the stun to be a thing, and cult is dependent upon the mute.

I don't wanna give it the stun baton treatment where it does stamina damage and knockdown, but it might be the best way.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:49 pm #538919

If removing the stun is considered a debuff, how about making it an area of effect mute to counter that?
The mute is a lot more interesting than the stun part, but both together is just a retarded easy button.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Sheodir » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:55 pm #538922

wesoda25 wrote:I don't want the stun to be a thing, and cult is dependent upon the mute.

I don't wanna give it the stun baton treatment where it does stamina damage and knockdown, but it might be the best way.


Cult needs some way to restrain the poor sod. Although it might just teach people to make prods instead.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby NoxVS » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:18 pm #538928

wesoda25 wrote:I think most people agree its too OP in its current state. Now that antag freeze is up we can change it, but how?

as much as I hate the stun, they sort of rely on it. The problem with it is using it in combat. They still need a powerful method of silently converting because getting discovered too quickly is gg for them

One thing I think would be cool, instead of a stun, give them a spell called like "Enthrall" or something that paralyzes the person its used on if they aren't mindshielded. Instead of falling down, enthralled people would remain standing and holding their items, but be unable to move, talk, do anything. Taking too much damage or having it run out would break the spell but still leave them with the temporary cult talk effect the cult stun wearing off has.

You would now have a stun that works for conversion, cant be used to dunk sec or command right away and remove them from the round (Becoming a construct is pretty much round removal), it cant be used as effectively in combat as the person wont drop their things and will wake up if attacked

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Dr_bee » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:06 pm #538942

Why does cult need a fucking snowflake stun spells when they can just make a fucking stun baton? Cult is just rev on fucking antag hugbox mode.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby NoxVS » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:37 pm #538958

Dr_bee wrote:Why does cult need a fucking snowflake stun spells when they can just make a fucking stun baton? Cult is just rev on fucking antag hugbox mode.

you get revealed right away and steamrolled. Rev has a way to instantly convert someone. Rev has less traces if the act isn't directly observed. You stun someone, cuff them, drag them to maint, they start yelling about you and you get swarmed, they find your dagger or runed metal, gg cult dead

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Mickyan » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:42 pm #538962

Cult spells could become less powerful as the number of cultists increase, so that conversion becomes harder as the number of cultists increases and it's not just Revolution+
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Cobby » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:37 pm #538979

i've already said this could be changed DURING the freeze wtf
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby zxaber » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:51 pm #538981

We could make drinking holy water offer a lasting resistance/immunity to cult stuns. It would be a natural way to allow early-game conversions while offering a method for people to steel themselves before a push into cult bases during the later fighting.

Only worry is saddling too much on the Chaplain. Chap already handles deconversions for the mode.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:19 am #539041

zxaber wrote:We could make drinking holy water offer a lasting resistance/immunity to cult stuns. It would be a natural way to allow early-game conversions while offering a method for people to steel themselves before a push into cult bases during the later fighting.

Only worry is saddling too much on the Chaplain. Chap already handles deconversions for the mode.


This is a good idea and actually would provide a counterplay to the ole stun and gibrune that makes assaulting cult bases basically suicide. Granted the fucking gibbing should be removed in the first place, and cult itself removed for being a shitty version of revs, but at least it would make cult less shit.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby NecromancerAnne » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:58 am #539043

I'm formulating something but I've not completely come to a conclusion as to what it will be. Suffice to say, I don't want to completely gut their ability to snatch and grab people but I definitely want to severely hamper their use of the stun as a combat tool.

But honestly, the stun alone isn't the only thing I'd really want to see changed. The other bit is endless resources. One of the coolest elements from the now dead clockcult was that they had a resource pool they needed to fill. We should really move to implement similar mechanics into cult. They have so much free gamer gear.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Sheodir » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:28 pm #539061

NecromancerAnne wrote:I'm formulating something but I've not completely come to a conclusion as to what it will be. Suffice to say, I don't want to completely gut their ability to snatch and grab people but I definitely want to severely hamper their use of the stun as a combat tool.

But honestly, the stun alone isn't the only thing I'd really want to see changed. The other bit is endless resources. One of the coolest elements from the now dead clockcult was that they had a resource pool they needed to fill. We should really move to implement similar mechanics into cult. They have so much free gamer gear.

They could use blood as their resource. Have a refuel rune which checks for blood content in whatever is on top of it. Also means they'd have to balance conversion with deblooding people for moar resources. Medbay cult would get stronger, ofc, but it'd also make it a priority to protect it, creating an interesting dynamic.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:49 pm #539124

Or just have mindshields block the stun, This would give a reason for actually mindshielding people as all it currently does is make the person instantly explode instead of get converted on the conversion rune.

I REALLY hate that fucking instagib rune.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby deedubya » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:44 pm #539143

Leave it as-is, but make it so that if you take any damage while the stun/mute is in effect, the effect wears off. When the effect wears off for any reason(conversion, duration expires normally, getting toolbox'd in the cranium), any cuff-like item is stripped from you.

cult stun is now fixed, you're welcome
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby oranges » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:04 pm #539165

NoxVS wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:I think most people agree its too OP in its current state. Now that antag freeze is up we can change it, but how?

as much as I hate the stun, they sort of rely on it. The problem with it is using it in combat. They still need a powerful method of silently converting because getting discovered too quickly is gg for them

One thing I think would be cool, instead of a stun, give them a spell called like "Enthrall" or something that paralyzes the person its used on if they aren't mindshielded. Instead of falling down, enthralled people would remain standing and holding their items, but be unable to move, talk, do anything. Taking too much damage or having it run out would break the spell but still leave them with the temporary cult talk effect the cult stun wearing off has.

You would now have a stun that works for conversion, cant be used to dunk sec or command right away and remove them from the round (Becoming a construct is pretty much round removal), it cant be used as effectively in combat as the person wont drop their things and will wake up if attacked

smartest post in this entire thread.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Anonmare » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:14 pm #539178

I don't think blood would work as a resource as it's super renewable and prevelant, especially if you combine iron and bloody marys for super-fast blood regeneration. Both are easily obtainable, even without chemistry.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Sheodir » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:23 pm #539180

Anonmare wrote:I don't think blood would work as a resource as it's super renewable and prevelant, especially if you combine iron and bloody marys for super-fast blood regeneration. Both are easily obtainable, even without chemistry.

Could have to be cursed blood. A cult leader would have the ability to "curse" blood, refreshing every few ticks. Could even make the new conversion process being injected with cursed blood.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby SkeletalElite » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:59 pm #539223

I really don't think making it knockdown + stamina is a big deal. The offer rune already heals people who get converted so I don't see why knockdown spell then crit with sword/ dagger then offer rune to convert and heal isn't a fine substitute for conversions.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:14 am #539225

oranges wrote:
NoxVS wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:I think most people agree its too OP in its current state. Now that antag freeze is up we can change it, but how?

as much as I hate the stun, they sort of rely on it. The problem with it is using it in combat. They still need a powerful method of silently converting because getting discovered too quickly is gg for them

One thing I think would be cool, instead of a stun, give them a spell called like "Enthrall" or something that paralyzes the person its used on if they aren't mindshielded. Instead of falling down, enthralled people would remain standing and holding their items, but be unable to move, talk, do anything. Taking too much damage or having it run out would break the spell but still leave them with the temporary cult talk effect the cult stun wearing off has.

You would now have a stun that works for conversion, cant be used to dunk sec or command right away and remove them from the round (Becoming a construct is pretty much round removal), it cant be used as effectively in combat as the person wont drop their things and will wake up if attacked

smartest post in this entire thread.

Agree, a stun that you immediately snap out of if you take damage is actually a great idea just in general but it works especially well here. Interested in trying this
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby NecromancerAnne » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:53 am #539241

I swear to fuck that's what Kindle used to do, didn't it?

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby deedubya » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:26 am #539281

Nox's version is still abusable though, since you can just stun hand someone and have zipties at the ready to just circumvent the whole downside. My version is admittedly still a bit abusable since getting them into favorable position before you throw down can be big, but it'd be much harder to do so. Also, if it happens in a group fight, crew have a counter by literally slapping people out of it[the stun].
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:30 am #539282

deedubya wrote:Nox's version is still abusable though, since you can just stun hand someone and have zipties at the ready to just circumvent the whole downside

Make the application of cuffs snap you out of it too, then
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby deedubya » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:32 am #539286

PKPenguin321 wrote:
deedubya wrote:Nox's version is still abusable though, since you can just stun hand someone and have zipties at the ready to just circumvent the whole downside

Make the application of cuffs snap you out of it too, then

you're right, that would be a lot easier
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby confused rock » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:04 pm #539344

Being “enthralled” and stunlocked until conversion would still be super frustrating, thouth.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:13 pm #539427

confused rock wrote:Being “enthralled” and stunlocked until conversion would still be super frustrating, thouth.

Too bad? The main complaint afaik is cult stun being used to dominate in combat. It being used for conversions is intended and pretty much needed.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:42 pm #539436

PKPenguin321 wrote:
confused rock wrote:Being “enthralled” and stunlocked until conversion would still be super frustrating, thouth.

Too bad? The main complaint afaik is cult stun being used to dominate in combat. It being used for conversions is intended and pretty much needed.
Maybe it's not a great game mode if its playability hinges upon the existence of an "I win" button that guarantees a wordless, defenseless conversion.
Even on revs you can at least see somebody pulling out a flash.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:17 pm #539441

If I actually knew how to code I'd make cult like it used to be: no summon objective, they just have to convert x amount of crew members and have x escape aboard the shuttle.

Or we could up the number of roundstart cultists, remove conversion entirely, and stun too.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby NoxVS » Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:47 pm #539446

confused rock wrote:Being “enthralled” and stunlocked until conversion would still be super frustrating, thouth.

It would probably last just as long as the normal stun.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Anonmare » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:29 am #539491

wesoda25 wrote:If I actually knew how to code I'd make cult like it used to be: no summon objective, they just have to convert x amount of crew members and have x escape aboard the shuttle.

Or we could up the number of roundstart cultists, remove conversion entirely, and stun too.

The first used to be an actual goal.

The second one also happened and it wasn't well-recieved cause it was just mandatory construct cult, every cult.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:49 am #539500

why the fuck doesnt cult mode have space carp deep ones
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:03 am #539517

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
confused rock wrote:Being “enthralled” and stunlocked until conversion would still be super frustrating, thouth.

Too bad? The main complaint afaik is cult stun being used to dominate in combat. It being used for conversions is intended and pretty much needed.
Maybe it's not a great game mode if its playability hinges upon the existence of an "I win" button that guarantees a wordless, defenseless conversion.
Even on revs you can at least see somebody pulling out a flash.

Ah yeah good point remove the whole mode it is then
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby NoxVS » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:19 am #539540

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
confused rock wrote:Being “enthralled” and stunlocked until conversion would still be super frustrating, thouth.

Too bad? The main complaint afaik is cult stun being used to dominate in combat. It being used for conversions is intended and pretty much needed.
Maybe it's not a great game mode if its playability hinges upon the existence of an "I win" button that guarantees a wordless, defenseless conversion.
Even on revs you can at least see somebody pulling out a flash.

That’s another big problem with cult. No visual cue it’s about to happen. I feel like I may have come up with a possible solution to this problem. What if when you were about to use the stun spell your hand would suddenly have like a red flame covering it? So instead of just suddenly being stunned you have reaction time when you see their glowing red hand.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Flatulent » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:35 am #539554

make it paralyze
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby imsxz » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:58 pm #539589

keep in mind that cult gets rolled over a LOT even with "retarded OP" stuns, even when cult has very good players. i see it happen all the time, it happens to me all the time.i doubt a stun rework will cripple cult, but keep that in mind before we start slamming the nerf hammer on whatever cult mechanic killed us most recently.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Arathian » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:03 pm #539592

imsxz wrote:keep in mind that cult gets rolled over a LOT even with "retarded OP" stuns, even when cult has very good players. i see it happen all the time, it happens to me all the time.i doubt a stun rework will cripple cult, but keep that in mind before we start slamming the nerf hammer on whatever cult mechanic killed us most recently.


This. Cult is almost exactly at 50% winrate at the moment. It's one of the best balanced modes out there. If we are gonna go around with the nerfhammer, we should consider what aspect of them should be buffed to counter-balance that. Maybe stuns are bad(tm) but then something else should be buffed to compensate for it.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby imsxz » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:08 pm #539594

also cult and revs both have people holding something in hand before they stun you??? please stop making up facts. it isnt undetectable, it doesnt have zero counterplay. if a scary man runs out of maint with a glowing red hand you should run back instead of trying to fight him and getting stunned/standing afk and getting stunned. revs pull flashes out of their pockets with the same cue as cultists preparing blood magic. yes it sucks that you cant wear holymelons on your eyes roundstart but there's still counterplay.

p.s. if you knock down a cultist (such as via slipping) they drop their stun and have to re-equip it. es they can theoretically do it "instantly", but you can also disarm them "instantly" when theyre knocked down to hard stun them. p.s.2. behead cultists that you kill and they cant be revived with the revive rune unless their head gets reattached p.s.3. i can make a comprehensive guide about killing cult if someone wants
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Arathian » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:11 pm #539596

imsxz wrote:also cult and revs both have people holding something in hand before they stun you??? please stop making up facts. it isnt undetectable, it doesnt have zero counterplay. if a scary man runs out of maint with a glowing red hand you should run back instead of trying to fight him and getting stunned/standing afk and getting stunned. revs pull flashes out of their pockets with the same cue as cultists preparing blood magic. yes it sucks that you cant wear holymelons on your eyes roundstart but there's still counterplay.

p.s. if you knock down a cultist (such as via slipping) they drop their stun and have to re-equip it. es they can theoretically do it "instantly", but you can also disarm them "instantly" when theyre knocked down to hard stun them. p.s.2. behead cultists that you kill and they cant be revived with the revive rune unless their head gets reattached p.s.3. i can make a comprehensive guide about killing cult if someone wants


how 2 kil cult:

step 1: make a single gygax

step 2: cult is now kill

it has worked literally every time I have done it.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby NecromancerAnne » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:21 pm #539599

The comprehensive guide is pretty simple I'll be honest. Don't go into melee against cultists, who predominately have the advantage in a straight melee fight. Fight them from afar where their magic doesn't work. And use ballistics. Taking an imrpovised shotgun and just pinging down cultists with slugs is 100% a fantastic means of fighting cultists. And if they try to hide behind corners, just walk. There is no reason to engage cultists on their terms.

These are generally basics you can apply to practically all combat in space. Fighting a fools errand. You aren't fighting, you're hunting. Sneaking, following, and waiting will win you more kills than charging in blind and getting yourself slapped down. Follow blood they drip everywhere and you'll usually find the cult. Bear traps, hiding in lockers, soap under doorways, all very powerful means of catching just about anyone and especially cultists. Once you've established where they are, you can start rigging their base with traps to fight them. One of the most powerful means of fighting cultists is rendering their bases uninhabitable and pushing deeper into their bases from space. Kind of a shitty move, I know, but it works and works well. I've combat most cultists by just rendering their base of operations depressurized and everyone inside vulnerable to a PKA or being sniped with slugs and keeping the fuck away.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:00 pm #539602

How do you make an improvised shotgun
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:33 pm #539607

you dont even need a gygax, the shitty ripley amazon version can kill cult ez because lol cant stun it (a single emp wont prevent him to clamp u)

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Dr_bee » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:06 pm #539613

Arathian wrote:This. Cult is almost exactly at 50% winrate at the moment. It's one of the best balanced modes out there. If we are gonna go around with the nerfhammer, we should consider what aspect of them should be buffed to counter-balance that. Maybe stuns are bad(tm) but then something else should be buffed to compensate for it.


Stop using winrate as a measure of game mode balance or quality, it doesnt tell the whole story of a round, and also doesnt necessarily need to be a focus anyway in a storytelling roleplaying game like SS13.

Using statistics without understanding the broader implications of them leads to shitty decisions like the cult we have now.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Arathian » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:43 pm #539629

On discussions of balance (which this thread is), the current state of balance matters.

Also, I like cult. Liking or not liking cult is personal preference and, as far as I know, we haven't had any official polling on the popularity of cult.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Dr_bee » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:02 pm #539636

Arathian wrote:On discussions of balance (which this thread is), the current state of balance matters.


Winrate isnt a measure of balance in a game focused on the quality of the stories told. This isnt DOTA or a fighting game, a 50/50 winrate doesnt matter if the win or loss is unfun for the players.

Losing should be fun at best and at the worst not be cheap, cult in its current state feels cheap for whoever is on the losing side. Either the cult snowballs and the crew feels like they cant fight back at all or the cult gets outed early and its a 25 minute instant shuttle call.

Please stop using winrates as a measure of balance and look at qualitative data. Quantitative data alone often masks the whole problem.

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby NoxVS » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:04 pm #539652

imsxz wrote:keep in mind that cult gets rolled over a LOT even with "retarded OP" stuns, even when cult has very good players. i see it happen all the time, it happens to me all the time.i doubt a stun rework will cripple cult, but keep that in mind before we start slamming the nerf hammer on whatever cult mechanic killed us most recently.

im pretty sure the reason for this steamroll is because cult cant really be soloed. There are lots of OP things it has to offer but you need to dedicate yourself to it. Often you have a very experienced player who cant do everything while everyone else just mills around and gets dunked because they never even left the base.

I mean take dark spirits. It is the most blatantly overpowered and broken mechanic cult has. It literally is just metaknowledge, gives you infinite information about everything. Plenty to carry the cult. Yet so often I dont see it used.

The problem with cult is the mass of people who have no clue what they are doing

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby SkeletalElite » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:12 am #539665

I don't think zip ties should break the stun

If you they are able to stun zip tie you, you were either suprised (the intended use of the spell) or were alone (dont fight the cult alone.)

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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby Cobby » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:22 am #539711

big red hand is a visual cue tbf.

it's the same as a flash in terms of visuals if not better seen, it just also goes through everything and can't be disarmed :^)

you're not going to know someone is about to flash you if they pull it out right as they're about to do it either.
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Re: Rework Cult Stun

Postby imsxz » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:26 am #539742

dr bee please address my points I don’t mention winrate at all
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