Shuttle call gates

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OFQ
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Shuttle call gates

Post by OFQ » #539403

That's kinda offshoot from https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25406 where we discuss how any SM malfunction usually ends up in a shuttle call. But there are a lot more things like this. For example, cult or benos infistation.
OFQ wrote:The problem of premature shuttle calls can be addressed at the broth ends. Making situations that have 99% chance to end in a shuttle call more manageable (unless it's a total disaster like a tesloose or singuloth) but also punishing/preventing questionable shuttle calls by:
1. Removing AI shuttle call and borg ability to red alart. Both because AIs getting really bored at slow/green shift and bait shuttle calls but also because being ASSMOVE kinda makes it so that almost any shitty situation is a good enough reason to call it.
2. If you call shuttle under 30 minutes into the round when the half of the crew still alive + there is no catastrophic event like "IT'S LOOSE!!!" you have to get 2-3 shuttle call conformations from the heads (if there is more than a single head)
3. If should gets called without particular reason admemes (Centcom) should deny it or even demote condom for being a pussy.
I thought about it a bit more and have come to conclusion that the shuttle call mechanics would be much more fun if instead of pressing the button "time for the round to end" the crew had to prove that they actually have a serious problem. For example, comms console can have a shuttle call tab with a subcategories of disaster events like: "Blood cult activity", "Nuclear ops', "Xenomorph infestation", "Critical station integrity", "half of the crew dead or incapacitated" "We have already completed our station goals - time for a crew rotation", "hazardous environment (plasma flood, high temperature, low pressure in a large chunk of the station..)" etc. When one of the options selected, lets say - ""Blood cult activity" then CentCom will require a proof sent in via Cargonia shuttle. It can be something like a ritual dagger or other cult item. In a case of xenomorph infestation it can be a benos corpse or organs. Alternatively condom can ask CentCom for a shuttle and admemes will dispatch it manually.

At the first glance, it may seems that it will be hard to cover all the cases, but I think the "half of the crew is dead" and "station integrity is below 60%" would do. The more specific cases like "AAA BENOS ON THE STATION" designed to get the shuttle before those thresholds are reached. Besides, you can fake a threat by getting items that CentCom requests from the different sources (could be banable if abused) or actually get the station goals done.

To test this system I propose disabling the shuttle call button on Manuel when there is an active admeme so the shuttle calls will be performed via CentCom communication and admeme will come up with a condition(if any) on the spot. Then the server logs can be analyzed to generate a proper set of disaster categories and gates(requirement) to automate this system.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Stillplant » #539770

I do not believe that early shuttle calls are actually a problem. It's rare to see a round below 50 minutes that is not a team deathmatch round. Sure, early shuttle calls for stupid reasons do happen, and occasionally go through, but they don't happen frequently enough to warrant introducing a system that could potentially be gamed by the antag.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by skoglol » #539774

Shuttle is one of the biggest gripes I have with the game currently.

- Its used as the biggest counter to certain game modes, like nuke ops and cult, as well as events like xenos, swarmers etc.It is however also called for pointless reasons during events like blob, despite being unable to leave.
- Any human assistant can order AI to call it for no reason.
- We call the shuttle to end greenshifts. The round type with no threats ends with the emergency shuttle, which makes no sense.
- It is the only way to end the round, and we allow calls from 20 minutes. We cant really blame the players when code allows it.

Ideally, we should have a way to end rounds without leaving when certain goals are met, and some incentive to do so. Votes for starting round end was thrown around in a different thread. Shuttle should be the last resort, barring the nuke.
AI should not be able to call it.
We could make shuttle calls require authorization from several parties unless cetain conditions are met to help prevent imbored calls and using it as a secondary announcement.
And more.

Stillplant is wrong.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #539779

skogol 
no one wants to fix 3-4 syndibombs holes caused by ops, or a blob hole because is literally boring (maybe give engis ability to fix and decorate more easly?)
on prolonged cult rounds people just murderbone instead of converting, calling to end cancer gamemodes is fine
xenos are op and are gonna steam roll 95% of the times its either shuttle call or admins have to send ert then deathsquad and then manually end because even deathsquads have high chances of death vs xenos
swarmers are cancer and no one wants to fix the damage they cause so round ending is less boring than fixing for everyone except xenocucks

people call it during blob so they can leave faster after killing it

when shuttle is called for other reason its usually because after 50 min or 1-2h in low pop there is literal 0 interesting refreshing endgame content for most jobs (example: you build the epic tritium engine once and thats it , take a selfie with 15 freezers and never do it again)

give the crew admin immunity to mutiny if the round is still fresh and the threats have been solved but the 10h of played time captain decides to call it would solve the issues when the majority doesnt want to leave, rest is lack of content
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by skoglol » #539780

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:stuff
If there are legitimate reasons to call the shuttle, go for it. I do think we should raise the bar for what counts as a legitimate reason though, and a hole in the station should be attempted fixed first. Its only a foam grenade away most times.

Im not saying you cant call shuttle with current nukies, swarmers or xenos, but rather that their design is bad. They do force a shuttle call, which isnt fun for either party. Blob shuttle calls is another story entirely (with certain exceptions), and should be ended. I rolled captain but want to antag roll again shouldnt be a valid reason to call the shuttle.

As for long rounds, we should have a way to end it without a shuttle call. Completion of something, with a fair warning to people doing projects or a vote like was mentioned in the previous thread on this are options. I dont claim to have the solution here, but calling the emergency shuttle to end an entirely uneventful round always felt wrong to me.

This is something you will hear me say only rarely, but goof was on to something here: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/40461

Another thing is that shuttle calls are arguably not reactive enough. The 20/10/5 minute timer with potential for recalls do force crew to call it early, and be unable to recall it if it wasnt needed after all. Which is bad.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by cacogen » #539794

the crew shouldn't be allowed to call the shuttle at all before 90 minutes but it should auto-dispatch if station integrity or living crew drop below a certain percentage
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Stillplant » #539821

skoglol wrote:Stillplant is wrong.
https://sb.atlantaned.space/rounds

If we count rounds that end with "Proper Completion", that last less than 50 minutes, at time of writing, we have 129709, and 129689, from 64 rounds on the first page. This is 3 percent of the rounds.
skoglol wrote: Ideally, we should have a way to end rounds without leaving when certain goals are met, and some incentive to do so. Votes for starting round end was thrown around in a different thread. Shuttle should be the last resort, barring the nuke.
AI should not be able to call it.
We could make shuttle calls require authorization from several parties unless cetain conditions are met to help prevent imbored calls and using it as a secondary announcement.
And more.
I agree on the first point. My suggestion would be a "crew rotation shuttle", which comes at the 2 hour mark, or can be called once the station goal is completed.

The AI has unique perspective on the station which makes it best suited to assess whether a shuttle call is necessary. It is also the most secure entity capable of calling the shuttle. For those 2 reasons thet AI should retain its ability to call the shuttle. The problem that anybody can law 2 the AI into calling it can be resolved by making addendum to AI policy, that unecessary shuttle calls can be considered harmful to humans due to the stress caused by the evacuation (I'm actually rather certain that the current rules allow the AI to argue an unecessary shuttle call as harmful using the reasoning I just provided).

This "Shuttle is called to early" seems to be this communities most popular problem which doesn't exist.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by deedubya » #539829

Why are you trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist via code? Just because one out of the last hundred rounds you've played had a stubbed toe call doesn't mean the system is broken. This is coming from a person that made a policy thread advocating for harsher punishments on stubbed toe calls as well.

Basically, you're trying to turn an RP/IC issue into a code issue, rather than having the RP enforced by the admins. People get bwoinked for stupid calls when they happen. If you think a call was stupid, ahelp it. Trying to gate it behind a bunch of arbitrary bullshit(how do you even ship a xeno organ to centcom if the station is overrun and you can't even kill one?) is a poor solution to a problem that may as well not exist.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by OFQ » #539838

Usually when people call it "too early" they mean that the shuttle was called to early in the particular crisis that station currently undergo. Like skoglol said it can be abused as a way to deal with cult, benos etc. In the case of the blob it's even worse since the shuttle allows to test if there is actually a blob (since shuttle won't live if there is one)

Making the shuttle calls gated will definitely alter crew's behavior during conflicts and after them. There is literally a button for "Ah shit, I don't want to deal with this /benos/cult/space hole/ shit and I don't have to - fuck the game play". Imagine if there was a button "Build super powerful tritium SM" would anyone actually care to do it by hand? Actually, the fact that TEGs generate so much power discourages a lot of engies from messing with SM at all.

I believe, that making defeating cult/benos or fulfilling some kind of condition for the shuttle call "proving to CentCom that the situation is dire" will not only force the crew to organize and fight back instead of hiding and waiting for the shuttle (which is boring) but actually will change the outlook on those situation and make them much more fun for both sides of the conflict.

For example, with benos having to send out queen corpse or organs for unlocking death squad option (automated spawn) or shuttle evacuation - will mean that to deal with them you will have to launch assault on hive and defeat them at least once before you can go home. It is not hard and all the tools are there. The thing that makes benos op is that no one wants to fight them because there is an other potion with low risk and no reword "to just skip it and restart the game" so it doesn't feel fulfilling for anyone and people gets bored while waiting for the shuttle and call benos op when they didn't even try to organize and fight back. And on the side of benos the fact that the crew will try to steal queen organs adds more goals and focuses for you to take into the account and crate more interesting situations.

Same with cult. If, as a cultist, you know that the crew can't be allowed to collect N blood artifacts you will think about how to retrieve them back or to occupy cargonia.


Also:
- Adding conditions to the shuttle calls can help to deal with Rev rounds that can turn in absolute cancer.
- Preventing crew from just living on benos will allow to balance them around more prolonged engagement instead of "you have 5 minutes to kill the crew, her's ranged stun, mass stun glhf"
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by deedubya » #539842

Consider the fact that despite the shuttle being an "easy counter" to some of the gameplay, the crew still winds up on the losing end of said gameplay approximately 50% of the time. Cult in specific even has a counter to their counter. But yeah, despite the fact that the shuttle just "invalidates" certain things, those certain things still wind up dicking the crew half the time. How often do you see a xeno infested shuttle, a shuttle bombing, or even a cult/ops victory?

You're also forgetting an important part of the emergency shuttle. The hint is in the name. It's the thing you call for dire emergencies that would necessitate evacuation. I'll give you another hint in the name of one of the game modes you feel is "only" countered by the shuttle: Nuclear emergency. If you can't call the shuttle in an emergency without having to fulfill some bullshit arbitrary prerequisite, why bother having it at all? You're already time gated from calling it too early, so anything beyond that is just an RP/IC issue. Don't fix what isn't broken.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by OFQ » #539843

AI policy, that unecessary shuttle calls can be considered harmful to humans due to the stress caused by the evacuation (I'm actually rather certain that the current rules allow the AI to argue an unecessary shuttle call as harmful using the reasoning I just provided).
That's kind ... :roll:

I would prefer instead for silicons to be unable to swipe red and allow AI to call the shuttle only during red alerts.

But my biggest problem with AI's calling shuttle is that they become bored and bait for it or call the shuttle when someone stubs a toe. Personally I ahelp and ask for the sweet release but I don't think that this is a popular option. How about giving AI a button "system reboot" that when pressed will prompt ghosts and borgs to enter its body and the original AI player can finely go play some Fortnite?
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by skoglol » #539861

deedubya once again arguing about shit, but not bothering to read or being unable to comprehend what has been said already. Just stop, you are embarassing yourself.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by OFQ » #539866

deedubya wrote:Consider the fact that despite the shuttle being an "easy counter" to some of the gameplay, the crew still winds up on the losing end of said gameplay approximately 50% of the time. Cult in specific even has a counter to their counter.
Like I said. If the crew won't have an easy way out they will fight better and both sides will have more fun. Also antags could be re-balanced around the idea that the crew has to fight them at least to some extent instead of bailing out on gamplay. At the current state of the things antags have to be powerful enough to finish their business under 5-10 minutes. Also adding gates will mean that automatic ERP dispatch can be an option if the threat has been proven.

deedubya wrote: You're also forgetting an important part of the emergency shuttle. The hint is in the name. It's the thing you call for dire emergencies that would necessitate evacuation. I'll give you another hint in the name of one of the game modes you feel is "only" countered by the shuttle: Nuclear emergency. If you can't call the shuttle in an emergency without having to fulfill some bullshit arbitrary prerequisite, why bother having it at all? You're already time gated from calling it too early, so anything beyond that is just an RP/IC issue. Don't fix what isn't broken.
It should be "Evacuation shuttle" not "Hey we have an emergency shuttle" But I agree that nuke ops are a tricky one. It will be hard to grab nuclear operative gear in time, especially since they self destruct. But probably even sending in a photo of an ops agent or a shit like their ship, nucke would do. Even borgs and AI can make them. Or making it so that nuke priming takes time/extend minimal timer and since it started the shuttle can be called (this is kinda meh) But then actually defeating the ops should be an option.


Adding more gameplay that will encourage people to actually experience existing gamplay instead of waiting for a shuttle is win-win to me. Especially since it will allow for antag nerfs since they will have more time to act.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by deedubya » #539872

OFQ wrote:Like I said. If the crew won't have an easy way out they will fight better and both sides will have more fun.
Not everyone on the crew side gets to have fun when things are going to shit. That's part of the nature of the game, but denying them an out is definitely not the solution.
Also antags could be re-balanced around the idea that the crew has to fight them at least to some extent instead of bailing out on gamplay so the antags have to be powerful enough to finish their business under 5-10 minutes.
This is actually a valid point, but I think it argues more in favor of rebalancing(read: nerfing) certain antags so that crew have more of a chance to fight them off. If the crew have an easier time dealing with potential issues or threats, then shuttle calls will become less common on their own, without necessitating any hard gate for it.
But then actually defeating the ops should be an option.
Fighting the ops/wizard is an option, and one that's often chosen. That being said, with ops in specific, I think that the shuttle not being gated in that manner is very much a good thing. It actually applies a bit more tension to the round if the shuttle is called immediately when they're detected, since it gives the operatives a motivation to work harder and faster. Just like time ticks down for the crew if the operatives manage to succeed, time is also ticking down for the operatives to even achieve that success.

skoglol wrote:deedubya once again arguing about shit, but not bothering to read or being unable to comprehend what has been said already. Just stop, you are embarassing yourself.
>he disagreed with me and provided valid counterpoints so I'll resort to ad-hom to score epic gamer points
how are you not on post approval here
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by OFQ » #539879

So basically this is why I propose to perform an experiment on Manuel. When the admeme online the shuttle call button gets disabled and instead all shuttle calls happen via CentCom communication. Then the admeme, as a game master, can either approve it right away, send in an inspector, send ERP instead, demote condom or require some kind of a proof. It will improve RP greatly.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by skoglol » #539911

deedubya wrote:
skoglol wrote:deedubya once again arguing about shit, but not bothering to read or being unable to comprehend what has been said already. Just stop, you are embarassing yourself.
>he disagreed with me and provided valid counterpoints so I'll resort to ad-hom to score epic gamer points
how are you not on post approval here
Do you expect me to take you seriously when you clearly dont care enough to catch up on the fairly short conversation?
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by PKPenguin321 » #539914

skoglol wrote:
deedubya wrote:
skoglol wrote:deedubya once again arguing about shit, but not bothering to read or being unable to comprehend what has been said already. Just stop, you are embarassing yourself.
>he disagreed with me and provided valid counterpoints so I'll resort to ad-hom to score epic gamer points
how are you not on post approval here
Do you expect me to take you seriously when you clearly dont care enough to catch up on the fairly short conversation?
I read both your posts and you both make valid arguments, cease this 1v1 faggotry. If you don't want to reply to him then just don't reply instead of shitflinging things like "oh yeah well your username is X."

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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by skoglol » #539915

Stillplant wrote:
skoglol wrote:Stillplant is wrong.
https://sb.atlantaned.space/rounds

If we count rounds that end with "Proper Completion", that last less than 50 minutes, at time of writing, we have 129709, and 129689, from 64 rounds on the first page. This is 3 percent of the rounds.
Allright, that is looking a lot better than I expected it to. This is certainly a problem that has existed though, and we still see a lot of early shuttle calls that are being recalled which are disrupting to the round. If the shuttle is called at 30 minutes, do you keep working on your project or do you lose motivation/give up and slack off instead? How about the second time, third time?
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Mickyan » #539926

I would love to see the shuttle's timer being objective based instead of being shortened by red alert, you'd have to manually complete tasks such as refueling, calibrating engines, setting the route etc. to shorten the timer from the 20 minute standard (base number could be increased even).

If enough people want to leave urgently they will contribute and the shuttle would be departing fairly quickly, otherwise if it's just one dude with an AA id trying to call the shuttle it leaves plenty of time for others to recall
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by skoglol » #539935

I dont think the "shuttle will arrive in x minutes" is a good thing, as I mentioned earlier it makes the shuttle not very reactive. It forces people to call the shuttle in case they cant handle the threat instead of calling it when its clear they cant handle the threat.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Sheodir » #539945

I approve of this "shuttle needs evidence idea" because I approve of anything that makes the shuttle less of the I DON'T WANNA PLAY THE GAME button

I would also add a straight up RP policy addendum that Nanotrasen expects the shuttle to be called when the station cannot be expected to function properly within the bounds of reality rather than a "things are unwell" button since Nanotrasen is a faceless cold corporate entity and likely doesn't care if the station has to sacrifice a few dozen lives for the sake of continuing to function
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by OFQ » #539973

Gonna save some shuttle calls from Manuel for the reference:

People just got bored:
The emergency shuttle has been called. It will arrive in 10 minutes.
Nature of emergency:

4 to 1 vote. This station is a fucking vile mess of bile and bodily fluids that makes me sick to my stomach, this place is a fucking nightmare unfit for anybody to step into, jesus fucking christ people
If they had to finish station goals to call the shuttle I think it would be better than "4 to 1 vote" with 47 people in the game. Besides, if they had something to work toward just to get home the crew wouldn't get bored in the first place. The game really needs a wining condition.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by PKPenguin321 » #540067

What on earth would a winning condition look like? Ascending into beings of pure energy?

If you just dislike the emergency shuttle because the flavor is wrong, add a "Call Return Shuttle" button that sends a shuttle that just shuttles employees back home at the end of their shift.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by OFQ » #540077

PKPenguin321 wrote:What on earth would a winning condition look like? Ascending into beings of pure energy?

If you just dislike the emergency shuttle because the flavor is wrong, add a "Call Return Shuttle" button that sends a shuttle that just shuttles employees back home at the end of their shift.
Something like https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24052 when you did all/enough of them you can call for "crew rotation shuttle"
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by cacogen » #540176

need not overly destructive antags to keep people entertained while i grind xenobio for 90 minutes for the 50th time
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by SkeletalElite » #540358

Some Shuttle changes I thought of to help with 1) me bored 2) antag shidded and farded call shuttle. and 3) antag constantly recalling shuttle

Alert Level cannot be changed while the shuttle is called
Shuttle takes 10 minutes on all alerts
Cult Cursed Orb delays shuttle 1 minute instead of 3.


Code Blue and Green
Swipe required for call and recall

Code Red:
Communications console for call, Swipe required for recall

Not a perfect solution but it will help. In order to me bored out of there you got to get at least two people doing it since you need a swipe at some point and people usually only swipe for actualy emergencies. The longer timer helps against calling the shuttle because x antag did y thing. Harder recall on red means antags need help to recall spam.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by deedubya » #540406

SkeletalElite wrote:Code Blue and Green
Swipe required for call and recall

Code Red:
Communications console for call, Swipe required for recall
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Anyone that has shuttle call privileges can swipe their ID to confirm a call. Unless you mean double swiping(like for red alert). In which case, that's not a very good idea. There's already shortages of heads as-is, locking evacuation behind the need to either have multiple heads or tiding the spare and handing out AA is not a good idea.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by SkeletalElite » #540703

deedubya wrote:
Anyone that has shuttle call privileges can swipe their ID to confirm a call. Unless you mean double swiping(like for red alert). In which case, that's not a very good idea. There's already shortages of heads as-is, locking evacuation behind the need to either have multiple heads or tiding the spare and handing out AA is not a good idea.
Double swipe is what I meant yeah. That would be a problem. I suppose you could make it to where if there is two or less shift start heads then swiping isn't required.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by MisterPerson » #540900

If people are calling the shuttle because they're bored, why would you force them to stick around and keep playing? They're bored! Give them something to do.

Shuttle call restrictions are stupid and should never become a thing.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Shadowflame909 » #540916

Agree with above

Just let the damn game end. There's nothing left to do after an hour and 30 minutes.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by OFQ » #540918

MisterPerson wrote:Shuttle call restrictions are stupid and should never become a thing.
There are 2 extremes:

On the one hand, with no limits on shuttle call why would you engage with cult, benos, rev, blob or any other antag if you can simply escape via shuttle and win by default?

On the other hand, current implementation of blob and revs. You wouldn't argue that blob shouldn't block shuttle right? The shuttle block exists for a reason but while it's, generally, works for the blob, it pretty much doesn't for the more stealthy antags like revs - non aggrieve rev rounds turn into absolute nightmare.

I propose third option - allow crew to win/escape with a shuttle but at the same time make sure that to do so they have to at least engage the enemy once and have a minor victory (like steal certain cult artifacts or benos queen organs) after this they should be able to escape via shuttle or call in ERT reinforcement for the variety sake. Not only it is more fun and rewarding for the both sides but it also means that antags can be balanced around actually fighting crew rather than being able to steamroll it before the shuttle arrives.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by cacogen » #540939

MisterPerson wrote:If people are calling the shuttle because they're bored, why would you force them to stick around and keep playing? They're bored! Give them something to do.

Shuttle call restrictions are stupid and should never become a thing.
I have recently transitioned from milling about the station aimlessly waiting for something exciting to happen to grinding xenobio obsessively and so shuttle calls over trivial shit have become extremely annoying. It's a longstanding issue with the game of fuck all happening while a minority try to do jobs
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Armhulen » #540981

MisterPerson wrote:If people are calling the shuttle because they're bored, why would you force them to stick around and keep playing? They're bored! Give them something to do.

Shuttle call restrictions are stupid and should never become a thing.
if anything, a civillian shuttle should be config timed to arrive and the station can opt into DELAYING that
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by deedubya » #540989

Armhulen wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:If people are calling the shuttle because they're bored, why would you force them to stick around and keep playing? They're bored! Give them something to do.

Shuttle call restrictions are stupid and should never become a thing.
if anything, a civillian shuttle should be config timed to arrive and the station can opt into DELAYING that
Most MRP/HRP servers operate under this principle. The "crew transfer" shuttle typically happens at around 90-120 minutes in. Some servers can delay it by a half hour with a vote. As far as I know, none of them disable/restrict the emergency shuttle on top of that. The crew transfer shuttle gives a definitive end to the round that makes sense in character(as opposed to calling the shuttle out of boredom), and doesn't require half the station to be destroyed by some calamity to justify.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by zxaber » #541083

Giving cult the ability to block a shuttle (not just delay) would help with that mode specifically. Like a rune that takes four or five members to evoke, but prevents the shuttle for a time. Ops (specifically warops) could possibly get some sort of item that does similar.

By the by, if you remove the AI's ability to call the shuttle, they're just going to do it by sending a borg to dismantle the comms consoles.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by OFQ » #541108

> By the by, if you remove the AI's ability to call the shuttle, they're just going to do it by sending a borg to dismantle the comms consoles.

That's true. But removal off "call shuttle" AI button will clearly communicate the idea that it is not AIs prerogative to call the shuttle. Breaking down comm consoles, locking down bridge, disabling its APC is borderline abuse of the game mechanics so I doubt it will be taken lightly. Same with smashing comm console when a shuttle is blocked by something (it wouldn't probably work but what if) besides this way of a shuttle call can be locked to 25 minutes no meter the alert level - it's basically "communication lost" rather than "SOS" reason. It still should exist for the extreme cases like super low pop with no access to proper IDs or some kind of a mass brainwashing, borging :D
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Jack7D1 » #541116

I agree with skogol
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #541145

>I have recently transitioned from milling about the station aimlessly waiting for something exciting to happen to grinding xenobio obsessively and so shuttle calls over trivial shit have become extremely annoying. It's a longstanding issue with

remove xenobio and other grindy mechanics ,call me if someone gets upset about it (it wont happen)
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by OFQ » #541150

An epic SM setup and chem factory take like 20+ minutes. Something like genetics, virology, xenobio are grindy by design. Everything in SS13 takes time investment to get real big reward, while getting better at it means that you spend less time getting there.
This thread is more about "calling shuttle too early into a situation so the crew can win by skipping gameplay" rather than "calling shuttle too early into the shift"
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by cacogen » #541215

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:remove xenobio and other grindy mechanics ,call me if someone gets upset about it (it wont happen)
all your takes are correct except this one unless you just mean "remove grinding" at which point i'm not sure how many jobs we'd have left

is grinding the correct analogy? yes in runescape you click trees for 6 hours to get x woodcutting, in ss13 you ctrl+click floortiles for 30 minutes to get x slime. they're both repetitive actions the rewards of which are timegated through a combination of random factors (how many cunts you're competing with for a tree, slime mutation chance) and constants (how long a tree takes to reappear, how long a slime takes to mutate)

is this related to the op? no but yes because the longer we're there grinding for cool shit $$$ the more likely the crew can get a valid shuttle call going so they can re-roll whether or not they'll have fun that round. we need to examine why people get bored and when they get bored and give them guns and the objective to kill each other at that point so i can finish my slimes and they can sit in deadchat unable to call it
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Stillplant » #543581

Maybe change the way traitor uplink works from "20TC and that's it" to "10TC and 5TC every 20 minutes". Would give traitors an incentive to wait longer before acting.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Flatulent » #543586

i think the choice between xenobiology autists and everyone else is an obvious one - throw the call gates down the drain
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by cacogen » #543601

Flatulent wrote:i think the choice between xenobiology autists and everyone else is an obvious one - throw the call gates down the drain
how many jobs don't have a minimum time to unlocking all their potential though? and how many rounds are you going to be content going for 20 minutes anyway?
the pleasure of Manuel is the round lengths compared to the other servers (or at least what it was back before this place died) means everyone actually gets a very good chance to progress their jobs to the point they get what they want out of them
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Flatulent » #543782

now consider that geneticists have nothing to do after 30 minutes.

well of course not nothing, they can always redistribute hulks

Virology is literally make 1 virus - jack off in a corner for the rest of the round
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by cacogen » #543791

ok well back to my original suggestion give them guns and let them kill each other
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by MisterPerson » #543902

Stillplant wrote:Maybe change the way traitor uplink works from "20TC and that's it" to "10TC and 5TC every 20 minutes". Would give traitors an incentive to wait longer before acting.
Why would we want to encourage people to sit around waiting? Waiting is boring!
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #543921

Stillplant wrote:Maybe change the way traitor uplink works from "20TC and that's it" to "10TC and 5TC every 20 minutes". Would give traitors an incentive to wait longer before acting.
TC items are sorta balanced around 20TC. I dont really want half of the rounds to end with romerol because some guy just HAS to do his zombie outbreak.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by PKPenguin321 » #543923

MisterPerson wrote:
Stillplant wrote:Maybe change the way traitor uplink works from "20TC and that's it" to "10TC and 5TC every 20 minutes". Would give traitors an incentive to wait longer before acting.
Why would we want to encourage people to sit around waiting? Waiting is boring!
Agreed. If you want longer rounds, your goal needs to be to provide enough content to satiate players for longer, not to just arbitrarily make the round timer larger with a hard cap.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by CDranzer » #545306

Everybody's dancing around the bigger issue: What, exactly, should a round of SS13 look like? What's the progression? How should it start and end? What does "the shuttle being called too early" even mean? Too early for what? Is a panicked escape a bad thing? Is a reset button a bad thing? When should the round end? Why should the round end? Until these questions can be answered with certainty, talking about the minutia of shuttle call mechanics is a waste of time.
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Re: Shuttle call gates

Post by Stillplant » #548532

Another idea that could help with making rounds last longer: Allow the AI to recall the shuttle. That way, if the AI is law 2ed into calling the shuttle, another Assistant can law 2 the AI into recalling it again, while recalling the shuttle when it is actually necesarry would be a violation of law 1.
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