Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

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Interest in this idea

Yes
64
54%
No
44
37%
orange man bad I am redditor.
10
8%
 
Total votes: 118

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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by ATHATH » #555667

Bottom post of the previous page:

Gogodapogostick wrote:I say again, this is a pretty major change for it to not be on the big poll
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by saprasam » #564170

ok guess i'll just learn how to make one tank bombs and kill the entire station that way instead
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Irad » #565882

saprasam wrote:ok guess i'll just learn how to make one tank bombs and kill the entire station that way instead
this, very much. expect more bombs and plasma fires, arguably less fun ways to die from.


or meme chemical combinations that make you unfixable
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Istoprocent1 » #571282

I posted it in the Minor Suggestions, but it could be done in a simple fashion.

1) Traitors start with a contractor tablet and a contractor baton and either 0TC (lowpop) or 10TC (X+ people).
2) Traitors can do contracts to earn more TC and thus get access to more powerful stuff such as Syndicate Bombs, Syndicate Revolvers and so on.
3) ??????
4) Profit!!!

Maybe lock additional agent behind at least 2-3 successful contracts, rather than 1.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Naloac » #571285

I like the idea but, In all honesty the objectives right now fucking suck. They are almost always extremely easy to do and not fun. Contractor got this idea right. Its normally a fun hard objective that ends with both people being alive and well, while also providing the contractor with a challenge. You would most likely need alot of different objectives to not have the same problem our current objectives have. With all of them having to provide fun ways to create conflict. Collecting x is almost always piss easy and extremely boring. Kill X is also a terrible objective since its not hard to kill one person. Im not very fond of the *force traitors into stealth antags* mindset since stealth antags normally dont effect the round much.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by obi wan kaczynski » #579226

A traitor who has a larger sec/crew force to go up against is at a disadvantage, so having a conservation of TCs makes no sense. This seems to be a solution in search of a problem.

I strongly support getting bonus TCs for completing objectives, though. That would make rounds much more interesting.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by oranges » #579627

just like your shuttle change is a solution in search of a problem
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by obi wan kaczynski » #579711

no, exciting rounds of ss13 ending because something went wrong is a problem outside of tastes and opinions
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by cacogen » #579712

what server do you play on with exciting rounds
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by chocolate_bickie » #585186

Slight tangent but if you do add this could you add something similar to heretic sacrifice targets? Getting your choice of first sac targets when you have 1 maybe 2 influences be between security officers and Shaft Miners is not fun. It could benefit from a similar system where the general danger level of a target is chosen based on your current strength.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by SardarKreuz » #595480

oranges wrote:Floating an idea that I think could have merit here around changes to uplinks for traitors, want to see what people think....
(...)
...Difficult Main objective
Simple sub objectives that you have to complete to build up a gear set for your main one.
There are many merits on this.
Some alternative ideas?

>What if the traitors, in certain rounds, only get a green text if target are dead but most of the crew is alive?

>And what if in other rounds, the traitors do have only "steal stuff" objectives? (Where some of this stuff is mundane and actually a product of regular gameplay, like "the skin of a certain lavaland mob" or "a pill bottle filled with pills containing 50u of a hard to make chem", etc... Would make them less disruptive for a while. (Like spies to that point.)

>Or a mix of those, proper warnings in gameplay that "there are other agents", a 100% cryptographed messenger (that do block their names even if they do write it) for them to arrange a meeting and then a certain need for them to figure out who are the other agents and to talk between themselves before acting? (What if the agents need to obtain one object that is easier for other agent to have, because they are in different roles? Imagine one planet in chem, other in mining and they needing to swap bounties of those places?)

Now on a traitor with escalating objectives, that even could be a totally different antag...

> What some of those objectives do involve "taking photographies" of something? A person here, an area there. Would take time, be a discreet thing,...

> And incriminating photographies? As in containind stuff like "fake rune next to captain's pet, gun next to cargo's console, etc...."?

>Or even having them to plant dangerous stuff like "carps in maint", "slime in engineering", "killer robot of some sort in kitchen", etc... (again they would need a photo too, of the sabotage).

Or even in a totally different tone.

>What if some objectives are to be thematic sabotages related to their roles?
Stuff like to have "3 people to eat food with a specific virus in it", "to deconstruct 5 different APCs as engineer (don't make a difference if those are repaired later, let's say the intent is the rumour of a blackout), "to overdose 4 patients as a medic", "to send two innocent civillians to gulag as a guard", "to kill 8 differently coloured sllimes as a xenobiologist", "to teleport two people to bad places (AI chamber, planetary mining bay,...) with telescience", "to change some people into monkeys as a geneticist, etc....

In short, stuff that would look like an accident, but is an intentional act of sabotage against NT reputation, as a possible first tier objective.

Anyway, it's just some ideas.

Some are easy to implement, as in some objects can get teleported back to Syndicate and checked. While some sabotages may need to be comitted with specific tools (and those do check up the completion of objective), etc...

No clues is photography handling is easy.

Good luck.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Farquaar » #595488

Naloac wrote:I like the idea but, In all honesty the objectives right now fucking suck. They are almost always extremely easy to do and not fun.
If that's the case, then how come it seems like most traitors redtext, even on Manuel where you're supposed to attempt your objective?
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by enginseer-42 » #596911

So perhaps a dumb idea. But why not make Syndicate HQ an ordinary job? Then it's their responsibility to lob antags into the station. They have a starting budget that depends on roundpop. They increase their budget by their agents completing objectives kind of like cargo bounties. Instead of a traitor just plucking gear off the uplink and spending telecrystals, they'd get a syndicate encryption key, and have to ask for gear from their boss.

Maybe have some sort of R&D syphon that allows the Syndicate HQ to unlock new and better stuff, so the antags grow with the crew?

We already have that kind of pointless Syndicate virobase on lavaland.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by sinfulbliss » #598443

This reminds me a lot of this "mercenary" role I got as a traitor. An admin basically created new objectives for me as I completed them, and each was rewarded with TC.

It was fun as a one-off thing, but the problem I could see with it is that most of the "easy" objectives are pretty boring and don't make for exciting gameplay for either traitors or the people fighting the traitors. Roundstart murderboning with desword followed by a massive ghost circle around the murderboner, every ghost waiting for the person who will stop them, is pretty exciting and I don't think there's an inherent problem with it.

It's a cool mode otherwise, I just think it should perhaps be optional like "contractor," maybe it could be a kit you buy in the uplink called "mercenary" or something.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Noodlecat » #610720

My only problem is, is that this really penalize traitor gimmicks and traitor trying to be interesting, while there are interesting ways to greentext, for example releasing a death virus only to cure it and make a romerol tainted vaccine, this still relies on old traitor items being available, part of the fun of traitor is your lack of limitations.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Pandarsenic » #610742

oranges wrote:Some subnotes:
This moves the antag into a more progression based system, something which changeling, our other solo antag, has.

There is possibility we take murderbone focused stuff and move that to yet *ANOTHER* store, where you can only get access to it if you press a button/request help.
This grants you full access to murderbone shop inc, *BUT* NT gets notified of who you are and announces to the crew.

NB: this alert/request help would only become available after either a time bound pneriod, or some level of objective completion, this is to prevent round start traitor murderbone giving away gamemode for more passive traitors.
I'm just going to say:

1) this idea in general sounds way better than, at the VERY least, the current-stage Contractor Kit, which people may know better as the "Friendly antag TC sharing co-op kit"

2) WAR TRAITOR sounds pretty hype and should totally happen.

3) A way more code-heavy addition, that I think would be very cool, but feel free to tell me I'm a dumbass: give WAR TRAITOR an option to invite all other Syndicate traitors to join you; those who accept the prompt are also named with you and you all get a team HUD like flukies/revs/etc. have; those who reject your LOUD TIME team offer have a small warning period to hide/get out of dodge/position themselves for their own objectives. Even if they don't accept your offer, they know now might be a good time to codeword and hope for the best, grab a syndicate radio implant or key, etc.

I kind of like the idea of traitors meaning that things might pop off at only a few minutes' notice.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by EuSouAFazenda » #610750

I really like these ideas, but I feel like they cut off something really important: A good gateway for new players.

New players have to have a role that is easy and quick to understand and get into. "You're an enemy spy - use your uplink to summon spy gear and complete your objectives" is a fantastic starting point for first-time antagonists. There's no progression system to worry about, there is no magic spells, there is no changeling powers - there is just you, your uplink and your objective. A simple shop interface, a simple one-sentence objective and that's it.

If we lose Traitor as an obvious first antag for beginners, then what antag would it be? Changeling? Heretic? Rev? All of them have problems that make them not have the simple magic of Traitor - Changelings have the whole absorption and power system, Heretics have the sacrifice and paths systems and Revs are both a team antag, a time-based antag (until Cargo mass-orders mindshields) and doesn't give any tools to help you, except for the flash, if you're a headrev. A new player playing one of those roles would either have to pull the wiki (Traitor/Changeling) or be utterly confused as to what's happening (Rev).


I'd be much more in favor of instead doing these changes to Contractor. That way, players that want to spice up their Traitor round can while not sacrificing the amazing entry point to antag that is Traitor. SS13 already has problems with getting new players; choking one of the very few things that can be enjoyed as a new player would be a pretty unwise move imo.

Another thing - Traitor can also be used as a do antag gimmick round in a way that other traitors like Heretics or Changelings can't. Unlike these 2, it's a sandbox; you have access to all your tools roundstart and can do your gimmick. Losing this experience by locking tools by progression would be a shame.

Basically:
  • Traitor isn't just the standard antagonist, it's also very likely to be the first Antag experience for new players
  • By complicating the role, Traitor would no longer be easy and simple for new players, causing a worse player retention rate.
  • Furthermore, traitor is the easiest antag role to do a gimmick on. Player-made, one-round gimmicks are a big part of why so many of SS13's rounds are immensely memorable and unique. Losing this freedom as traitor means this cornerstone of SS13 is lost in translation.

I'd love to see these changes rolled into Contractor, but changing base traitor to be more complex is a really bad idea when seen on a macro scale. Yes, it will make the Traitor experience more rewarding and interesting for experient players, but SS13 is already filled with stuff that only expert-level players can meaningfully access. We should be designing more entry-level stuff rather than for the top of the skill curve.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Flatulent » #610752

Locking away traitor gimmicks behind objectives such as kill John RP who leaves station roundstart never to be seen again is an extremely stupid idea. I understand your reasoning behind making traitor progression-based, but we still need a basic bitch solo antagonist with a wide variety of tools at his disposal.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Armhulen » #610754

Flatulent wrote:a basic bitch solo antagonist with a wide variety of tools at his disposal.
If we were trying to preserve the generic low level solo antagonist with open ended goals, how would you fix:

1. Traitors sabotaging the station beyond belief, before station progresses and without counterplay (see problem 2). A traitor can, within 30 seconds of the round starting, purchase a revolver and dump it into the SM, triggering an instant delamination. They can also purchase a syndiebomb + c4 kit and instantly turn medbay into a huge hole.
problems this makes:
* more important round antagonists do not have time to progress, their rounds are essentially hijacked by a low level antag role (i'll talk a bit more about "low level antagonist") later
* security had no power to stop this, only damage control
* crew doesn't get to progress to counter antagonists, as the round won't go on that long
* creates a "tainted" round where people will stop trying to do anything interesting and instead rushing to call the shuttle. people want a round with a medbay/engine and do not consider having to put in the time to fix those areas worth it vs a restart
2. Traitors not having a paper trail behind their antagonism. Since they can purchase anywhere, anything, and at any time, traitors are free to use the syndiebomb + c4 trick after 50 minutes of doing nothing to turn the shuttle into a hole
problems this makes:
* the amount of work security gets at stopping antagonists is directly dependent on how much they decide to actually antagonize, if they decide to do nothing but evaporate the shuttle then there was no possibility of being able to "catch" the traitor setting up for this (think someone that makes bombs in toxins leaves the paper trail of them working in toxins, but one who buys from the kit doesn't have that.)
* another case of a low level antagonist very possibly hijacking the roundend for more important ones. i'm not saying in the end that a traitor shouldn't be able to become the big focus of a round but rather that a traitor doing that to majorly switch how the round ends is entirely unearned.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Fishimun » #610767

Armhulen wrote:
Flatulent wrote:a basic bitch solo antagonist with a wide variety of tools at his disposal.
If we were trying to preserve the generic low level solo antagonist with open ended goals, how would you fix:

1. Traitors sabotaging the station beyond belief, before station progresses and without counterplay (see problem 2). A traitor can, within 30 seconds of the round starting, purchase a revolver and dump it into the SM, triggering an instant delamination. They can also purchase a syndiebomb + c4 kit and instantly turn medbay into a huge hole.
problems this makes:
* more important round antagonists do not have time to progress, their rounds are essentially hijacked by a low level antag role (i'll talk a bit more about "low level antagonist") later
* security had no power to stop this, only damage control
* crew doesn't get to progress to counter antagonists, as the round won't go on that long
* creates a "tainted" round where people will stop trying to do anything interesting and instead rushing to call the shuttle. people want a round with a medbay/engine and do not consider having to put in the time to fix those areas worth it vs a restart
2. Traitors not having a paper trail behind their antagonism. Since they can purchase anywhere, anything, and at any time, traitors are free to use the syndiebomb + c4 trick after 50 minutes of doing nothing to turn the shuttle into a hole
problems this makes:
* the amount of work security gets at stopping antagonists is directly dependent on how much they decide to actually antagonize, if they decide to do nothing but evaporate the shuttle then there was no possibility of being able to "catch" the traitor setting up for this (think someone that makes bombs in toxins leaves the paper trail of them working in toxins, but one who buys from the kit doesn't have that.)
* another case of a low level antagonist very possibly hijacking the roundend for more important ones. i'm not saying in the end that a traitor shouldn't be able to become the big focus of a round but rather that a traitor doing that to majorly switch how the round ends is entirely unearned.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Flatulent » #610775

Armhulen wrote:
Flatulent wrote:a basic bitch solo antagonist with a wide variety of tools at his disposal.
If we were trying to preserve the generic low level solo antagonist with open ended goals, how would you fix:

1. Traitors sabotaging the station beyond belief, before station progresses and without counterplay (see problem 2). A traitor can, within 30 seconds of the round starting, purchase a revolver and dump it into the SM, triggering an instant delamination. They can also purchase a syndiebomb + c4 kit and instantly turn medbay into a huge hole.
problems this makes:
* more important round antagonists do not have time to progress, their rounds are essentially hijacked by a low level antag role (i'll talk a bit more about "low level antagonist") later
* security had no power to stop this, only damage control
* crew doesn't get to progress to counter antagonists, as the round won't go on that long
* creates a "tainted" round where people will stop trying to do anything interesting and instead rushing to call the shuttle. people want a round with a medbay/engine and do not consider having to put in the time to fix those areas worth it vs a restart
2. Traitors not having a paper trail behind their antagonism. Since they can purchase anywhere, anything, and at any time, traitors are free to use the syndiebomb + c4 trick after 50 minutes of doing nothing to turn the shuttle into a hole
problems this makes:
* the amount of work security gets at stopping antagonists is directly dependent on how much they decide to actually antagonize, if they decide to do nothing but evaporate the shuttle then there was no possibility of being able to "catch" the traitor setting up for this (think someone that makes bombs in toxins leaves the paper trail of them working in toxins, but one who buys from the kit doesn't have that.)
* another case of a low level antagonist very possibly hijacking the roundend for more important ones. i'm not saying in the end that a traitor shouldn't be able to become the big focus of a round but rather that a traitor doing that to majorly switch how the round ends is entirely unearned.
You can nerf traitor without removing him all-together. We already have contraband uplink that lets you buy dumb crap with money and its transported to a random location on the station, you could have traitors use this mechanic to acquire the most overpowered gear they have. Obviously it won’t tell the crew where the (immovable) box with shit will land, but traitors will have to do some legwork to recover their property. Boning traitors could definetly use a speed bump, but nuking all traitors over this seems too harsh. Bullet SM can be nerfed, so can syndie payload become untriggereable without the syndie bomb on a 90 second timer. How many times have you seen someone delam SM in this way anyway? Medbay blowing up is extremely annoying, I agree, but SM being delammed in this way is a non-issue as it happens pretty rarely IMO.

As for traitors not having any paper trail, if a person bombs the shuttle at minute 50, who cares? Unless it’s revolution or blob, the round has already ended anyway. It’s their round and if they want to waste their antag on bombing the shuttle and just bar rp for fifty minutes, let them do that. We already have sec call shuttle when they eliminate every antagonist, making antags weaker would lead to shorter rounds.
Not to mention that we also have LATEJOIN traitors. Would you have them do objectives when most are already grabbed? How will they have time to do much anyway?
In 50 minutes of gameplay, you could make multiple maxcaps to blow the fucking shuttle up. You don’t even need to know how to do that initially with this amount of time. You can just repeat a guide and end up with multiple bombs. A blood brother could do this. A cultist could do this. Any concievable antagonist is capable of collecting massive amounts of “gamer gear” by minute 50, be the source xenobiology, toxins, mining or a full crate of cargo autorifles.
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Armhulen » #610788

Thanks for the answer, I liked hearing your take on the design issues
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Pandarsenic » #610855

Flatulent wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
Flatulent wrote:a basic bitch solo antagonist with a wide variety of tools at his disposal.
concerns
You can nerf traitor without removing him all-together. We already have contraband uplink that lets you buy dumb crap with money and its transported to a random location on the station, you could have traitors use this mechanic to acquire the most overpowered gear they have. Obviously it won’t tell the crew where the (immovable) box with shit will land, but traitors will have to do some legwork to recover their property. Boning traitors could definetly use a speed bump, but nuking all traitors over this seems too harsh. Bullet SM can be nerfed, so can syndie payload become untriggereable without the syndie bomb on a 90 second timer. How many times have you seen someone delam SM in this way anyway? Medbay blowing up is extremely annoying, I agree, but SM being delammed in this way is a non-issue as it happens pretty rarely IMO.

As for traitors not having any paper trail, if a person bombs the shuttle at minute 50, who cares? Unless it’s revolution or blob, the round has already ended anyway. It’s their round and if they want to waste their antag on bombing the shuttle and just bar rp for fifty minutes, let them do that. We already have sec call shuttle when they eliminate every antagonist, making antags weaker would lead to shorter rounds.
Not to mention that we also have LATEJOIN traitors. Would you have them do objectives when most are already grabbed? How will they have time to do much anyway?
In 50 minutes of gameplay, you could make multiple maxcaps to blow the fucking shuttle up. You don’t even need to know how to do that initially with this amount of time. You can just repeat a guide and end up with multiple bombs. A blood brother could do this. A cultist could do this. Any concievable antagonist is capable of collecting massive amounts of “gamer gear” by minute 50, be the source xenobiology, toxins, mining or a full crate of cargo autorifles.
I'm inclined to agree with some, but not all, of this, I think.

Instant supermatter delam:

I almost never see this happen for one obvious reason - you can't really do that without immediately outing yourself and spending most of your TCs on the bullets you just fired into the SM. Furthermore, because of the airlock setup, you either need an Airlock Card or you need to stand right alongside the SM you're about to delaminate. Furthermore, you generally get a pretty shit explosion out of doing that. While engineering won't get rebuilt, because the station never gets rebuilt, an instant delam is usually pretty easy to solve with solars (if anyone cares to).

Syndie Payload with C4 costs 11 TC for the bomb, 1 more TC for the C-4, and requires tools, which is most of your Gamer Points (plus a couple signalers to fire it off safely) for a total cost of 12 TC plus somewhere between zero and a few hundred credits for tools and signalers (or you can just break into somewhere with an autolathe or its circuit board). Or, if you're brave, you can +1 TC syndicate toolbox it and time the C-4 VERY carefully.

I'm torn on it. I think 1 extra TC to cheese the timer of the syndicate bomb into irrelevance is a bit cheap of an ask? But if you don't, the syndicate bomb is just a very unreliable 50/50 whether it goes off at all when you try it anywhere that people have tools. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I think if that gets removed, the syndicate bomb needs other reliability buffs, I guess.

Paper trail: Totally agreed. I would be more concerned if Security didn't declare "We've won, good job everyone, call the shuttle" so often.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Flatulent
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Flatulent » #610902

You don’t actually need TC to buy bullets for the revolver. 357 can be printed.
As for the syndie bomb, it could definetly use a buff by itself.
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Pandarsenic
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Re: Possible change to uplinks (for traitors)

Post by Pandarsenic » #611088

If you take the time to hack the autolathe, you aren't doing the instant-delam mentioned

And if you want TC efficiency, you should use the 9mm, not the .357
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
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