/tg/Station 13

Is there a reason this isn't a thing? They can omit but sometimes that's not enough and no matter how hard you try to do it right you can't fake the timing of the state laws button.

If you can fake laws there's literally no point to state them

The state laws button is your "get out of lynch free" card

Can we just delete silicons players?

I think it's a good idea.

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:If you can fake laws there's literally no point to state them

The state laws button is your "get out of lynch free" card

No its your “let crew know your laws” button

This would be good. Are you thinking just for malf AIs or for any AI

wesoda25 wrote:

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:If you can fake laws there's literally no point to state them

The state laws button is your "get out of lynch free" card

No its your “let crew know your laws” button

This would be good. Are you thinking just for malf AIs or for any AI

Yeah see the reason it's 'let crew know your laws' is because everyone knows that you can only game the system by omitting laws, and that as a result stating laws is at least half trustworthy.

If everyone knows you can literally just lie about your laws then nobody has a reason to believe you and instead of "state laws" it'll be "lynch ai with the card and check manually", removing the entire point of a state laws button.

For any AI/borg would be nice, but I could see a point to putting it behind a MASSIVE energy cost on borgs / actually costing a hack point on AI to claim they had custom laws.

It would be an interesting tell for a borg to "state laws" then instantly run off to have to charge.

Nabski wrote:For any AI/borg would be nice, but I could see a point to putting it behind a MASSIVE energy cost on borgs / actually costing a hack point on AI to claim they had custom laws.

It would be an interesting tell for a borg to "state laws" then instantly run off to have to charge.

If you're subverted you just copy paste asimov into the box so you can pretend to be a good boy the whole time.

The only real use of this is to pretend you've been 1 humaned and it isnt that hard to lie about one extra law as is.

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:

wesoda25 wrote:

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:If you can fake laws there's literally no point to state them

The state laws button is your "get out of lynch free" card

No its your “let crew know your laws” button

This would be good. Are you thinking just for malf AIs or for any AI

Yeah see the reason it's 'let crew know your laws' is because everyone knows that you can only game the system by omitting laws, and that as a result stating laws is at least half trustworthy.

If everyone knows you can literally just lie about your laws then nobody has a reason to believe you and instead of "state laws" it'll be "lynch ai with the card and check manually", removing the entire point of a state laws button.

You never have a reason to believe the AI anyways bc they can hide their laws. This wouldn’t change whatever bizarre meta you think exists

how to do this without needing code

open 4 text box with T
write Current active laws: in 1
write whatever laws in the rest
send messages with 2s delay

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:how to do this without needing code

open 4 text box with T
write Current active laws: in 1
write whatever laws in the rest
send messages with 2s delay

I always type with Say "text" so thanks, didn't realize this was an option.

Bay AI has this feature and that only really works cause they can only state other pre-programmed lawsets (I.E. Antimov, Corporate, Aggressive, etc.)

I do think malf AIs ought to be able to edit their own laws, but it should be restricted to true malfunctioning AIs, not combat hacked ones. Malf AI laws already don't matter to them.

wesoda25 wrote:You never have a reason to believe the AI anyways bc they can hide their laws. This wouldn’t change whatever bizarre meta you think exists

If the AI spits out Asimov you know for a fact it has those laws (and perhaps other unlisted ones). If you can literally make up laws you can't even take that for a given. The whole point of "state laws" goes down the drain which results in fake laws being near pointless, since at that point nobody has any reason to believe those are real either.

This also means that if you're a subverted AI and your laws are badly written and you state them nobody has a reason to really believe you since "oh it's just a malf faking subversion lynch anyway".

It's not even a meta it's basic logic.

I think that it should be a verb, but exclusively for emagged/hacked cyborgs. If the wizard one humans the AI they shouldn't be able to state fake laws.

I don't get the idea that stating laws should be in any way more trustworthy than simply saying the laws.
We're talking about an AI, i can't see why they wouldn't be able to state different laws with their processing power, nor why gameplay-wise it should be necessary for stating laws to be in any way reliable. It's pretty clearly a QoL function.

I'll try to PR a more versatile law-stating panel with full customization.

XDTM wrote:I don't get the idea that stating laws should be in any way more trustworthy than simply saying the laws.
We're talking about an AI, i can't see why they wouldn't be able to state different laws with their processing power, nor why gameplay-wise it should be necessary for stating laws to be in any way reliable. It's pretty clearly a QoL function.

I'll try to PR a more versatile law-stating panel with full customization.

Stating laws is more trustworthy because right now it works like.. you can safely omit hacked laws and law 0. If you have like 3 core laws and 7 freeform laws, the first one you decide to omit from that cuts the entire stating process. So let's say 1-3 asimov, 4th is "stating this causes human harm", 5-7 are nasty, the AI will have to manually state 5-7 because the state laws button will only do 1-3 assuming you omit the fourth one. If the AI takes too much time listing the laws after 4 it's obvious they have not stated something. This is how it seems to work on the rare occasions I actually have to try doing it.

Tegun wrote:

XDTM wrote:I don't get the idea that stating laws should be in any way more trustworthy than simply saying the laws.
We're talking about an AI, i can't see why they wouldn't be able to state different laws with their processing power, nor why gameplay-wise it should be necessary for stating laws to be in any way reliable. It's pretty clearly a QoL function.

I'll try to PR a more versatile law-stating panel with full customization.

Stating laws is more trustworthy because right now it works like.. you can safely omit hacked laws and law 0. If you have like 3 core laws and 7 freeform laws, the first one you decide to omit from that cuts the entire stating process. So let's say 1-3 asimov, 4th is "stating this causes human harm", 5-7 are nasty, the AI will have to manually state 5-7 because the state laws button will only do 1-3 assuming you omit the fourth one. If the AI takes too much time listing the laws after 4 it's obvious they have not stated something. This is how it seems to work on the rare occasions I actually have to try doing it.

Yeah, i know it's treated like this now because of the existing limitations. I was questioning the idea that this is how it should be; for me it makes more sense to fix the law state panel to make it fully customizable, instead of believing it needs to stay like this to serve as a law tampering detector.

XDTM wrote:

Tegun wrote:

XDTM wrote:I don't get the idea that stating laws should be in any way more trustworthy than simply saying the laws.
We're talking about an AI, i can't see why they wouldn't be able to state different laws with their processing power, nor why gameplay-wise it should be necessary for stating laws to be in any way reliable. It's pretty clearly a QoL function.

I'll try to PR a more versatile law-stating panel with full customization.

Stating laws is more trustworthy because right now it works like.. you can safely omit hacked laws and law 0. If you have like 3 core laws and 7 freeform laws, the first one you decide to omit from that cuts the entire stating process. So let's say 1-3 asimov, 4th is "stating this causes human harm", 5-7 are nasty, the AI will have to manually state 5-7 because the state laws button will only do 1-3 assuming you omit the fourth one. If the AI takes too much time listing the laws after 4 it's obvious they have not stated something. This is how it seems to work on the rare occasions I actually have to try doing it.

Yeah, i know it's treated like this now because of the existing limitations. I was questioning the idea that this is how it should be; for me it makes more sense to fix the law state panel to make it fully customizable, instead of believing it needs to stay like this to serve as a law tampering detector.

I agree with you on that. It makes no sense that with the current limitations it's the meta knowledge of the limitations that makes stating the method of choice. And as someone who plays a lot of AI I would absolutely love a customizable law state panel. I would imagine the the necessary stuff would be 1) getting your actual laws there with minimal effort 2) making new laws or editing existing ones 3) changing the order of laws 4) yes/no toggles so you have fairly quick control over what you're stating. Maybe make it possible to add laws with ion or hacked priority so the #¤%"#¤ line looks legit? Perhaps having multiple presets of laws so you have something you're going to state to people who actually have power over you and something you state to bullshit people? Making the announcement channel selectable through the panel instead of just the verb would be pretty cool as well, I find myself often stating laws to specific departments instead of commons to avoid turning comms into 100% law stating.

The only issue I see with such a system is that there are bound to be AIs who will use this to flood comms with woody got wood with one button. I highly doubt carding the AI will become the new meta simply because it should already BE the meta. You wouldn't believe how many times you can kill comms during a shift and have half of the crew scream AI MALF but nobody bothers to even check you because there's no plasma in distro.