Significant damage can jolt people out of stam crit

[wesoda25]

Inspired by this quote from SkeletalElite: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -624976915 on the baton PR.

The idea is basically this: what if taking x amount of damage (I tentatively say ~25) can shock you (or has a chance to) out of stam crit? Alternatively, every time you are hurt in stam crit has a chance of jolting you out of it, with the chance scaling upwards according to how severe the injury you received was. Additionally, we could consider some sort of small window of stamina resistance (possibly damage too) after being jolted out of stam crit, or even a slight speed boost.

This would have the effect greatly weakening murderboners who use stun (stamina) weapons to immobilize someone before beating them with an object of their choice. Not just for murderboners, it would greatly shift our combat meta away from stun and kill.

Of course this would have massive effects on the game, so I wanted to make a thread and see if people had suggestions to improve the idea, or any reason why it shouldn’t be tried.

[Helios]

I would say yes, depending on the source of damage.
If it's toxin or suffocation no.
Fire or blunt, yes.

[NecromancerAnne]

Careful with limiting it from suffocation. Krav Maga kills you via lung punch usually. And suffocation is already worth double it's own value in damage due to knocking you out if you're suffocating at 50 oxyloss.

Also I like this idea a lot though mentioned in the same thread, and it is worth mentioning here too, that you might see people cuff for singular murder. Not too big a deal, since cuffing everyone in a brawl is basically impossible with stamina damage alone or without help.

It might be a good idea to have a hardcap on how much stamina damage you can continue to do to someone to a person who is already in stamina crit. This can stop infinite stamcrit loops like we kinda have with the new stingbangs as well as tabling.

Do note, due to how stamcrit is coded, it overshoots you with stamina damage to prevent immediate regen out of stamina crit if you have passive stamina crit, so that will be need to be accounted for as well.

[wesoda25]

Yeah I figure if they take the time to cuff you, it’ll just get annoying if they’re trying to kill a lot of people.

Limiting to brute and burn is ideal I think, we shouldn’t balance around niche items like krav maga gloves.

[NecromancerAnne]

If it proves to be a problem, I suppose that can be resolved down the line if a change like this happened, though maybe this will be the return of combat chokes. I'm already picturing someone strangling someone in a stamina crit juggle while fighting off other opponents.

(That said choking is obscenely slow so it should not be much of an issue without addition help, like lung punch)

[SkeletalElite]

I think it' obvious to say I like the idea given I'm the one that came up with it but I also had the idea it could be potentially tied to seconds winds from the wounds PR.

Addmittedly I don't have much experience with the wounds PR so I don't know how common they are, however if common enough, that could be a good way to tie the system in.

[NecromancerAnne]

Given what I've seen so far, fairly common if you are getting beaten to a pulp.

[wesoda25]

oh I didn’t even know that PR had something like that, shaps update pr body!

[PKPenguin321]

back when stamina damage stacked with normal damage i suggested this but i don't think it's needed any longer, makes stam crit lean too far towards useless

[Flatulent]

what if I just use lethals instead

[NecromancerAnne]

Oh now that I think about it I think I know of another source of oxyloss. Neckslice. Still not very fast but stacks with choking.

[Armhulen]

what if I just use lethals instead

antags already do, security have the expectation not to.

that being said the more i think about full lethals security the more i like it. Don't run, they'll shoot you and your 5 minute sentence just became 10 minutes and a patchup

[Super Aggro Crag]

run and you will only die tired, citizen

[PKPenguin321]

what if I just use lethals instead

antags already do, security have the expectation not to.

that being said the more i think about full lethals security the more i like it. Don't run, they'll shoot you and your 5 minute sentence just became 10 minutes and a patchup

I would like it if they had the slightest obligation to pass you to medbay and give you a window to escape during treatment but as it is sec can just shoot you, drag you to their pathetic excuse for a medical room, and watch you bleed out while they search you then go "oh wow he died who could have expected that"

[NecromancerAnne]

That's a policy issue at that point if that's the direction we want to go with security.

[XivilaiAnaxes]

I've always found it weird security is the only department expected to behave better than their real life counterparts.

Stun batons should be strictly worse than antag melee weapons (esword comes to mind) because at the moment they basically (still) define melee combat despite being an item given out like cookies roundstart. Whereas most antag weapons are more or less just memes for some flavour.

[NecromancerAnne]

Iunno, I wouldn't call a power fist a meme.

[Dr_bee]

I never really understood why stamina damage was separated from normal damage. It makes no sense for a person with a sucking chest wound to take just as much stamina damage to take down as a healthy person.

Why should stamina damage be different from normal damage other than it heals by itself and cant kill?

[BeeSting12]

So you're saying a guy with say 50 brute would only need 50 stamina damage to take down?

[PKPenguin321]

I never really understood why stamina damage was separated from normal damage. It makes no sense for a person with a sucking chest wound to take just as much stamina damage to take down as a healthy person.

Why should stamina damage be different from normal damage other than it heals by itself and cant kill?

it used to stack with regular damage but it made it super easy to chainstun people to death with it
1. apply a shitload of stamina damage to knock them down, let's call it a flat 200, usually with a gun
2. apply toolbox for 10 damage per hit
3. their stamina regens bringing their total damage to 190
4. 190 + 10 brute from toolbox = 200 -> they are knocked down again
5. repeat from step 2 until dead
it unironically made stamina stronger than raw stuns

also whenever a "muh balance" retard added a stamina weapon over a stun weapon they would always always always balance it around it being used on a full health individual, so if you went into a fight even minorly wounded you were doubly fucked

[wesoda25]

stamina stacking on normal damage is a terrible idea and has nothing to do with this thread

[NecromancerAnne]

I never really understood why stamina damage was separated from normal damage. It makes no sense for a person with a sucking chest wound to take just as much stamina damage to take down as a healthy person.

Why should stamina damage be different from normal damage other than it heals by itself and cant kill?

it used to stack with regular damage but it made it super easy to chainstun people to death with it
1. apply a shitload of stamina damage to knock them down, let's call it a flat 200, usually with a gun
2. apply toolbox for 10 damage per hit
3. their stamina regens bringing their total damage to 190
4. 190 + 10 brute from toolbox = 200 -> they are knocked down again
5. repeat from step 2 until dead
it unironically made stamina stronger than raw stuns

also whenever a "muh balance" retard added a stamina weapon over a stun weapon they would always always always balance it around it being used on a full health individual, so if you went into a fight even minorly wounded you were doubly fucked

As an example of this, enchanted mosins used to do 80 stamina and 5 brute for an effective 85 damage bullet. This was considered weak for wizards but obviously it is powerful as a stun that can't reasonably kill, unlike the other barrage spell, arcane barrage with 20 brute. But could be combined together with other weapons to be a chainstun.

Now it does 80 stamina and 20 brute.

Wait...

[Tlaltecuhtli]

doesnt bamboo bones have "adrenaline" or something that does this?

having spear in head get you out of stamcrit only means bonnie mc murden is gonnna add a handcuff step in between shoot man with disabler and esword his head off

[SkeletalElite]

doesnt bamboo bones have "adrenaline" or something that does this?

having spear in head get you out of stamcrit only means bonnie mc murden is gonnna add a handcuff step in between shoot man with disabler and esword his head off

That's fine because it adds a 5 second do_after to your kills and an additional do_after if you want the cuffs back. If you don't want the cuffs back you'll need to new ties/cables/cuffs for every kill.

It makes stun and kill less reliable since you have to stun cuff kill, which might just be enough to move the fighting meta away from stun and kill. Stun and kill will still be effective against single targets, but is not very useful against groups.

Also wounds PR has "second winds" but they will not heal your stamina damage, so stun and kill is still equally effective.

[Shaps-cloud]

The second wind also heals .25 brute and burn per wound on the limb it's on, which stacks

[Zybwivcz]

Make the disabler research only/cargo purchase, make a dragnet variant the default SEC starter handgun, make it teleport to some preset beacon in SEC like the processing cell. Emagged ones can teleport randomly or to an enabled teleporter target or whatever.

If you don't want it to be easier to lethal people than to disable them, the only possible way to make that happen is to have disabling weapons that make it more difficult to kill someone after they're down. Making baton->harmbaton into baton->cuff->harmbaton isn't going to do it.