/tg/Station 13

Now that it seems like code is going in a different direction, I want to have a poll on adding Sleepers or Cloners back into the game, as T-3 or T-4 inventions, requiring construction and minerals from mining.

I'd like both sleepers and cloners back now that Oranges isn't head coder.
Why isn't that an option?

Horza wrote:I'd like both sleepers and cloners back now that Oranges isn't head coder.
Why isn't that an option?

You can select more than one thing.

Sleepers still exist however they aren't as good as you remember them to be.

I strongly believe that surgery + stasis would be far greater than the sleeper unless it was some weird scenario where it suddenly became useful.

Ayy Lemoh wrote:they aren't as good as you remember them to be.

I mean it was nice to be revived within a minute or two by an overworked medbay staffer even if they were new and just reading shit off the wiki. Better than being crammed into a cryotube and forgotten about for five minutes, or being experimented upon by some fucking hero surgeon for ten.
Imagine actively wishing for active inter-player interaction with anyone other than deadchat for 10+ minutes just because you got caught up in in a for-no-reason explosion or random magicarp deathbolt shot down a hallway.

Horza wrote:

Ayy Lemoh wrote:they aren't as good as you remember them to be.

I mean it was nice to be revived within a minute or two by an overworked medbay staffer even if they were new and just reading shit off the wiki. Better than being crammed into a cryotube and forgotten about for five minutes, or being experimented upon by some fucking hero surgeon for ten.
Imagine actively wishing for active inter-player interaction with anyone other than deadchat for 10+ minutes just because you got caught up in in a for-no-reason explosion or random magicarp deathbolt shot down a hallway.

No, they literally aren't as good anymore, especially with wounds. This isn't me saying i think sleepers are trash while stasis beds are god.

I don't know the chems that it uses exactly however I believe they're the kind that if you just keep putting in someone then you'll actually end up poisoning them in the end.

You are better off with a surgeon in a stasis bed, cryo tube, or an admin-only sleeper that allows you to inject yourself from in. The normal sleeper is kinda trash now otherwise from what I remember.

Why do you think they should come back, and what do you dislike about our current system?

Forza wrote:I'd like both sleepers and cloners back now that Oranges isn't head coder.

based and redpilled

wesoda25 wrote:Why do you think they should come back, and what do you dislike about our current system?

I think that they should come back because removing them from the game entirely was an act of spite. There is a way to set up cloning, so that it is a convenience if you put in a sufficient amount of work, but difficult enough that it wouldn't be something you regularly see within the first 20 minutes of the round.

Idk what you mean by spite, they were removed on purpose because it’s basically what the medical system had been building towards. Making damage and death meaningful by making healing no longer trivial. Don’t you think the possibility to clone, unlocked 20-30 minutes into a round or not, trivializes our medical system? All that would happen is doctors rushing cloning, and then ignoring all other systems given to them. The same goes for sleepers - click a button and watch them heal!

Of course that’s assuming we re add them without making any changes. A more involved process would be better, I can think of required maintenance, reagents etc to make cloning in depth, but I can’t think of anything for sleepers.

I'm still here

wesoda25 wrote:Idk what you mean by spite, they were removed on purpose because it’s basically what the medical system had been building towards. Making damage and death meaningful by making healing no longer trivial. Don’t you think the possibility to clone, unlocked 20-30 minutes into a round or not, trivializes our medical system? All that would happen is doctors rushing cloning, and then ignoring all other systems given to them. The same goes for sleepers - click a button and watch them heal!

Of course that’s assuming we re add them without making any changes. A more involved process would be better, I can think of required maintenance, reagents etc to make cloning in depth, but I can’t think of anything for sleepers.

The way the code was removed for cloning, was different than the usual process of removing mechanics.

If you mean the complete removal, it was done so that the pile of cloning bugs could be done away with.

wesoda25 wrote:If you mean the complete removal, it was done so that the pile of cloning bugs could be done away with.

There are other sections of the code which have a pile of bugs, and lie dormant, therefore not receiving the same treatment. I see it as spite. Simple as.

cloning was deleted because it was braindead easy to make horizontal spacemen into vertical
then again i enjoy being vertical so im conflicted

i disagree with this. Both the removal of the sleeper and the removal of the cloner have given medbay a lot more life as a job.

That being said, the "broken" cloner that would make copies of you with new ckeys was super neat and I don't think it would be bad as a station goal.

For everyone who wants sleepers back, I want you to try something.

Go into a private test server, give yourself some damage, and use a sleeper to heal yourself.

Sucks, doesn't it? You'd end up reverting all of the previous year's medbay changes to get them back.

no thank you.

I do not want to go back to a medical where doctors exist to open the medical doors.

Don't bring back sleepers, don't bring back cloning, yell at the Botanist if you need a pod.

Also don't allow operating computers to link to stasis beds. It's dumb and makes fun stuff like brainwashing surgery damn hard to do stealthily. Don't like sitting on a bed getting wounds tended? Don't die.

trollbreeder wrote:cloning was deleted because it was braindead easy to make horizontal spacemen into vertical
then again i enjoy being vertical so im conflicted

no it was removed for the sake of giving doctors more to do at the expense of everyone else

I believe the PR body had both:

1. it was too easy to heal
2. doctors were not really a part of the process.

wouldn't really say it's at the expense of everyone else considering they are already dead.

Helios wrote:

wesoda25 wrote:If you mean the complete removal, it was done so that the pile of cloning bugs could be done away with.

There are other sections of the code which have a pile of bugs, and lie dormant, therefore not receiving the same treatment. I see it as spite. Simple as.

Feel free to open a removal PR for dead code/features.
Sleepers should have been full removed as well, they are practically dead code. But they still serve a very narrow purpose since the syndicate sleepers are still spawning. Even though sleepers are pretty much never used nowadays, someone had to convert the old tgui to new for us to be able to ditch old completely. This is a prime example of maintenance cost of dead features that werent removed when they should have been. If it makes you feel better you may continue calling cloning removal spite.

skoglol wrote:

Helios wrote:

wesoda25 wrote:If you mean the complete removal, it was done so that the pile of cloning bugs could be done away with.

There are other sections of the code which have a pile of bugs, and lie dormant, therefore not receiving the same treatment. I see it as spite. Simple as.

Feel free to open a removal PR for dead code/features.
Sleepers should have been full removed as well, they are practically dead code. But they still serve a very narrow purpose since the syndicate sleepers are still spawning. Even though sleepers are pretty much never used nowadays, someone had to convert the old tgui to new for us to be able to ditch old completely. This is a prime example of maintenance cost of dead features that werent removed when they should have been. If it makes you feel better you may continue calling cloning removal spite.

As you're a code maintainer I obviously can't refute that.
The reason I made this thread a poll, is because I want to gauge the community, to see how many people thought it was worth the effort, at least who browse the forums.
I can admit I am surprised by the amount of people who want them out, and I hope some other people are surprised by the amount of people who want cloners back into the game, at least in some form.

Excuse my sin. I didn't remove sleepers entirely because I didn't want to make an equivalent replacement for all the ruins and syndie shuttle.

This would just make doctors an obstacle rather than a necessity.

Sometimes body of patient is too fucked up and/or exotic. Does producing braindead clone of that sound too bad? Cloner should stay but require at very least brain transplant. T1-tier cloner that spits out braindead would be enough of nerf cloner actually needed.

Experimental cloner ruin was rare find and I don't see why that one was removed.

Cobby wrote:wouldn't really say it's at the expense of everyone else considering they are already dead.

players lapse out of consciousness when killed in game only to awaken on revival

Jack7D1 wrote:This would just make doctors an obstacle rather than a necessity.

EXACTLY

system is fine if 90% of the crew is hubbies npc retards thats cant into basic understanding thats another problem

i just wanna hurt people

Ivuchnu wrote:Sometimes body of patient is too fucked up and/or exotic. Does producing braindead clone of that sound too bad? Cloner should stay but require at very least brain transplant. T1-tier cloner that spits out braindead would be enough of nerf cloner actually needed.

Experimental cloner ruin was rare find and I don't see why that one was removed.

It wasnt rare, it spawned in space every single round. Just like people started bringing space sleepers back when sleepers were removed, they would start bringing the experimental cloner once cloning was removed.

The problem with cloner, even with braindeads and harder to get/do cloning, is that it sets the lower bar for treatment necessary. People will always gravitate towards the path of least resistance, and adding features trying to make our medical system meaningful doesn't work if all it takes is plopping them in the cloner.

only through tedious repetition and extending the length of time people sit out of the round can meaningful gameplay be achieved

skoglol wrote:

Ivuchnu wrote:Sometimes body of patient is too fucked up and/or exotic. Does producing braindead clone of that sound too bad? Cloner should stay but require at very least brain transplant. T1-tier cloner that spits out braindead would be enough of nerf cloner actually needed.

Experimental cloner ruin was rare find and I don't see why that one was removed.

It wasnt rare, it spawned in space every single round. Just like people started bringing space sleepers back when sleepers were removed, they would start bringing the experimental cloner once cloning was removed.

The problem with cloner, even with braindeads and harder to get/do cloning, is that it sets the lower bar for treatment necessary. People will always gravitate towards the path of least resistance, and adding features trying to make our medical system meaningful doesn't work if all it takes is plopping them in the cloner.

make it rarer then? do we not have a rarity value we can set at will like with lavaland ruins?

FloranOtten wrote:For everyone who wants sleepers back, I want you to try something.

Go into a private test server, give yourself some damage, and use a sleeper to heal yourself.

Sucks, doesn't it? You'd end up reverting all of the previous year's medbay changes to get them back.

no it doesn’t suck because I don’t play md give me old med back

Jack7D1 wrote:This would just make doctors an obstacle rather than a necessity.

they are already an obstacle between me and meaningful fucking gameplay

Flatulent wrote: no it doesn’t suck because I don’t play md give me old med back

exactly this

you two should go to boomerstation, It will fit you just fine.

the hard part is getting people to stay in their body long enough to revive them instead of them just assuming they're not going to be able to get back in the round with a functioning eyes/ears/brain

Dead miner will definitely give MDs work to do, TW with good tools + monkeyman organ harvesting for replacement is pretty fucking horribly slow. I personally know how to do all of this and restore anyone to former state of alive and well, but it takes time and I DON'T ENJOY IT. Multisurgery removal hurts further at organ replacement step. I'd rather have shortcut here that does not involve brainswapping said miner into monkeyman and calling it a day. That's new cloning.

I'd just like a way to grow spare bodies as a more official alternative than giving mutadone to monkeys. A body growing machine that would be to monkey-humaning like a cryo chamber is to a freezing shower. (i.e. slower, but less convoluted, more intuitive, and more immersive)

oranges wrote:you two should go to boomerstation, It will fit you just fine.

I hear they are in need of a headcoder as well

Ikoden wrote: Also it's not like it takes fucking ages to revive or heal someone. If you get good at surgery, it's quite fast.

it’s not like surgery just got nerfed or anything

it didnt, skillgain was nerfed but healing was fine prior to skills existing.

You don't even need to re add cloning. Just move genetics back into medbay so when you get a husked miner with completely rotted organs it doesn't take 15 minutes to get them back into the game only for them to slam DNR. I feel like this is a good compromise as it still easier to fix up most people while still giving an easier option to revive those who are REALLY fucked up.

cloning is and always will be a remnant of simpler days
new medical doctors suck fat cock though can we bring back cloning?

saprasam wrote:cloning is and always will be a remnant of simpler days
new medical doctors suck fat cock though can we bring back cloning?

I want them too.
But, the polls seem to be against us. We lost.

Helios wrote:

saprasam wrote:cloning is and always will be a remnant of simpler days
new medical doctors suck fat cock though can we bring back cloning?

I want them too.
But, the polls seem to be against us. We lost.

the end of an era

if the 2016 u.s. presidential election taught us anything it's that the majority isn't always right

It's 4 AM in the morning, Jessica Sulivard has just become a Blood Brother With Max Nugget on round 139858. The night is in full blast and 35 people play on the server. 4 Medical staff and no security. There are two teams of Blood brothers, Max and Jessica (Assistant and Station engineer). Then there is Two unknowns. A clown and cargo technician. Jessica BOLTS to security noticing NO security staff exist or even heads of staff. She calls her antag friend and both of them raid armory and gear up. The other blood brothers attempt to slide past Jessica and the pair mow them down with guns. This is just the beginning....They go out and murder the staff, A poor legless Miner...A cook and poor medical staff. They dissemble the medical machines...Stasis beds...They dissembles people's necks with a spear...The station is theirs. More than half of the station is dead, Do they win? NOPE Both Max and Jessica die on the bridge. 8 People escape out of 35...8...

This is just one example of many reasons why this system is flawed. No one is left to do revival surgery that knows how to, And there are no more stasis.How is this an acceptable system? Even in a situation where there isn't a mass culling of the staff bodies pile up. And people are left to rot, their organs requiring serious medicine to even attempt to fix, Don't forget about that blood too. I fought a heretic yesterday and they used a cleave spell on me. It took me one minute to die from blood loss as I waggled to the medbay. I was never revived and the round was only 25~ Minutes in. We had many medical staff walking around. Not one of them fixed me, I layed on the floor pissed...Waiting for someone to fix me. No one did, The shuttle came and took everyone away. The lack of fast cloning to how fast you die has made pissed me off and made a massive issue for the server.
https://gyazo.com/e18c1d6b39d60cef8c11475341099b24
These people are all cloneable, Fixable but they lie dead on the floor because the last medical doctor died, The last doctor who knew how to revive people. One of them died in less than 30 seconds and lasted the ENTIRE game on the medical floor. Bring back cloning. In my whole Seven years of playing ss13 never has cloning been an issue...Hell it takes upwards of 6-7 Minutes just to clone a person, Put them in cryo and let their genetic deformities fix themselves. I'm not sure if I'm complaining more about the new damage system or the lack of cloning but I guess I'll complain about both. Please for the love of fucking god re-add clones at least give people the ability to research them for god sakes. Research exists to add cool shit for medical, engineering staff, etc.

legoscape wrote:-snip-

You may not have had fun but at least the medical system was working as intended.

Yes, when roles (particularly BOTH sec and med) are not doing their job there comes a consequence to that. I think it's great that these jobs have real value, and I'd like to see that value translate into other jobs as well so everyone has an interest to "keep the machine running".

When I read that I think both the armory's supply should be reflective of the station pop so we dont have armory rushers who now have enough guns to take down a 70+ server, let alone one at 35 pop.

HommandoSA wrote:

legoscape wrote:-snip-

You may not have had fun but at least the medical system was working as intended.

Well if it was working as intended 6 medical doctors should be able to revive everyone and keep everyone healthy MID GAME...But it doesn't

Cobby wrote:Yes, when roles (particularly BOTH sec and med) are not doing their job there comes a consequence to that. I think it's great that these jobs have real value, and I'd like to see that value translate into other jobs as well so everyone has an interest to "keep the machine running".

When I read that I think both the armory's supply should be reflective of the station pop so we dont have armory rushers who now have enough guns to take down a 70+ server, let alone one at 35 pop.

No stop. Stop ruining the game...Just revert the old shit back to how it was. It takes a long time to revive people in a cloner that should be how it is. Don't change other aspects of the game because medical changes everything.
This non cloning system was not thought of at all. Coders are good at coding they're not good at game design. Or even asking what people want. "They just do things" - Joker