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Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:26 am
by Cimika
Introduction
Hi, my name is Cimika, also known as Kathy Ryals, or Anderson Auman. I mainly play on Manuel and Terry, in Science or Medical. Today, I would like to talk about some current problems that I, and some other Science players, have felt the need to address.

The Issue
Genetics is an extremely powergame-y job. Geneticists (at least the good ones), can research all the important and powerful mutations by the fifteen minutes mark, every shift. More often than not, they'll then stick them in a few DNA Console in a public hallway, and everyone in the crew will proceed to stab themselves with syringes until they get all the insanely powerful mutations. Some of the bigger problems with this are X-ray and Hulk. Hulk mutations is often used on LRP servers by tiders to grief the station, and are somewhat annoying to stop, while X-ray is just incredibly good, and in turns, makes it impossible for antagonists to try and be stealthy, or hide bodies, or follow some gimmicks, since everyone is able to see them through walls.
This first part of the problem leads into the second one. Geneticists, past the fifteen minutes of "work", are just glorified assistants with a guaranteed access to some incredible powergaming tools. More often than not, when a Geneticist is done with his "job", that is when they built the DNA Console in the hallway, they'll just become tiders and / or validhunters.

My Proposed Solution
I propose a simple change to this problem that I feel would help tide over these issues, while waiting for a real, fully fledged Genetics rework. I would like to make it so you can only print one mutator syringe by completed sequence. What that means is that, for every mutator, the Geneticist would have to find a person / monkeyman with the latent sequence, complete it (via hand or activator) then print a mutator. In regards to combined mutations (Xray, Hulk etc..), saving a mutation to the console would deplete the sequence from the person you're saving it from, and combining them would deplete the mutations you've saved on the console.
I believe that this change would stop everyone on the station from stockpiling powergaming tools like Xray, TK or Space Adaptation, and it would also give Geneticist a real purpose past the first mutations speedrun, since they now have to "farm" mutations for people who would like them.

Of course, I plan on coding these changes myself, but I'm hoping to gather feedback on my idea.

Thanks for reading, and have a nice day.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:17 am
by Tiviplus
The primary issue I see here is that does not address the issue where they have nothing to do afterwards but tide, and instead is more of a "Get yourself gamer mutations then go tide the rest of the station".
As you said, the issue is the speedrunn-ableness of genetics, so perhaps you should rework it to expand on the run around and scan things aspect?

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:26 am
by Cimika
They have things to do ! Now everytime they want to make a mutator for someone, they have to actually look for someone with the sequence, get them to genetics, activate it and print the mutator. Or they can also scramble monkeymen until they find the sequence. Either way it gives them busywork and prevent them from just going to tide after they unlocked the mutations for the first time.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:47 am
by XDTM
This kind of solution would probably make geneticists behave the same way but not bother sharing anything anymore, much like old RnD where they used to print all the gamer gear and then go greytide/validhunt with it.

A possible middle way would be to keep mutations infinite, but with some busywork before applying it to new patients. Maybe instead of an universal mutator it would need to be a gene-to-gene mutator, so for example it could transform a latent epilepsy gene into an active hulk gene, but it would be ineffective on people without latent epilepsy.
That way you still need to scan DNAs and make custom injectors, instead of having a DIY mutation vending machine in the halls.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:52 am
by Cimika
XDTM wrote:This kind of solution would probably make geneticists behave the same way but not bother sharing anything anymore, much like old RnD where they used to print all the gamer gear and then go greytide/validhunt with it.


That's a very fair point. Since I mostly play on Manuel, I hadn't taken into account that people on LRP servers wouldn't even bother giving mutations to other players.

But then I wonder where we draw the line between balance issues and player behaviour issue. I strongly believe that current genetics is absurdly bonkers strong and I'm tired of people running around with every mutations, destroying antagonist thanks to xray and such.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:09 am
by XDTM
Yeah, i believe that sharing genetics power should require an effort of the same caliber as surgical upgrades, hence my other suggestion of customized injectors.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:14 am
by Cimika
Your idea is nice, but then they could just dump a bunch of Genetic Sequence Analyzers and let people make the mutator themselves, which would lead right back to the "mutation vendor" issue.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:38 am
by Tlaltecuhtli
>Genetics is an extremely powergame-y job. Geneticists (at least the good ones), can research all the important and powerful mutations by the fifteen minutes mark, [i]every

up the amount of double x so they need more monkeys for good powers
there done

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:12 am
by Cimika
That would only serve to postpone the problem slightly, and then people would still run around with their mutations etc....

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:28 pm
by Jack7D1
PostThis post was deleted by Cobby on Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:40 pm.
Reason: Gooood Morning!

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:32 pm
by Tlaltecuhtli
if the problem is 15 min speedrun then just move it to 30 min problem solved

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:52 pm
by XDTM
I had the opposite problem with nanites, where mostly players made a cloud for themselves and did not share it. That was most likely tied to the fact that another player originally had to operate the machine to implant nanites, and even after i added public nanite chambers they were still a bit of a hassle to build, and not as portable as injectors.

Perhaps adding mutations should not be doable via injector if you don't have the latent gene, and only doable by someone else with the dna chamber? It would definitely make it harder to mass-distribute, and the receivers would need to be wary since the geneticist could easily turn them into monkeys while they're vulnerable.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:07 pm
by Cimika
I actually really like that idea, except that they can just build a scanner as well next to the console and use their OOC knowledge to operate it.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:27 pm
by XDTM
The essential thing here is that it has to require another person: it's a dealbreaker for a lot of powergaming personalities, since relying on anyone else is something to be avoided at all costs. Thus, gating significant upgrades by requiring a heavy deal of trust you either reduce powergaming or promote collaboration, both of which are generally good outcomes.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:41 pm
by Timberpoes
Counter issue is requiring two people for geneticists to utilise their own job.

Make sure you don't turn Genetics into a job where the person doing the job can't properly benefit from the fruits of their own labours. Additionally, from an MRP/Manuel perspective, don't turn Genetics in to a job where Geneticists are relying on non-Geneticists to benefit from the fruits of their own labours - ESPECIALLY on rounds where only one Geneticist is on staff.

You could lock certain features behind the currently held ID - However, our current de-facto method of ID checks on interfaces of log in/log out wouldn't really address concerns of a geneticist putting out a public DNA Console. If a geneticist wanted to set up a public console, they'd just log in and leave it logged in.

You could also lock printing mutators and/or activators behind holding a Genetics Lab enabled ID, but I'm not certain if there's any precedent for a computer working in this manner (denying access based on held ID rather than denying access if not logged in)

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:44 pm
by RaveRadbury
Timberpoes wrote:Make sure you don't turn Genetics into a job where the person doing the job can't properly benefit from the fruits of their own labours.

I think it's worth mentioning that Medbay and Robotics (and Cargo, after a fashion) are all areas where the player cannot benefit themselves with their own buffs (surgeries, augments (mostly), ID-Locked Crates). So it's not unreasonable to lock some mutations behind needing someone to do it to you.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:54 pm
by Super Aggro Crag
Maybe a combo mutatio like Halk or X-Roy need a person to help cuz the mutagen need to be precise administer at same time

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:13 pm
by PKPenguin321
The high effort solution is to continue to dilute the genetics pool so damn much that you will never, ever get all of them in one shift and consequently never see the same exact set of mutations between multiple rounds

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:15 pm
by PKPenguin321
Also, @op, please clarify: I am 99% certain that "15 minutes to completion" is gross hyperbole, but if there's some kind of exploit to speed it up, that should be made known and fixed

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:29 pm
by MisterPerson
PKPenguin321 wrote:The high effort solution is to continue to dilute the genetics pool so damn much that you will never, ever get all of them in one shift and consequently never see the same exact set of mutations between multiple rounds


While this wouldn't improve current Genetics, in general this is a reasonable design goal other parts of the game (R&D especially) should consider trying. And a redesign of Genetics should probably also do this imo.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:39 pm
by Helios
If anyone remembers how old genetics worked, the length of radiation bursts were meant to deal with this. Having to wait whenever you changed a gene is what prevented all of the powers from being discovered within 15 minutes.
The redesign of genetics addressed that by making it more of an active thing. And at first, you wouldn't see all of the powers out until like 40 minutes into a round. Genetics is also a rather simple game, and players have gotten better and better at it. Having played a lot of genetics, there's a lot of techniques you see being used that were never there before. Things like humanizing every single monkey, then using activators to harvest chromosomes, so they can stack powers.
People are playing genetics as intended, and any minor nerfs will result in regular players having more difficulty with the job, and experienced players optimizing around them as if they weren't there.

Re: "remaster genetics" but actually "nerf genetics"? Please no.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:49 pm
by Ivuchnu
Last time I played genetics it was extremely boring minigame. Fixing GCAT pairs to unlock power, sometimes scanning additional humans/monkeymen and using JOKER? Seriously? Idea of preventing those who do boring job like that from sharing their effort results with station sounds way too similar to idea voiced in thread with ideas how to change virology for the sake of changing things (and my position is "do not change, maybe just add more cool symptoms both on death and healvirus sides").

Do not fix "genetics power vendor" thing.

P.S. also lol @ "powergamey" being invoked by nonantag botanist with deathplants

Re: "remaster genetics" but actually "nerf genetics"? Please no.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:10 am
by Armhulen
Ivuchnu wrote:Last time I played genetics it was extremely boring minigame. Fixing GCAT pairs to unlock power, sometimes scanning additional humans/monkeymen and using JOKER? Seriously? Idea of preventing those who do boring job like that from sharing their effort results with station sounds way too similar to idea voiced in thread with ideas how to change virology for the sake of changing things (and my position is "do not change, maybe just add more cool symptoms both on death and healvirus sides").

Do not fix "genetics power vendor" thing.

P.S. also lol @ "powergamey" being invoked by nonantag botanist with deathplants

I mean medical doctor was barely a job until recently, and before chemfactory I mean chemists just pressed buttons UNTIL that got replaced by copy pasting in recipes

i think a lot of our jobs have sucked it's just genetics waiting for someone to care enough to save it

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:02 pm
by Iatots
Everyone keeps talking about technique like it's some art form. Square peg goes in square hole, it's not that complicated. The only thing that I guess requires two neurons is to realize that going from one valid block pair to the next the shortest way is to click one with left mouse and the other with right. You can see it in the gifs posted on https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -645008981


Helios wrote:there's a lot of techniques you see being used that were never there before. Things like humanizing every single monkey, then using activators to harvest chromosomes, so they can stack powers.

I have no fucking idea what this means. But shit I just remembered you don't actually need to give an activator to someone with the right gene to roll for a chromie. Guess that needs fixing.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:53 pm
by griffithlol
Speaking as a primairly lrp player, I would like if people asked the question is making a tedious job more tedious fun? Genetics is boring, thats the real problem, and the minigame involved is barely even a game. Lets get into that a bit.

So you are starting out as a gene man looking for powers. You humanize your monkey, and begin looking for genes to sequence. If you are lucky, one or more has all pairs half filled, and you fill in the rest and save it easy peasy. If theres one empty pair, that means there are four possible combinations, so you get to click through each one and thats fun. If theres two empty pairs, you have to go through every possible combination gives 16 combinations to dully click through. Three pairs gives you 64, and so on. So you basically sit there, clicking buttons dully and spamming scramble dna until you unlock the meager selection of powers, only several of which you can use at a time. Most of the powers are either next to useless, or actually harm you, and this makes the best part of genetics when you get your powers and get to leave.

There's no creativity to it, no variation, and the only fun you can have as a genecist is when you finally get one of the several good powers, most of the being next to useless and uninteresting. My point is that the fundamentals of how genetics works are broken. making it more boring is pretty much just sabotaging the fun of your own game.

Instead of stop-gap measures, attempting to brainstorm a more dynamic genetics that rewards mastery and creativity. This is not as easy as simply adding more powers, or making it slower and more boring. your problem could be solved as simply as by controlling the spawns of genetics powers so that none of the better ones would ever spawn having less that two empty pairs. But I fail to see how this makes your game more interesting. The best parts of ss13 are the parts of it that inspire creativity, such as atmospherics and toxins. These are the kind of mechanics that will introduce longevity to your game, and make it challenging as well as fun, solving both problems in a single stroke.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:22 pm
by Shadowflame909
There's no creativity to it, no variation, and the only fun you can have as a genecist is when you finally get one of the several good powers, most of the being next to useless and uninteresting. My point is that the fundamentals of how genetics works are broken. making it more boring is pretty much just sabotaging the fun of your own game.


Yeah, the issue with most of our jobs is the only value is the eventual reward.

Medical Doctors do not find clicking on a horizontal body until it is upright fun. But they do find the appreciation of those they heal rewarding.

Xenobiologists do not find click to spawn monkey, wait 1 minute, spawn another monkey, wait 1 minute, grind up slimes for tiny slimes fun.

The powers are the reward.

The most interesting jobs that are always taken IMO is cook and miner. Because they require so much more thought and freedom in the specifics of their round. The cook could decide to do an all breakfast course, american style, italian, vegetarian, literally whatever they can think of thematically. The miner can also decide weather to go ruin hunting, dragon fighting, tendril slaying, or just casually destroy some ore. Always with the fear of the unknown lingering on their mind.


I guess what I'm trying to say is versatility is key. Genetics just doesn't have that, so it can be quite boring.

Don't even get me started on the most boring job in this game though, that being the janitor.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:08 pm
by Jack7D1
Blessed janitors, never speak ill of them.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:19 pm
by Shadowflame909
Jack7D1 wrote:Blessed janitors, never speak ill of them.


Woopsie the clown spilled salt everywhere

Clean it up jannie

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:23 pm
by RaveRadbury
Shadowflame909 wrote:Don't even get me started on the most boring job in this game though, that being the janitor.

This says so much about you.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:26 pm
by Shadowflame909
RaveRadbury wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:Don't even get me started on the most boring job in this game though, that being the janitor.

This says so much about you.


The jannie likes the janitor job

he does it for free

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:34 pm
by griffithlol
you think chef is more interesting than atmospherics or the supermatter? Also xenobio may be a bit to slow, but there is a lot of different thing you can do with the slimes, and potentials to be explored. Shame tg dosent have circuits.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:39 pm
by Shadowflame909
griffithlol wrote:you think chef is more interesting than atmospherics?


atmos's learning curb is too steep for me. The most I can do with it is pump plasma to distro, and change all the air alarms to siphon plasma.

Re: Slight Genetics remaster.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:10 pm
by vkalls
While I don't think this is the BEST solution, I do think this is a good and acceptable solution, seeing as how this is the best solution I have seen so far. I would like to suggest that decoding a gene give multiple uses though (maybe 2 or 3), so that you still give out genes, but you need to choose wisely.