Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

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Do you like this idea

No
18
60%
Yes (or Yes, but with some tweaks)
12
40%
 
Total votes : 30

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remanseptim
 
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby remanseptim » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:33 pm #579397

why do some people think spending 20 minutes patching up holes in the floor every other round is in any way entertaining
it can be a nice change of pace but not to the point where it's laborious
some people want ss13 to feel like you're actually working, i swear
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Flatulent » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:09 pm #579403

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:02 pm #579404

remanseptim wrote:why do some people think spending 20 minutes patching up holes in the floor every other round is in any way entertaining
it can be a nice change of pace but not to the point where it's laborious
some people want ss13 to feel like you're actually working, i swear


but how do you make repairing after of putting plating good gameplay?

more decorative things easly available to engis?

construction vehicles that steamline flooring/cable/piping with fun possible workplace incidents?

magic duct tape

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby remanseptim » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:12 pm #579410

the final revelation is that 99% of the gameplay in ss13 is not fun more than the first couple of times, regardless of how intricate the mechanics are
it's fun because it's always a bit different due to how the rest of the station interacts with it
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:48 pm #579431

remanseptim wrote:why do some people think spending 20 minutes patching up holes in the floor every other round is in any way entertaining
it can be a nice change of pace but not to the point where it's laborious
some people want ss13 to feel like you're actually working, i swear

Because it's a social experience where your actions and choices affect the gameplay of others. Things that would be boring in single-player are often fun with others. Try booting up a server alone and doing stuff that you enjoy on live servers.

And nobody is making you play engi! But confronting absurd threats to the station is what this game is about. Those threats are varied. If you'd rather not confront them and just reset the game whenever they arise, it sounds like you don't really enjoy Space Station 13. Which is fine, but other people do, and rounds shouldn't be terminated as soon as a game feature occurs.

By the way, we need to stop thinking in the binary between "station successfully repairs itself to 100% functionality" and "round ends." Players dealing with a station missing, say, medical, or cargo, can result in an interesting and unique round. Even if the power or comms dies, that can result a really cool atmosphere where the station has to deal with the threat while they are alone in the dark, stumbling upon other players with flashlights while trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Rounds like that are really cool but rarely happen because "something unexpected occurred, call the shuttle."

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby cacogen » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:34 am #579462

Flatulent wrote:
obi wan kaczynski wrote:
Flatulent wrote:
Flatulent wrote:double kek. the restart votes are often impossible even in extreme situations on highpop because many players dont even know how to fucking vote or are ssd. the funny ice box 400% TD round on Terry comes to mind. The restart vote failed MULTIPLE times despite the game being an unplayable fucking mess from a gorillion runtimes grinding the server to a halt.

the fuck is with pro-shuttle people not reading the posts they quote? I said that WE CAN CHANGE THE RESTART MECHANIC

it already works fine in concept. the only way to improve it is to add a restart preference in game preferences. the options would be: 1. auto-restart vote when not voting; 2. dont count vote when not voting

It depends on the round though. It'd be better if it didn't have a separate window or in addition to the window just output something to the chat in a large font with two hyperlinks, one for yes and one for no.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby remanseptim » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:00 pm #579499

obi wan kaczynski wrote:Even if the power or comms dies, that can result a really cool atmosphere where the station has to deal with the threat while they are alone in the dark, stumbling upon other players with flashlights while trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Rounds like that are really cool but rarely happen because "something unexpected occurred, call the shuttle."

rounds like that are predictable and i'll point to nightmares as an example
by design nightmares are meant to be spooky murdermen who stalk maint and create a scenario like you mentioned
the issue comes when a geneticist and a tider storm into maint dragging desk lamps with flashes, emp'd defibs, and a stun baton they stole from Urist McSecurity
it becomes routine. at least in this scenario there's a valid to hunt and a heart to vore. when something like a full station blackout occurs people are just annoyed their beaker is stuck in the dispenser or their intricate slime-breeding spree has been interrupted.

tl;dr players call the shuttle because situations like you suggest are primarily just annoying
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:22 pm #579521

remanseptim wrote:
obi wan kaczynski wrote:Even if the power or comms dies, that can result a really cool atmosphere where the station has to deal with the threat while they are alone in the dark, stumbling upon other players with flashlights while trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Rounds like that are really cool but rarely happen because "something unexpected occurred, call the shuttle."

rounds like that are predictable and i'll point to nightmares as an example
by design nightmares are meant to be spooky murdermen who stalk maint and create a scenario like you mentioned
the issue comes when a geneticist and a tider storm into maint dragging desk lamps with flashes, emp'd defibs, and a stun baton they stole from Urist McSecurity
it becomes routine. at least in this scenario there's a valid to hunt and a heart to vore. when something like a full station blackout occurs people are just annoyed their beaker is stuck in the dispenser or their intricate slime-breeding spree has been interrupted.

tl;dr players call the shuttle because situations like you suggest are primarily just annoying


I totally understand. And I think a priority of ss13 development should be improving such situations: not just nightmares, but every aftermath of things going wrong that would right now create a boring round. I think the game should become another kind of interesting/spooky once the station starts failing.

I think this isn't the case right now because SS13 has no cohesive vision: it's a lot of unrelated goals sutured together because everyone adds on their ideas independently, since there's no vision-boss. Is it a sandbox game? Is it an exploration game? Is it a mafia style paranoia game? It's all of these things, and I think that's actually an advantage once a developer starts leveraging these aspects against one another.


EDIT: yeah the shuttle in its current state is a game-ruining mechanic
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby oranges » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:24 am #579531

this guy really hates shuttles lmao

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby VexingRaven » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:31 am #579533

What if the default shuttle timer was 20 minutes instead of 10? And red alert was 10? You'd have time for those interesting interactions (station missing medbay and people are hurt, what do?) rather than waiting in escape.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby cacogen » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:12 pm #579602

Is there anyone who doesn't hate having their round end prematurely?

obi wan kaczynski wrote:I think this isn't the case right now because SS13 has no cohesive vision: it's a lot of unrelated goals sutured together because everyone adds on their ideas independently, since there's no vision-boss. Is it a sandbox game? Is it an exploration game? Is it a mafia style paranoia game? It's all of these things, and I think that's actually an advantage once a developer starts leveraging these aspects against one another.

The project doesn't benefit from a dictator holding it hostage. I agree though that if it's boring to stay and deal with something it should be changed rather than accepting the game can end prematurely as a result of people not wanting to deal with it. Boring or unfun never seem to be taken seriously as criticisms of this game though. For example, making medbay tedium for the patients to give doctors something more to do.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:08 pm #579624

VexingRaven wrote:What if the default shuttle timer was 20 minutes instead of 10? And red alert was 10? You'd have time for those interesting interactions (station missing medbay and people are hurt, what do?) rather than waiting in escape.

My gut tells me that a shuttle call of any time will just make people collapse their time horizons and semi-AFK. why revive people who will just be reset in a predictable amount of time? But I would support a longer shuttle transit time just to see.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby oranges » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:12 pm #579625

cacogen wrote:Is there anyone who doesn't hate having their round end prematurely?

obi wan kaczynski wrote:I think this isn't the case right now because SS13 has no cohesive vision: it's a lot of unrelated goals sutured together because everyone adds on their ideas independently, since there's no vision-boss. Is it a sandbox game? Is it an exploration game? Is it a mafia style paranoia game? It's all of these things, and I think that's actually an advantage once a developer starts leveraging these aspects against one another.

The project doesn't benefit from a dictator holding it hostage. I agree though that if it's boring to stay and deal with something it should be changed rather than accepting the game can end prematurely as a result of people not wanting to deal with it. Boring or unfun never seem to be taken seriously as criticisms of this game though. For example, making medbay tedium for the patients to give doctors something more to do.

LMAO

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby MisterPerson » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:52 pm #579632

While I'll agree that the escape shtutle is a fairly poor mechanic, if you want to replace it, you need to suggest what to replace it with. The "restart vote to end rounds" design fails to end the round for a satisfying, definitive reason and is also explicitly OOC. I therefore think it's not an improvement.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Screemonster » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:49 pm #579638

if you want a fixed round length then why not play on one of the numerous downstreams that have such a thing instead of bitching about how many rounds in a row that sybil wrapped up in around half an hour

some people don't have the free time to hop on for two fucking hours of spessmans and a 30 minute round is pretty much a perfect "get a quick game in while I wait for my show to start / wind down for the evening / my dinner is cooking" timeframe

right now op is bitching about one guy out of fifty being able to end the round but it's also cancer for one guy out of fifty to demand the round continue when everyone else is fucking done

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:21 pm #579641

Mod edit: No personal insults please.

MisterPerson wrote:While I'll agree that the escape shtutle is a fairly poor mechanic, if you want to replace it, you need to suggest what to replace it with. The "restart vote to end rounds" design fails to end the round for a satisfying, definitive reason and is also explicitly OOC. I therefore think it's not an improvement.


The vote would be IC
Last edited by MisterPerson on Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostThis post was deleted by MisterPerson on Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:15 am.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby cacogen » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:19 am #579645

ugh
Last edited by cacogen on Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:02 am #579651

Counterpoint: it’s not
Naloac wrote:Since you have asked for a *community opinion* and im the player voted admin. Ill give you my official opinion straight from the *community* Your fucking retarded

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:12 am #579652

wesoda25 wrote:Counterpoint: it’s not

This is literally the depth of the autistic crowd's arguments for Just-World Theory. Zero (0) people have made an argument in favor of the status quo yet, it's just manchild squealing

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby iamgoofball » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:12 am #579653

obi wan kaczynski wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Counterpoint: it’s not

This is literally the depth of the autistic crowd's arguments for Just-World Theory. Zero (0) people have made an argument in favor of the status quo yet, it's just manchild squealing

why are you being so ableist? like half your posts in this thread involve insults towards people on the spectrum

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:51 am #579664

I just want people to make actual arguments in one direction or another, not just shrieking their heads off and stomping their feet saying "NO NO NO!!!!"

Every single pro status-quo argument here is exactly that, or hangs on points already addressed several times. it's tiring and this culture of childish stubbornness is a problem with the game

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby TheFinalPotato » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:23 am #579665

While I haven't really been following this, taking such a vitriolic stance, especially towards respected members of the community, is not going to pay off well in the long run. I've mentioned writing a design doc at some point, but you've mentioned this thread as that doc. I don't think the discussion here will resolve well, especially if things continue as they are.

What is your "next step", and what would it involve?
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:31 am #579666

TheFinalPotato wrote:While I haven't really been following this, taking such a vitriolic stance, especially towards respected members of the community, is not going to pay off well in the long run. I've mentioned writing a design doc at some point, but you've mentioned this thread as that doc. I don't think the discussion here will resolve well, especially if things continue as they are.

What is your "next step", and what would it involve?

Make a PR? I dunno, what do you recommend? I guess I could just take the best ideas from this thread and put it into the doc. I think I will do that.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:05 am #579714

obi wan kaczynski wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Counterpoint: it’s not

This is literally the depth of the autistic crowd's arguments for Just-World Theory. Zero (0) people have made an argument in favor of the status quo yet, it's just manchild squealing

I already told you my thoughts in discord. I just found the bold statement of shuttle call being "the worst mechanic" to be funny.
Naloac wrote:Since you have asked for a *community opinion* and im the player voted admin. Ill give you my official opinion straight from the *community* Your fucking retarded

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby MisterPerson » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:27 am #579716

obi wan kaczynski wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:While I'll agree that the escape shtutle is a fairly poor mechanic, if you want to replace it, you need to suggest what to replace it with. The "restart vote to end rounds" design fails to end the round for a satisfying, definitive reason and is also explicitly OOC. I therefore think it's not an improvement.


The vote would be IC


The vote itself would be sure, but the decision making for choosing how to vote would be OOC. Additionally what I mean by IC vs OOC has more to do with other game mechanics tying into it. In other words, in an ideal world we'd have a traitor objective like "End the round in the first 30 minutes". Obviously that's not really feasible with the current shuttle call system, but it's even LESS viable with a vote-for-shuttle system.

Just off the top of my head, the bones of a good system might be more like the crew has to do something (or prevent something bad from happening) and after awhile of things going right, the round ends. And if the crew fucks up too much, the round also ends because Centcom cuts off contact and abandons the station (or something that actually destroys the station happens, whatever).
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby terranaut » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:32 am #579731

obi wan kaczynski wrote:Mod edit: No personal insults please.

MisterPerson wrote:While I'll agree that the escape shtutle is a fairly poor mechanic, if you want to replace it, you need to suggest what to replace it with. The "restart vote to end rounds" design fails to end the round for a satisfying, definitive reason and is also explicitly OOC. I therefore think it's not an improvement.


The vote would be IC

so you cant vote if youre dead?
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:39 am.

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:46 am #579816

terranaut wrote:
obi wan kaczynski wrote:Mod edit: No personal insults please.

MisterPerson wrote:While I'll agree that the escape shtutle is a fairly poor mechanic, if you want to replace it, you need to suggest what to replace it with. The "restart vote to end rounds" design fails to end the round for a satisfying, definitive reason and is also explicitly OOC. I therefore think it's not an improvement.


The vote would be IC

so you cant vote if youre dead?


Right. That's an important aspect to be considered, but IC vs OOC is kind of a bikeshed at this point

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Shaps-cloud » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:42 pm #579822

Imagine making this thread and all these posts and spending a bunch of time in discord yelling about this and still affecting zero change
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:04 pm #579823

Has this gone on long enough that i can make a personal attack on this dude and hypothetically call him a bowlegged micropenis-having bog dweller because every time you argue against his shit he says YOU ARENT PROVIDING A DEFENSE FOR THE STATUS QUO IM NOT LISTENING LALALALALALLALA YOU'RE JUST A MAD SPERG

Frig off fartboy someone telling you why your idea is shit is valid, we dont have to come up with an alternative to your shitty idea for you because you're too much of a spastic. Oh my god, a round end ic vote? Are you fucking dense? I know you're on the dole, being a fucking mushbrained degenerative disease having golem, but in real life people don't just all get together and vote on what time they'd like to leave work at.
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby trollbreeder » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:37 pm #579824

Super Aggro Crag wrote:but in real life people don't just all get together and vote on what time they'd like to leave work at.

You've forgotten a key part. This ain't real life. It's game. Why you have to be mad?
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:45 pm #579825

If this turd smuggling dickrider says "calling the evacuation shuttle because people sre bored" isn't realistic then its valid for me to bring that up trollbreeder you white woman
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:59 pm #579834

Super Aggro Crag wrote: in real life people don't just all get together and vote on what time they'd like to leave work at.

if we unionized we could do this

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby cacogen » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:56 pm #579844

Shame this thread got off-track because rounds ending prematurely is a genuine problem and always has been
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby obi wan kaczynski » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:57 pm #579852

cacogen wrote:Shame this thread got off-track because rounds ending prematurely is a genuine problem and always has been

yeah there has been some good discussion but people are losing their minds over the suggestion

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:20 am #579857

you got banned lol
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby XDTM » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:17 am #579869

So can you just swap the poll options in this forum to suit you after they've been voted on? This might be the third time where the option with the majority got changed from "No" to "Yes (or Yes, but with some tweaks)"
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Screemonster » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:00 am #579872

cacogen wrote:Shame this thread got off-track because rounds ending prematurely is a genuine problem and always has been

maybe if op wasn't so intensely abrasive and didn't respond to criticism of his implementation by screaming and calling people autistic, dismissing objections out of hand with no counterpoint besides personal attacks, he wouldn't provoke the "well fuck you too" reaction

even if his idea was a good idea his demeanour drives people away from it

some natural means to allow the round to come to a conclusion that isn't the emergency shuttle would be interesting, especially if it was implied that evacuating on a round where evacuation isn't the win condition counts as a crew loss, but it's impossible to get any constructive discussion done without this guy screaming at you

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Screemonster » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:02 am #579873

XDTM wrote:So can you just swap the poll options in this forum to suit you after they've been voted on? This might be the third time where the option with the majority got changed from "No" to "Yes (or Yes, but with some tweaks)"

lmaaaaoooooooo you're right holy damn take the L my dude

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:28 am #579876

Holy shit XDTM you got him
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Misdoubtful » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:09 pm #579881

Screemonster wrote:
cacogen wrote:Shame this thread got off-track because rounds ending prematurely is a genuine problem and always has been

maybe if op wasn't so intensely abrasive and didn't respond to criticism of his implementation by screaming and calling people autistic, dismissing objections out of hand with no counterpoint besides personal attacks, he wouldn't provoke the "well fuck you too" reaction

even if his idea was a good idea his demeanour drives people away from it


In todays news, unsurprisingly to no one...

  1. Resorting to referring to everyone that disagrees with you as the 'autistic crowd' won't make the 'sheeple' listen to your 'wisdom'. Only confirm to them they are right.
  2. This is a lesson that some people aren't interested, not mentally incapacitated. Name calling won't change peoples minds.
  3. Opening an idea to feedback just to shut down the feedback you receive doesn't work. Feedback is feedback, even if you don't like it.
  4. Feedback does not have to be constructive criticism.

XDTM wrote:So can you just swap the poll options in this forum to suit you after they've been voted on? This might be the third time where the option with the majority got changed from "No" to "Yes (or Yes, but with some tweaks)"


Also, lol, vote fixing.

cacogen wrote:Shame this thread got off-track because rounds ending prematurely is a genuine problem and always has been


Is this more or less of an issue of rounds lasting too long though? Content can be provided with the expectation of there to be enough to last a certain duration, but then again it is a little bit of a sandbox.

Does restricting the potential for rounds to end earlier restrict the potential for the sandbox parts to be sandbox parts?

How can prevention of that actually even be achieved? Things like Nuclear Ops, round ending mid round antagonists, big antag plays etc. The station typically decays over time, not really improves. Otherwise rounds would last far too long. Sometimes that means things fall apart faster than usual.

Having content and the way that content gets used are two separate things, right?
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Flatulent » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:41 pm #579883

iamgoofball wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote: in real life people don't just all get together and vote on what time they'd like to leave work at.

if we unionized we could do this

get the fuck out of here with this
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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:06 pm #579887

what makes the round end before oranges 1:30 timer:
- lack of content

what makes the round end before the 50 min timer (current end game of content):
- servers not being dynamic if they still use the crappy gamemode system
- plasmaflooding
- maxcaps or atmos singlecaps
- capable people being in the antag side while retard pubbies redditors as sec
- antag calling and retard pubbies redditors unable to recall because the wiki doesnt have a solution to this
- boredoom/burnout from current content

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Re: Shuttle call is the worst mechanic in SS13 and should be revamped

Postby oranges » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:04 pm #579898

what a mess.

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