Cult Rework Discussion

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datorangebottle
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Cult Rework Discussion

Post by datorangebottle » #619907

Problems this attempts to address:
Stun is too consistently powerful.
One of the most constant complaints about blood cult is that they're too difficult to engage in melee because of their instant win funny hand. The stun requires no thought and you can easily carry multiple of them and lose very little.

There's not enough actual blood magic, and some spells are underused.
Few cultists use blood rites. You see maybe one or two blood rites spells per round if the cult really gets going, with very experienced cultists. Yes, they use the rune system to draw with their own blood- but blood rites lets you draw on the power of blood in general, not just your own. This includes stealing the blood of your enemies and using it against them, which is metal as fuck.

Suggestions:
  • Add stun to blood rites. It costs a minimum 50 charges, maximum 100 charges. at minimum, it's just the heretic stinky hand with mute/semi-mute instead of damage. At maximum, it's current cult hand.
This adds levers we can use to adjust the cult stun to make it more/less powerful, instead of being all or nothing. I imagine it getting more powerful the more blood you spend, with it just taking as much as it can every time you use it. This makes the stun a choice- is it worth running in to stun hand the security officer, or should I shoot at him from afar with barrage? Will I need the halberd for its block chance later, or should I spend the 100 points hardstunning someone?
It also allows more use of the other cult spells. Currently, cult equips two to three stuns and a teleport and go to town. Being able to have those stuns in one spell instead of three allows them to carry, say, twisted construction, EMP, or hallucinations; spells that don't get used nearly enough suddenly become viable when there's less of a trade-off in this department. Instead of competing with other spells, the funny hand would be competing with other blood rites.
I've noticed that this would conflict with a current use of blood rites, which is to steal blood from your enemies. My suggestion to fix that is to switch the controls- left clicking with blood rites would use the stun, while right clicking would drain.
  • Change how blood rites works in a few ways. Allow cultists to offer their blood rites hand to ask for blood from other cultists. Also, make blood draining a channel instead of instant.
The offer button is really cool. Giving a cult spell that functionality would also be really cool, while also answering the question of, "Well, how do cultists get stuns early on?" Adding onto this, making it a channel allows you to control how much blood you take from your allies, while making it difficult to get more blood mid-fight for stuns; akin to having to charge your stun baton, except you're sticking your hand on your buddy's/enemy's heart instead of sticking the baton in the charger. Finally, this makes pylons more necessary because of the passive blood regeneration they grant, making bases slightly easier to find.

I believe that with these changes, we'll see more cool blood halberds, more evil kamehamehas, and someone might actually use blood barrage! I've never seen it used in person.
Last edited by datorangebottle on Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: Mild cult rework

Post by Mothblocks » #619915

The stun hand is the only reason cult is able to win at all, it's the best analog to rev-conversions (which are a flash and done). Nerfing stun hands has been linked to dramatic decreases in cult winrates, such as when it was made to not stun on mindshielded opponents.

Furthermore, it's a goal of current maintainers looking at cult to decrease its complexity, not add even more paths the cult flow chart can take.
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wesoda25
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Re: Mild cult rework

Post by wesoda25 » #619934

Yeah in my eyes this would gatekeep stun hand behind more content which would make new players even more useless to the cult, understandable why people would want something like this but in the big picture it’s a misstep I think.
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Re: Mild cult rework

Post by Pandarsenic » #619942

I was hoping this was going to be simplifying their shit a little

I strongly believe the reason blood magic stuff sees minimal use is that it's a pain to actually do and use

Cult's biggest problems are "What the fuck does any of this do" + "How do I actually use it" + "What the hell is everyone else doing"
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Jonathan Gupta
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Re: Mild cult rework

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #619950

When I saw this thread I thought finally a simplification of cult!

A compliant of cult is it's to complicated for new players and such.

This will only complicate it and make people hate it more, if it's not a simplification for cult It's not a great idea(Most likely).
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datorangebottle
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Re: Mild cult rework

Post by datorangebottle » #620232

Alright. It seems there's quite a few disagreements as to what I see as a problem within the cult, and what everyone else does. But we all agree that it has problems!
So! Let's brainstorm a little and see if we can solve some things?

Pandarsenic summarizes the issues quite nicely, with an additional one that we can't really address.
Pandarsenic wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:00 am Cult's biggest problems are "What the fuck does any of this do" + "How do I actually use it" + "What the hell is everyone else doing"
Cult already has multiple ways of addressing this last issue, between the cult chat(that people should really be using more often) and spirit realm.
For the other two, however, there are a couple solutions.
Trim the fat
► Show Spoiler
TL;DR: remove stuff that is underused, works against the cult in some way, or makes no sense.
Improve in-game explanation
Currently, when you go to carve a rune or spell, it's all in one big list, and you don't get any sort of explanation until you've already made the thing. TGUI and tooltips would be nice. Yes, this includes for cult metal, because at my resolution the tip about what building makes what thing goes off the screen, and it doesn't explain what those things do. I think I saw someone on discord working on a PR for spells/runes in this regard, but I'm not sure who it was.
Another idea for this would be to improve the antagonist UI you get when you become a cultist. As an example, when you become a nightmare, all of your tools are neatly spelled out for you in the antag/flavor window. Currently, the cult one just says "You are a cultist!". Something similar could be done for Cult, explaining the bare minimum basics for new players. Something like:
► Show Spoiler
Any other suggestions?
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: Cult Rework Discussion

Post by Pandarsenic » #620270

Yeah, you can't solve people not paying attention to cult chat. It just can't be done. For others:
  • EMP is a little niche, but the only answer cultists really have to mechs outside of Rites?
  • Hallucinations do in fact suck. Same for cult girder.
  • Flagellant's Robes are fun and funny, but I've never seen them seriously used. They can probably stand to go away.
  • I pretty much never see Unholy Water used, and whetstones pretty much do what's mentioned. I wouldn't hate yeeting the Altar.
  • Void Torches suck and are a pain in the ass that get shit all over when you get the real item (the Veil Shifter) attached to it. I usually see them tossed in a "shit nobody wants" corner.
  • I'm iffy about removing Ghost Cultists because they are iconic and "recruit the dead because the living are too inept to summon" strikes me as a good thing to be able to do.
  • Apocalypse is awful and nobody will miss it. Summon Cultist is useless and I don't think I've ever(?) seen it used because the window where it'll actually matter and be usable is just so short. Unless you're, like, kidnapping people
  • Blood Rites could be perhaps folded into Runes or spells in some way? I only ever really see Blood Beam used, though, honestly.
  • I wouldn't be sad to see Empower as its own rune gone.
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datorangebottle
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Re: Cult Rework Discussion

Post by datorangebottle » #620307

Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:38 am
  • EMP is a little niche, but the only answer cultists really have to mechs outside of Rites?
Answer: Group up and stab the mech with your swords/halberds.
Alternate answer: maybe the cult should have some weaknesses. currently, you can run away from the mech, equip several EMPs, and rush it to EMP spam, which seems kind of cheesy and stupid.
Tertiary, final answer: you can make an EMP pretty easily by grinding up some iron and some uranium into separate beakers, then combining them when you need the EMP. Over half the station has easy access to this.
  • I'm iffy about removing Ghost Cultists because they are iconic and "recruit the dead because the living are too inept to summon" strikes me as a good thing to be able to do.
I have a personal grudge against ghost cultists because they're used in a strategy I hate, specifically the ghost cult variant where you make a base in space near the station instead of on the station just so you can spam cult ghosts with even less risk, somehow. It lets the cult win without any real teamwork, which is silly and shouldn't be a thing the cult is doing because it specifically is a team antagonist, even moreso than the others. No other antagonist has signposting like cult's, where you have to do certain things in groups and if you don't come together at the end you won't win, period. So why do we have a spell that makes it easy to solo-carry cult up to a point?
  • Summon Cultist is useless and I don't think I've ever(?) seen it used because the window where it'll actually matter and be usable is just so short. Unless you're, like, kidnapping people
If someone is kidnapping other cultists for dubious reasons, congratulations, they're griefing.
  • Blood Rites could be perhaps folded into Runes or spells in some way? I only ever really see Blood Beam used, though, honestly.
That'd make me sad- I really love the healing, halberd, and blood beam. barrage could go, though- it should be easier to fight the cult at range. As much as I hate to say it, that's also justification for getting rid of the halberd, which is a powerful single-use ranged stun and damage nuke if you throw it. That'd leave blood rites as a heal & kamehameha spell, which does greatly simplify it.
Alternatively, the blood beam could be moved to a rune and the rest of blood rites scrapped; it already has that sort of immobile spellcasting feeling to it. I'm unsure how it'd be priced, though. I imagine that instead of needing several invokers, each set of beams deals a shitton of brute to the caster, so they would need someone to heal them while they were casting(with more than just passive pylon regen if they want the full spell).
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: Cult Rework Discussion

Post by Pandarsenic » #620309

When I say "kidnapping" I mainly mean "Forcing people to come to the damn SUMMON NARNARS rune" not "randomly grab people out of the hallways for laughs". The thing is, it's nigh-impossible to actually coordinate a good use of Summon Cultist other than that, and for that purpose you already have the button to summon the entire cult.

The Halberd is cool but I definitely don't see it much. Barrage is cool but I also don't see it much and I'm not sure how I feel about it and EMP going, since it's the other "big DPS to slow mechs" source.

One thought: I wonder if adding spells that take up multiple slots to hold onto would be an interesting design space?

Two thought: How would people feel about some core spells being "just do the knife, easy, you got it" and some more dramatic ones requiring a rune to invoke? This would shorten each spell list by breaking them up and lock Bigger Stuff like Combat Equipment, Teleport-the-spell-not-the-rune, Twisted Construction, etc., behind actually making the rune and loading it up (though you could erase the rune after), but cultists with their knives could still gear up with their core skills (Stun Hands, Shackles, Conceal Presence, etc.) for conversion without needing a permanent Empower emplacement.
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Re: Cult Rework Discussion

Post by datorangebottle » #620313

Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:24 pm When I say "kidnapping" I mainly mean "Forcing people to come to the damn SUMMON NARNARS rune" not "randomly grab people out of the hallways for laughs".
Fair. I have actually been grabbed out of a maint tunnel for dubious reasons, though, and I have accidentally summoned someone who was calling for help who meant for people to come to them, not the other way around- which lost us our sac target!
The Halberd is cool but I definitely don't see it much. Barrage is cool but I also don't see it much and I'm not sure how I feel about it and EMP going, since it's the other "big DPS to slow mechs" source.
I have actually never seen barrage get used, and i'd like to repeat that cult should have some kind of direct weakness. Being weak to mechs encourages them to group up and fight as a team instead of running off to murderbone alone in maint, and gives a new facet of strategy to the summoning / cult bases beyond "lol maxcap them/stop the maxcap somehow".
One thought: I wonder if adding spells that take up multiple slots to hold onto would be an interesting design space?
Could be; that's part of what this thread is about. Freeing up complexity so that we can add more interesting mechanics than the ones that are currently languishing about going unused.
Two thought: How would people feel about some core spells being "just do the knife, easy, you got it" and some more dramatic ones requiring a rune to invoke? This would shorten each spell list by breaking them up and lock Bigger Stuff like Combat Equipment, Teleport-the-spell-not-the-rune, Twisted Construction, etc., behind actually making the rune and loading it up (though you could erase the rune after), but cultists with their knives could still gear up with their core skills (Stun Hands, Shackles, Conceal Presence, etc.) for conversion without needing a permanent Empower emplacement.
I feel like that defeats the purpose of my suggestion behind removing the empower rune, which is to remove the "oh if i want more spells i should make an empower rune" step, which just leads to experienced cultists not using the spells button ever and just using empower runes whenever they want spells. Dismantling a noob trap makes the antagonist easier to learn and removes a line from the runes list.
Actually, your suggestion makes the problem worse, because now I have to learn which spells are on my knife and which spells are on empower.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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