Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

A place to record your ideas for the game.
Post Reply
RikuTheKiller
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:17 pm
Byond Username: RikuTheKiller

Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by RikuTheKiller » #634967

The gas shell PR that was recently merged has done the following things:

Cause me to not see upgraded organs, t4 lasers and literally ANY other gas shell experiment locked research items EVER SINCE the merge. At all. The only time I've seen a t4 laser is on the syndicate bioweapon station, where 10 of them spawn inside the t4 RPED.

Nothing beneficial either. Like, it just makes the research needlessly hard and makes toxins into a bootleg atmos. (With atmos being so complex that basically no-one learns it except atmos techs, which, scientists aren't and never should be.)

Oh also, I know someone is going to tell me this: "You can just buy BZ cans from cargo!" Sure, I go out of my way to get a BZ can, but what am I going to do about like, the 4 other gas shell experiments that need completely BS gases that are COMPLETELY unrelated to the research they're required for? Here, let me explain. So, dissections can be done by medical, are medical-themed AND also give benefits TO medical since it's only needed for MEDICAL-BASED research. If the gas shell experiments were on research that was atmos-based (Which isn't a thing right now, but still.) It'd be completely fine since it actually makes some fucking sense. (And if the compressor was in atmos, ofcourse.) Also, this PR added a needless step called "publishing papers" to it. Some researches have it, some don't and also it's literally a few extra clicks with NO documentation on how to do it. Even I don't fucking know how to publish papers, making the issue even worse. Sure, I could ask, but even then, it's just dumb in general.

I've seen lots of people in deadchat complain about it and the only things I've heard about it when asking in OOC is purely negative. Even when asking who likes it, the entire chat just goes dead silent. No-one enjoys science just being needlessly nerfed and a bunch of good research items being essentially deleted from the game. Sure, you can do it, but like, during 99% of rounds it won't happen.

We COULD add more departmental researches, such as cargo needing some kind of shuttle safety test experiments or such with new engines or even an engine customization system.

Seriously, be more creative rather than just slapping 5 very similar and completely unbalanced + unrelated experiments on research that really doesn't need it. All other t4 parts for example are available without experiments... except lasers, for some fucking reason.
User avatar
Mothblocks
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Mothblocks » #635044

We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
RikuTheKiller
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:17 pm
Byond Username: RikuTheKiller

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by RikuTheKiller » #635117

Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
Jesus fucking christ I'm starting to see why everyone hates you now, Mothblocks. (Apart from the other admins, who don't recognize how shit your changes really are, such as removing nanites rather than fixing them and probably a lot more I don't even know about.)

Also, your whole "Work to make the system better instead." thing is what CAUSED this fucking issue. It was added by none other than, one of the others who was "working to make the system better", so yeah. Changes != Good Changes, but also Changes != Bad Changes, fucking evaluate it rather than just go "Oh it was recent so we uh, don't reverse those even if people like, hate them. Why? I don't fucking know, cause I said so."
Last edited by RikuTheKiller on Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WrillWasTaken
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm
Byond Username: Wrill

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by WrillWasTaken » #635120

Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
Is there any actual gameplay reason to not do a revert? Because otherwise this seems like a shitty reason for it to be closed.
User avatar
Rohen_Tahir
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
Byond Username: Rohen Tahir
Location: Primary fool storage
Contact:

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Rohen_Tahir » #635122

RikuTheKiller wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
j-jesus fwickking chwist i'm stawting to see w-why evewyone hates you now-.- m-mothbwocks ( ˘⌣˘)♡(˘⌣˘ ) (apawt f-fwom the other admins, who don't wecognize how poopoo youw changes weawwy are uguu.., s-such as wemoving nanites wather than fixing them a-and pwobabwy a w-wot more i don't even k-know about.)
lol
Image
User avatar
Bawhoppennn
Github User
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:42 pm
Byond Username: Bawhoppennn
Github Username: Bawhoppen

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Bawhoppennn » #635129

Rohen_Tahir wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:35 pm
RikuTheKiller wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
j-jesus fwickking chwist i'm stawting to see w-why evewyone hates you now-.- m-mothbwocks ( ˘⌣˘)♡(˘⌣˘ ) (apawt f-fwom the other admins, who don't wecognize how poopoo youw changes weawwy are uguu.., s-such as wemoving nanites wather than fixing them a-and pwobabwy a w-wot more i don't even k-know about.)
lol
Such a clever and brave way to insult someone, good job Rohen_Tehir

(I'd do it for myself too preemptively, but I'll give you the chance for the effort)


As for this thread: science should be removed wholesale
it's been nothing but a source of powergame for 10 years
I consider myself a /tg/station historian. If you're interested in the server history at all, feel free to ask me and I'll try and get you an answer! #ConcurForever

Image
<KorMobile> you're a hero

[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
Image
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."

[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.

(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"

OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget

Image

<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
ausops wrote:apart from this there is literally nothing more to say other than that this is the first thread in five years to have achieved something.
User avatar
Nabski
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:42 pm
Byond Username: Nabski
Github Username: Nabski89
Location: TN

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Nabski » #635130

Bawhoppennn wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:58 pm
Rohen_Tahir wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:35 pm
RikuTheKiller wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
j-jesus fwickking chwist i'm stawting to see w-why evewyone hates you now-.- m-mothbwocks ( ˘⌣˘)♡(˘⌣˘ ) (apawt f-fwom the other admins, who don't wecognize how poopoo youw changes weawwy are uguu.., s-such as wemoving nanites wather than fixing them a-and pwobabwy a w-wot more i don't even k-know about.)
lol
Such a clever and brave way to insult someone, good job Rohen_Tehir

(I'd do it for myself too preemptively, but I'll give you the chance for the effort)


As for this thread: science should be removed wholesale
it's been nothing but a source of powergame for 10 years
We need to remove engineering while we are at it too, not having power or air makes rounds no fun and just because someone fucked up their job shouldn't impact me.
User avatar
Bawhoppennn
Github User
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:42 pm
Byond Username: Bawhoppennn
Github Username: Bawhoppen

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Bawhoppennn » #635131

Nabski wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:01 pm
Bawhoppennn wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:58 pm
Rohen_Tahir wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:35 pm
RikuTheKiller wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
j-jesus fwickking chwist i'm stawting to see w-why evewyone hates you now-.- m-mothbwocks ( ˘⌣˘)♡(˘⌣˘ ) (apawt f-fwom the other admins, who don't wecognize how poopoo youw changes weawwy are uguu.., s-such as wemoving nanites wather than fixing them a-and pwobabwy a w-wot more i don't even k-know about.)
lol
Such a clever and brave way to insult someone, good job Rohen_Tehir

(I'd do it for myself too preemptively, but I'll give you the chance for the effort)


As for this thread: science should be removed wholesale
it's been nothing but a source of powergame for 10 years
We need to remove engineering while we are at it too, not having power or air makes rounds no fun and just because someone fucked up their job shouldn't impact me.
if we remove atmos we'll never get to play that Steam-Powered Giraffe song anymore though... it would be a big loss for everyone
I consider myself a /tg/station historian. If you're interested in the server history at all, feel free to ask me and I'll try and get you an answer! #ConcurForever

Image
<KorMobile> you're a hero

[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
Image
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."

[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.

(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"

OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget

Image

<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
ausops wrote:apart from this there is literally nothing more to say other than that this is the first thread in five years to have achieved something.
User avatar
massa
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:20 am
Byond Username: Massa100

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by massa » #635133

Bawhoppennn wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:58 pm As for this thread: science should be removed wholesale
it's been nothing but a source of powergame for 10 years
remove:
science
genetics
virology
medbay
assistants
engineering (and atmos) (they're just delux assistants)
captain
security

all of these are powergamer roles and grief jobs and not RP friendly. the only people playing should be roboticists building borgs and people consenting to being borged so the borgs and the people can go to the bar and roleplay.
:donut2: :honkman: :heart: :honkman: :heart: :honkman: :donut2:
User avatar
Bawhoppennn
Github User
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:42 pm
Byond Username: Bawhoppennn
Github Username: Bawhoppen

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Bawhoppennn » #635134

I was joking, I didn't think my post would seem serious
I consider myself a /tg/station historian. If you're interested in the server history at all, feel free to ask me and I'll try and get you an answer! #ConcurForever

Image
<KorMobile> you're a hero

[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
Image
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."

[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.

(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"

OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget

Image

<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
ausops wrote:apart from this there is literally nothing more to say other than that this is the first thread in five years to have achieved something.
RikuTheKiller
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:17 pm
Byond Username: RikuTheKiller

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by RikuTheKiller » #635137

Rohen_Tahir wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:35 pm
RikuTheKiller wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
j-jesus fwickking chwist i'm stawting to see w-why evewyone hates you now-.- m-mothbwocks ( ˘⌣˘)♡(˘⌣˘ ) (apawt f-fwom the other admins, who don't wecognize how poopoo youw changes weawwy are uguu.., s-such as wemoving nanites wather than fixing them a-and pwobabwy a w-wot more i don't even k-know about.)
lol
The funny part about this is the fact I'm a furry and the fact I must commend you for the effort, but must also hate you at the same time.
User avatar
massa
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:20 am
Byond Username: Massa100

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by massa » #635144

Bawhoppennn wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:20 pm I was joking, I didn't think my post would seem serious
yes yours read quite like a joke unfortunately mine lacked clarity in its sarcasm element
:donut2: :honkman: :heart: :honkman: :heart: :honkman: :donut2:
User avatar
Itseasytosee2me
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
Byond Username: Rectification
Location: Space Station 13

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #635149

RikuTheKiller wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:43 pm
Rohen_Tahir wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:35 pm
RikuTheKiller wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
j-jesus fwickking chwist i'm stawting to see w-why evewyone hates you now-.- m-mothbwocks ( ˘⌣˘)♡(˘⌣˘ ) (apawt f-fwom the other admins, who don't wecognize how poopoo youw changes weawwy are uguu.., s-such as wemoving nanites wather than fixing them a-and pwobabwy a w-wot more i don't even k-know about.)
lol
The funny part about this is the fact I'm a furry and the fact I must commend you for the effort, but must also hate you at the same time.
:|
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
User avatar
Mothblocks
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Mothblocks » #635165

RikuTheKiller wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
Jesus fucking christ I'm starting to see why everyone hates you now, Mothblocks. (Apart from the other admins, who don't recognize how shit your changes really are, such as removing nanites rather than fixing them and probably a lot more I don't even know about.)
😂 True!
Also, your whole "Work to make the system better instead." thing is what CAUSED this fucking issue. It was added by none other than, one of the others who was "working to make the system better", so yeah. Changes != Good Changes, but also Changes != Bad Changes, fucking evaluate it rather than just go "Oh it was recent so we uh, don't reverse those even if people like, hate them. Why? I don't fucking know, cause I said so."
Because constant iteration is the life blood of SS13, and video games as a whole. Every single feature you like about this game likely went through a substantive amount of changes. The feature went through an extensive review process, with a maintainer approving a completed design doc, and we know exactly where we can take the feature in the future to make it better. People yell about everything that gets sneezed at in this game.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
User avatar
Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Pandarsenic » #635198

If there's one constant in SS13 it's that R&D sucks shit
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
User avatar
JusticeGoat
In-Game Admin
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 8:36 am
Byond Username: JusticeGoat

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by JusticeGoat » #635276

It would make more sense to entice atmos to make this gas by locking some power tools behind it rather than lasers. :)
Yulice
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 5:18 am
Byond Username: Yulice

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Yulice » #635302

I will die before I learn atmos.
vincentius_vin
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:24 pm
Byond Username: Vincentius_vin

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by vincentius_vin » #635308

Disagree:
  • BZ is available in xenobio, steal that instead of going to cargo. Repack it into a canister after you're done if you're feeling nice so xenobio can use it again. This is meant as an extremely easy tutorial experiment doable in ~5-10 minutes. The fact that you're complaining that it's hard shows how much time you have spent trying to learn toxins after the pr got merged.
    Guides are a bit sparse but the compressor is explicitly made to be very forgiving. None of your gas is consumed. I want you to play around with it, fuck around and find out. See if you can notice any patterns, what makes a tank explodes and when, and then move on to bombs.
    But if you need things spelt out for you you can read more here: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_t ... Gas_Shells (not written by me, thanks inari)
  • All the experiments should be possible to do without additional gas from atmos. I want scientists to do it, not atmos techs. I locked T4 because it's pretty nice for toxins and atmos to have but not crucial, all reactions in the game are doable without it. Enticing engineering to do the experiments by locking a beloved node isn't relevant, though it is very funny. People are already mad lasers and organs got locked so no need to guess what will happen if I locked powertools. Someone with more balls are welcome to do this though :twisted:
    Edit: Probably should've worded the first sentence better. By all the experiments i meant any singular experiment. You can do any of them in a round. Probably not all in the same round but that's intended AND some atmos main with too much free time will prove me wrong.
  • The publishing system is there for more discounts, which is an attempt to make toxins slightly more relevant like how it was pre-experisci, not to the same busted levels of course since it's against what maintainers want. I can see why you think that this layer of abstraction isn't necessary, judging by your registration time you probably aren't here before experisci.
Agree:
  • I agree that the nitrium one is a bit silly, since doctors have no influence on toxins and nitrium is not trivial to make. I have opened a PR to remove it.
  • Atmos being hard is a reasonable complaint, but we already have and are still adding things to make it easier to learn. Wiki for one, got updated. A reaction guide was PR-ed the instant scipapers got merged. Fusion was made less esoteric with the HFR. Which then was made even less esoteric by tooltips and a wiki guide that goes extremely in-depth. Busted bomb mixes got passed around and action was taken against them. Dismissing a whole subdepartment with many active coders and strides being made every month just for being complex is disingenous. A number of these changes actually drove some of the old atmos folks away. Go figure.

Gave more reasoning on some of them in case you have time and want to read them here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/65707 and https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... 1065884764
Opinions above are my own, goes without saying that if you disagree, managed to code it yourself/lobby a coder, and then convinced a maintainer, you can have things your way.

I also don't like posting in forums that much, you can reach me easier on discord in the main server. FIgured I'd throw this out here so my intentions are clear since this thread got a lot of replies and most of the complaints show how little folks know about atmos/toxins. Happy to answer as long as you arent being a jerk.


Also there's a joke to be made here about OP saying mothblocks being hated while they won both player and admin vote. Lmao :honkman: .
User avatar
Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Pandarsenic » #635353

I don't hate this in principle but every day the dream of the game being playable without the wiki grows more distant
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
vincentius_vin
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:24 pm
Byond Username: Vincentius_vin

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by vincentius_vin » #635362

That isnt necessarily the case, people are adding a lot of IC guides in. HFR got a shitload of tooltips. Context menu is a thing now. Traitors got a tgui tutorial screen. And soon if the pr goes through we'll have an ic reaction reference for atmos. Also another pr open to change wayfind pointers to a much better system. There is a compelling argument to be made that the opposite is true.
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by oranges » #635378

RikuTheKiller wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
Jesus fucking christ I'm starting to see why everyone hates you now, Mothblocks. (Apart from the other admins, who don't recognize how shit your changes really are, such as removing nanites rather than fixing them and probably a lot more I don't even know about.)

Also, your whole "Work to make the system better instead." thing is what CAUSED this fucking issue. It was added by none other than, one of the others who was "working to make the system better", so yeah. Changes != Good Changes, but also Changes != Bad Changes, fucking evaluate it rather than just go "Oh it was recent so we uh, don't reverse those even if people like, hate them. Why? I don't fucking know, cause I said so."
Finally i've escaped.
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Cobby » #635383

The upgrade organs should not be gated behind an experiment medical has zero expectation to do.

To my knowledge not even a medicinal use for BZ to justify otherwise buying the canister. The experiment's onus should be on the department that benefits most from the research, and making BZ is not really in the realm of medicals capability.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
TheFinalPotato
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:58 am
Byond Username: LemonInTheDark

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by TheFinalPotato » #635398

WrillWasTaken wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:31 pm Is there any actual gameplay reason to not do a revert? Because otherwise this seems like a shitty reason for it to be closed.
Large changes will often be overused/poorly understood/overly disliked after a pr is merged, for weeks or months after.
It's not good to step back something you believe in just because it cheesed some people off for a bit.
That's why we didn't immediately make some of the requirements introduced easier, because we were unsure if they were feasible or not, and wanted to see how the playerbase would react.
I trust vin to not be too much of a hardass on this.
RikuTheKiller wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm Jesus fucking christ I'm starting to see why everyone hates you now, Mothblocks. (Apart from the other admins, who don't recognize how shit your changes really are, such as removing nanites rather than fixing them and probably a lot more I don't even know about.)
Bro I merged that pr come on is the head designer mind control really that powerful.
vincentius_vin wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:50 pm Atmos being hard is a reasonable complaint, but we already have and are still adding things to make it easier to learn. Wiki for one, got updated. A reaction guide was PR-ed the instant scipapers got mer...
Just wanted to highlight something here. Atmos has been historically very hard to penetrate, primarily because there was no reason to do it that deeply.

So the only people who got really into it were the ones who had someone to teach them, or had the time to spend digging through what amounted to the code at that point, learning.
-- Insert diatribe about atmos metagangs and the bugs in unmaintained code they found and then told almost none about here --

Anyway, even if we tried to make atmos more accessible, there would be no way to know if it was doing anything unless we made it in some fashion mandatory.
In general, if you make a system and then don't make interacting with it at least somewhat required, it will remain both deep and hellish to interact with.
It's better to force people to understand it, and then make it more understandable if that becomes problematic then to just make it not matter at all.

I'm perfectly happy to go through growing pains here, having a reason to learn is motivation for making things more learnable, and I think that's a good path forward for atmos in general.

Don't care about organs.
My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperials. Can you say the same?
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Rohen_Tahir
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
Byond Username: Rohen Tahir
Location: Primary fool storage
Contact:

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Rohen_Tahir » #635453

vincentius_vin wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:50 pm [Also there's a joke to be made here about OP saying mothblocks being hated while they won both player and admin vote. Lmao :honkman: .
STOWP THE STREAW (♡ω♡ ) ~♪
Image
User avatar
mindstormy
In-Game Admin
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:59 pm
Byond Username: Mindstormy

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by mindstormy » #635471

It would be neat if you could get the wiki updated fairly quickly behind big changes like this. It sucks being an admin and people ask how do I do this new research paper thing and I have to say "I got no fucking clue"
RikuTheKiller
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:17 pm
Byond Username: RikuTheKiller

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by RikuTheKiller » #635601

vincentius_vin wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:50 pm Disagree:
  • BZ is available in xenobio, steal that instead of going to cargo. Repack it into a canister after you're done if you're feeling nice so xenobio can use it again. This is meant as an extremely easy tutorial experiment doable in ~5-10 minutes. The fact that you're complaining that it's hard shows how much time you have spent trying to learn toxins after the pr got merged.
    Guides are a bit sparse but the compressor is explicitly made to be very forgiving. None of your gas is consumed. I want you to play around with it, fuck around and find out. See if you can notice any patterns, what makes a tank explodes and when, and then move on to bombs.
    But if you need things spelt out for you you can read more here: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_t ... Gas_Shells (not written by me, thanks inari)
  • All the experiments should be possible to do without additional gas from atmos. I want scientists to do it, not atmos techs. I locked T4 because it's pretty nice for toxins and atmos to have but not crucial, all reactions in the game are doable without it. Enticing engineering to do the experiments by locking a beloved node isn't relevant, though it is very funny. People are already mad lasers and organs got locked so no need to guess what will happen if I locked powertools. Someone with more balls are welcome to do this though :twisted:
    Edit: Probably should've worded the first sentence better. By all the experiments i meant any singular experiment. You can do any of them in a round. Probably not all in the same round but that's intended AND some atmos main with too much free time will prove me wrong.
  • The publishing system is there for more discounts, which is an attempt to make toxins slightly more relevant like how it was pre-experisci, not to the same busted levels of course since it's against what maintainers want. I can see why you think that this layer of abstraction isn't necessary, judging by your registration time you probably aren't here before experisci.
Agree:
  • I agree that the nitrium one is a bit silly, since doctors have no influence on toxins and nitrium is not trivial to make. I have opened a PR to remove it.
  • Atmos being hard is a reasonable complaint, but we already have and are still adding things to make it easier to learn. Wiki for one, got updated. A reaction guide was PR-ed the instant scipapers got merged. Fusion was made less esoteric with the HFR. Which then was made even less esoteric by tooltips and a wiki guide that goes extremely in-depth. Busted bomb mixes got passed around and action was taken against them. Dismissing a whole subdepartment with many active coders and strides being made every month just for being complex is disingenous. A number of these changes actually drove some of the old atmos folks away. Go figure.

Gave more reasoning on some of them in case you have time and want to read them here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/65707 and https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... 1065884764
Opinions above are my own, goes without saying that if you disagree, managed to code it yourself/lobby a coder, and then convinced a maintainer, you can have things your way.

I also don't like posting in forums that much, you can reach me easier on discord in the main server. FIgured I'd throw this out here so my intentions are clear since this thread got a lot of replies and most of the complaints show how little folks know about atmos/toxins. Happy to answer as long as you arent being a jerk.


Also there's a joke to be made here about OP saying mothblocks being hated while they won both player and admin vote. Lmao :honkman: .
You actually raised a lot of good points. Good job. I agree with most of those.

Anyways, yes, I overreacted on what Mothblocks said, although, seriously, just telling me to fuck off and go make the game better was NOT a great way to respond even if I clearly overreacted. Just a little more detail would've at least been nice.

Also the whole thing about "everyone" hating Mothblocks was based on responses in OOC on Sybil being pretty much 100% negative about the changes Mothblocks did. (The only reason I even know that Mothblocks removed nanites is due to the OOC on Sybil.)

About the "locking t4 lasers" part, though, I still don't enjoy it too much due to the fact that lasers are used for a LOT more than just freezers in atmos. (Reaction chambers in chemistry, freezers in medical and science, laser pointers for both the RD and miners, etc.)

Freezers could have a different component specifically dedicated to atmos experiments, such as a more advanced temperature laser that needs to be hand-crafted using a researched part. (Such as a special lens, but adding it doesn't change the tier of the laser, it just changes it's type.)

While this still leaves the other freezers unable to be upgraded for a while, it gives far more incentive for atmos to do it, making it a similar priority to something like a dissection for medical as it is essential to their job.

Adding a secondary compressor to atmos could also help a little, though having to deliver it could be considered a feature, but also just seems like it gives less incentive to bother doing it.
User avatar
Mothblocks
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:33 am
Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Mothblocks » #635608

i don't think you know a tenth of the changes I've made other than nanites :P
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!

Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
cacogen
Forum Soft Banned
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
Byond Username: Cacogen

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by cacogen » #635609

mindstormy wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:57 pm It would be neat if you could get the wiki updated fairly quickly behind big changes like this. It sucks being an admin and people ask how do I do this new research paper thing and I have to say "I got no fucking clue"
you should have to show a draft of the wiki updates before the pr can be merged tbh
User avatar
mindstormy
In-Game Admin
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:59 pm
Byond Username: Mindstormy

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by mindstormy » #635617

cacogen wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:28 pm
mindstormy wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:57 pm It would be neat if you could get the wiki updated fairly quickly behind big changes like this. It sucks being an admin and people ask how do I do this new research paper thing and I have to say "I got no fucking clue"
you should have to show a draft of the wiki updates before the pr can be merged tbh
This is something I would LOVE to see.

The wiki for research is 2+ years out of date. It is kind of sad to be honest.
WrillWasTaken
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 pm
Byond Username: Wrill

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by WrillWasTaken » #635755

RikuTheKiller wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:45 pm Also the whole thing about "everyone" hating Mothblocks was based on responses in OOC on Sybil being pretty much 100% negative about the changes Mothblocks did. (The only reason I even know that Mothblocks removed nanites is due to the OOC on Sybil.)
This is correct, whenever I mention mothblocks in deadchat on sybil I hear a bunch of "FUCK MOTHBLOCKS!!!" and absolutely no positivity towards them.
User avatar
Tearling
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:40 pm
Byond Username: Tearling

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Tearling » #635815

Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
Gas Shells are a fundamentally unhealthy and flawed concept.

Getting gas research is a matter of begging cargo for BZ, and, in the case of a competent atmos tech turned scientist, basically never having to think about it again. In exchange for learning a new nearly useless mechanic, you've now been given a new nearly useless requirement for science, excuses to stock up on gamer gasses, and whatever else they decided to cook up.
Mothblocks wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:25 pm i don't think you know a tenth of the changes I've made other than nanites :P
I'm here to prove you right.
vincentius_vin wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:50 pm BZ is available in xenobio, steal that instead of going to cargo.
Any competent Xenobiologist will have released the BZ in the main holding pen before you could even decide on which labcoat would look better on your character.
Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
User avatar
Bawhoppennn
Github User
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:42 pm
Byond Username: Bawhoppennn
Github Username: Bawhoppen

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Bawhoppennn » #635816

cacogen wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:28 pm
mindstormy wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:57 pm It would be neat if you could get the wiki updated fairly quickly behind big changes like this. It sucks being an admin and people ask how do I do this new research paper thing and I have to say "I got no fucking clue"
you should have to show a draft of the wiki updates before the pr can be merged tbh
I said this years ago and the every senior maintainer made fun of me for it :cry:
I consider myself a /tg/station historian. If you're interested in the server history at all, feel free to ask me and I'll try and get you an answer! #ConcurForever

Image
<KorMobile> you're a hero

[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
Image
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."

[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.

(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"

OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget

Image

<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
ausops wrote:apart from this there is literally nothing more to say other than that this is the first thread in five years to have achieved something.
RikuTheKiller
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:17 pm
Byond Username: RikuTheKiller

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by RikuTheKiller » #636311

Tearling wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:27 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:07 pm We don't do knee-jerk reverts so this is guaranteed to get closed. Work on helping make the system better instead.
Gas Shells are a fundamentally unhealthy and flawed concept.

Getting gas research is a matter of begging cargo for BZ, and, in the case of a competent atmos tech turned scientist, basically never having to think about it again. In exchange for learning a new nearly useless mechanic, you've now been given a new nearly useless requirement for science, excuses to stock up on gamer gasses, and whatever else they decided to cook up.
Mothblocks wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:25 pm i don't think you know a tenth of the changes I've made other than nanites :P
I'm here to prove you right.
vincentius_vin wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:50 pm BZ is available in xenobio, steal that instead of going to cargo.
Any competent Xenobiologist will have released the BZ in the main holding pen before you could even decide on which labcoat would look better on your character.
Hehe, I tried making hyper-nob as an atmos tech for science, took 1 and a half hours just to produce some mols, now imagine having to do that every fucking round. With less equipment. In toxins. Mmm...

I'm beginning to agree with this guy more and more. It's fundamentally flawed. If you straight up replaced it with different experiments I would like that quite a lot more. How about an experiment that, rather than having you produce a specific gas that takes 30 minutes, instead has you make very, very hot gas? And then safely transport that gas to the ordance tank compressor and pump it into a can until it explodes, but with a catch. It has a time limit. Upgrading the compressor may make it pump gas faster, but the hotter the gas is, the easier it is to fill the can fast enough. Using a gas with less heat capacity also allows you to heat it up easier, so plasma is a no-go. Reverse freezers cooling plasma using nitrogen is probably your best bet. Then you learn about upgrading cans to actually transport it safely, and then upgrade the tank compressor. The tank compressor itself could also have some more characteristics specific to science rather than atmos.
User avatar
datorangebottle
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
Byond Username: Datorangebottle

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by datorangebottle » #636346

Tearling wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:27 pm Any competent Xenobiologist will have released the BZ in the main holding pen before you could even decide on which labcoat would look better on your character.
competent xenobiologist here, I have never used the BZ.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
User avatar
Tearling
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:40 pm
Byond Username: Tearling

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Tearling » #636356

datorangebottle wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:41 pm
Tearling wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:27 pm Any competent Xenobiologist will have released the BZ in the main holding pen before you could even decide on which labcoat would look better on your character.
competent xenobiologist here, I have never used the BZ.
Then you're probably one of those messy motherfuckers that doesn't even recycle the blood monkey after you're done filling 2 beakers of blood with it.
I just realized that out of context this sounds very psychotic.
Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
User avatar
datorangebottle
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
Byond Username: Datorangebottle

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by datorangebottle » #636358

Tearling wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:32 pm
datorangebottle wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:41 pm
Tearling wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:27 pm Any competent Xenobiologist will have released the BZ in the main holding pen before you could even decide on which labcoat would look better on your character.
competent xenobiologist here, I have never used the BZ.
Then you're probably one of those messy motherfuckers that doesn't even recycle the blood monkey after you're done filling 2 beakers of blood with it.
I just realized that out of context this sounds very psychotic.
Naw, I always keep my workplace very clean. Besides, that's a waste of good monkey right there.
I just don't see the point of using the BZ. Xenobio runs perfectly fine without it.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
User avatar
Tearling
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:40 pm
Byond Username: Tearling

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Tearling » #636370

datorangebottle wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:37 pm
Tearling wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:32 pm
datorangebottle wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:41 pm
Tearling wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:27 pm Any competent Xenobiologist will have released the BZ in the main holding pen before you could even decide on which labcoat would look better on your character.
competent xenobiologist here, I have never used the BZ.
Then you're probably one of those messy motherfuckers that doesn't even recycle the blood monkey after you're done filling 2 beakers of blood with it.
I just realized that out of context this sounds very psychotic.
Naw, I always keep my workplace very clean. Besides, that's a waste of good monkey right there.
I just don't see the point of using the BZ. Xenobio runs perfectly fine without it.
It works perfectly fine if you constantly feed the slimes. The moment you leave them for a prolonged period of time they start breaking shit. BZ helps prevent that, AND causes the slimes to not move around making it easier to sort and store them in the holding pen. There's a reason BZ spawns in Xenobio in the first place.
Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
User avatar
datorangebottle
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
Byond Username: Datorangebottle

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by datorangebottle » #636372

Tearling wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:11 pm It works perfectly fine if you constantly feed the slimes. The moment you leave them for a prolonged period of time they start breaking shit. BZ helps prevent that, AND causes the slimes to not move around making it easier to sort and store them in the holding pen. There's a reason BZ spawns in Xenobio in the first place.
I have literally never had them start breaking things. Though, maybe that's because I don't leave adults sitting around or something.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
User avatar
Indie-ana Jones
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:15 pm
Byond Username: Indie-ana Jones

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by Indie-ana Jones » #636377

Xenobiologist of yore here, you use BZ to store copies of slimes in stasis so you don't need to feed them. Means that when you're ready to mass replicate them you'll only need 2 monkeys as opposed to maybe 3 if you hadnt fed them in a while. BZ was more important when slimes were more aggressive (they're pansies compared to how they used to be) and the department was more hands on.
RikuTheKiller
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:17 pm
Byond Username: RikuTheKiller

Re: Reverse the Science Gas Shell PR

Post by RikuTheKiller » #637402

Hold up, implants need NITRIUM? A gas practically no-one has made since me joining /tg/? Mm, yes, just for some implants we now need usually fusion-made gases. Fun.

No wonder I haven't seen them.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]