Antagonist idea - the Jester

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Imitates-The-Lizards
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Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #637227

So, I was thinking, what are the biggest issues with the Sybil playerbase? There are 4:

-Validhunting
-Metagrudging
-Not minding their own god damn business
-Murderboning

So, I then thought okay, how can we fix these issues? Then I remembered left 4 dead 1. In the developer commentary (which I'm probably the only person to have gone through) they mentioned that the boomer was created when, during playtesting, they realized that the meta for players was to just shoot literally everything that moved. If you tried to do this and accidentally shot a boomer though, it would result in a swarm, so the boomer acts as a check on these activities. So then I thought, is there a way we can cause a similar effect in ss13?

And then I thought of Town of Salems jester class. Behold, our new thief-level antagonist, the Jester.

Main ideas:
The Jester starts with permanent pacifism (and a message like thief gets not to murder people, to prevent them from doing things like plasmaflooding)
The Jester starts with a full chameleon kit
If the Jester dies, (but not by suicide) whoever did the last hostile action becomes haunted by the Jester (if the last person was the Jester themself, they simply die). My idea for this is, the Jester haunts the person for 15 minutes. The person who is haunted must perform x difficult but possible task during this time (drink Anacea, breathe in x amount of pluoxium, etc.). During these 15 minutes, the haunting Jester can perform several actions, such as igniting their target, silencing them for 30 seconds, making them drop whatever is in their hand, knocking out power in whatever room they are in, making them slip and fall, etc. If the person who is haunted does not complete their difficult but possible task in time (or if they die by any other means), they are dusted, and the Jester respawns in their original spawn location and with their original spawn loadout, with a green text at the end of the shift.

Pros: punishes all 4 of Sybils biggest playerbase defects
Very rp-focused antagonist
Encourages learning difficult tasks like manufacturing anacea
Encourages players to detain and jail suspected antagonists instead of just beheading them in the hallway
Adds to the slim set of low level antagonists like thief
It will be really god damn hilarious when a nukie leader kills a Jester. Or a ling. Or any other antagonist, actually.

Cons: It will piss people off when they shove a Jester in the hall and then the Jester spaces themselves in order to haunt them
It will piss people off when the Jester breaks machines pre-emptively in order to block tasks for their targets.

The Jester is countered by simply detaining them and throwing them in a cell to rot. This is pretty boring, but it does leave possibility for them to come back later.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #637230

For a bit of further context, the reason I recommend allowing the Jester to respawn is to counter people simply suiciding or ssding when they realize they're haunted - because this is way better than the alternative which is banning people for meta gaming if they do that, or just wasting the Jesters fun jester round entirely when they kill an ssd person who fucked off to play elden ring or something rather than make anacea.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Pandarsenic » #637232

It needs RP/fluff basis and a good selection of objectives, but I don't hate the idea itself.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #637233

Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:07 pm It needs RP/fluff basis and a good selection of objectives, but I don't hate the idea itself.
Some other cool objectives I've thought of could be:

Slay the Hierophant (have a check if the Hierophant has been engaged by a player during the shift first)
Craft (and eat?) a difficult food item - such as the powercrepe or the sweet chili cabbage wrap
Obtain 10000 credits in your personal account
Kill x player - "no, hos, I swear, I need to kill you because jester"
Create a stash of x number of x items (having to compete with thieves for insuls would be funny)

Trying to complete these under the 15 minute time limit while a jester is slipping you would be hilarious. I can imagine the head of security or nukie leader dragging their team to lavaland in a rush to kill the Hierophant. Would make for good gameplay and rp moments.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Pandarsenic » #637234

I think it'd be cooler to mostly lean into Weird Lower-Impact shit. No megafauna, no kills, just weird shit from other antags like Secure 5 pairs of insuls, obtain a bunch of money, eat something hard to get at but reasonable like the SUPER BITE BURGER, or make a bunch of McRibs, slime cakes, etc.

It could be interesting if the Jester gets a selection of objectives and they have to choose which to assign and which to drop? Maybe if you wanna get real weird, have the objective roll be affected by how the Jester died.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #637246

I'm interested on what the fluff would be, wizard clown?
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Pandarsenic » #637250

Someone being under a wizard's curse could be pretty entertaining.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #637262

I think the 2 best possibilities for fluff would be either to fit them into existing clown planet canon as a wizard clown or spirit, or to make them simply the syndicate equivalent of the clown (maybe add a jester spawn to the syndicate lavaland base too, that just does the clowns job, but for the syndicate?).
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Shadowflame909 » #637361

Would be a great holoparasite
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by nianjiilical » #637411

the idea of a curse that transfers to whoever kills you and becomes progressively worse is pretty interesting on its own, the challenge is just making an antag around it thats fun to play
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Pandarsenic » #637439

nianjiilical wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:08 pm the idea of a curse that transfers to whoever kills you and becomes progressively worse is pretty interesting on its own, the challenge is just making an antag around it thats fun to play
Consider: the curse has some number of possible effects on buttons, kind of like the Sentient Virus

And each person who dies with it passes it on and chooses their own effect, getting their own button for making life more and more unpleasant for the new host, who has to put up with every dead predecessor fucking with them on a different timer.

Curse chat coordinates trying to make the person's life miserable enough that they choose a new host to pass it onto? And idk what you do if the first person you get is rolebanned from it.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #637486

nianjiilical wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:08 pm the idea of a curse that transfers to whoever kills you and becomes progressively worse is pretty interesting on its own, the challenge is just making an antag around it thats fun to play
Well, that's what the Jester does - he's basically a dedicated shitposter job. He can't hurt anyone, but he can run around with his chameleon kit, pretend to be other people and get other people to attack him. Imagine, if you will, that someone reeeeees on comms "Bartender bad! He Heretic, he tried to kill me!". Then, the Jester sees this, and disguises himself as the Bartender using his chameleon kit, and runs down the halls. Validhunters (or shitcurity) kill him because bartender valid, kill he, and then they get fucked when it turns out to be Jester. This introduces more chaos into the shift because the Jester acted as a distraction for the Bartender, and the validhunters now have 15 minutes to go get 10000 credits from god knows where. The Jester is having fun because now they get to fuck with the guy who killed them, the Bartender is having fun because he gets to do more Heretic stuff and the main people trying to kill him are now busy trying to raid the Vault, and the crew is having fun because there's a lot of antagonism to deal with, all while the practice of validhunting got checked by the Jester. Win-win-win-win.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Screemonster » #638296

It'd need something to not screw over antags, like being excluded from assassinations. I wouldn't make antags immune to the curse though as it'd be funny for a murderboner to go on a desword rampage and get a curse for his troubles.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #638310

Screemonster wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:39 pm It'd need something to not screw over antags, like being excluded from assassinations. I wouldn't make antags immune to the curse though as it'd be funny for a murderboner to go on a desword rampage and get a curse for his troubles.
Why should other antags be immune? Antagonists aren't on the same team, usually, in fact, it's often beneficial for antags to kill each other, like lings get bonus evolution points for eating other lings, or you can kill another traitor and steal the TC from their uplink if they leave it open.

Actually, cursing someone who did an assassinate mission on you sounds like sweet and beautiful justice to me.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Screemonster » #638332

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:39 pm
Screemonster wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:39 pm It'd need something to not screw over antags, like being excluded from assassinations. I wouldn't make antags immune to the curse though as it'd be funny for a murderboner to go on a desword rampage and get a curse for his troubles.
Why should other antags be immune? Antagonists aren't on the same team, usually, in fact, it's often beneficial for antags to kill each other, like lings get bonus evolution points for eating other lings, or you can kill another traitor and steal the TC from their uplink if they leave it open.

Actually, cursing someone who did an assassinate mission on you sounds like sweet and beautiful justice to me.
If the whole point of it is as a hidden gotcha for people that go around making unnecessary kills, then cursing someone for a kill they have no option not to make, becuase it's literally their objective, then that kinda defeats that.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #638402

Screemonster wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:36 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:39 pm
Screemonster wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:39 pm It'd need something to not screw over antags, like being excluded from assassinations. I wouldn't make antags immune to the curse though as it'd be funny for a murderboner to go on a desword rampage and get a curse for his troubles.
Why should other antags be immune? Antagonists aren't on the same team, usually, in fact, it's often beneficial for antags to kill each other, like lings get bonus evolution points for eating other lings, or you can kill another traitor and steal the TC from their uplink if they leave it open.

Actually, cursing someone who did an assassinate mission on you sounds like sweet and beautiful justice to me.
If the whole point of it is as a hidden gotcha for people that go around making unnecessary kills, then cursing someone for a kill they have no option not to make, becuase it's literally their objective, then that kinda defeats that.
When do they not have an option to kill you though? Since progtraitor was introduced, you have all kinds of non-kill objectives you can pick instead. You have to make the conscious decision to get an objective to kill people now.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Pandarsenic » #638404

Blood Brothers when they actually happen; Changelings; etc.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #638405

Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:39 am Blood Brothers when they actually happen; Changelings; etc.
Isn't blood brothers disabled?

Anyway, I still disagree regardless even if it is their objective. The main idea of the Jester is to introduce chaos into the shift, just like every other antagonist. Acting as a "gotcha" for shitty player behavior is only a huge side benefit. And making a ling suddenly have to rush to do x objective after they kill the Jester when they thought they were done with their objectives is a lot more interesting and chaotic than "okay I killed the guy, time to SSD in a closet until the end of the shift" like some antagonists do.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Pandarsenic » #638406

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:47 am Isn't blood brothers disabled?
I thought so, too, but I actually ended up as one a few days ago.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by InfiniteGalaxies » #638443

Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:01 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:47 am Isn't blood brothers disabled?
I thought so, too, but I actually ended up as one a few days ago.
Blood brothers are MRP only
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Screemonster » #638548

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:59 am
Screemonster wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:36 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:39 pm
Screemonster wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:39 pm It'd need something to not screw over antags, like being excluded from assassinations. I wouldn't make antags immune to the curse though as it'd be funny for a murderboner to go on a desword rampage and get a curse for his troubles.
Why should other antags be immune? Antagonists aren't on the same team, usually, in fact, it's often beneficial for antags to kill each other, like lings get bonus evolution points for eating other lings, or you can kill another traitor and steal the TC from their uplink if they leave it open.

Actually, cursing someone who did an assassinate mission on you sounds like sweet and beautiful justice to me.
If the whole point of it is as a hidden gotcha for people that go around making unnecessary kills, then cursing someone for a kill they have no option not to make, becuase it's literally their objective, then that kinda defeats that.
When do they not have an option to kill you though? Since progtraitor was introduced, you have all kinds of non-kill objectives you can pick instead. You have to make the conscious decision to get an objective to kill people now.
Yes, because if there's anything this game needs, it's shitting on people for daring to take a violent objective.
The jester in mafia/werewolf/town of salem/whatever exists to stop people lynching randomly. The way you're describing it, you want to punish people for taking a kill objective at all. Fuck that.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Shadowflame909 » #638549

Yeah they should be syndicate related. Get the phrases and code-words, but no tc since their like a revenant clown biological time bomb
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #638556

Screemonster wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:38 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:59 am
Screemonster wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:36 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:39 pm
Screemonster wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:39 pm It'd need something to not screw over antags, like being excluded from assassinations. I wouldn't make antags immune to the curse though as it'd be funny for a murderboner to go on a desword rampage and get a curse for his troubles.
Why should other antags be immune? Antagonists aren't on the same team, usually, in fact, it's often beneficial for antags to kill each other, like lings get bonus evolution points for eating other lings, or you can kill another traitor and steal the TC from their uplink if they leave it open.

Actually, cursing someone who did an assassinate mission on you sounds like sweet and beautiful justice to me.
If the whole point of it is as a hidden gotcha for people that go around making unnecessary kills, then cursing someone for a kill they have no option not to make, becuase it's literally their objective, then that kinda defeats that.
When do they not have an option to kill you though? Since progtraitor was introduced, you have all kinds of non-kill objectives you can pick instead. You have to make the conscious decision to get an objective to kill people now.
Yes, because if there's anything this game needs, it's shitting on people for daring to take a violent objective.
The jester in mafia/werewolf/town of salem/whatever exists to stop people lynching randomly. The way you're describing it, you want to punish people for taking a kill objective at all. Fuck that.
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:47 am Anyway, I still disagree regardless even if it is their objective. The main idea of the Jester is to introduce chaos into the shift, just like every other antagonist. Acting as a "gotcha" for shitty player behavior is only a huge side benefit. And making a ling suddenly have to rush to do x objective after they kill the Jester when they thought they were done with their objectives is a lot more interesting and chaotic than "okay I killed the guy, time to SSD in a closet until the end of the shift" like some antagonists do.
Just re-quoting myself here since it appears you didn't see my other post on this issue.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #638557

Shadowflame909 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:42 am Yeah they should be syndicate related. Get the phrases and code-words, but no tc since their like a revenant clown biological time bomb
This would actually be SO GOOD. Jester finds the Traitor Bartender and talks things out with him, Jester goes off to Cargo disguised as the Bartender and acts as a distraction and gets themselves killed by the crew for some dumb shit, then later on in the shift if someone suspects the REAL Bartender of being a syndie, he can just be like "No, no, that was the Jester framing me, the guy who killed him got cursed, don't you remember? I'm innocent!", and use that as a cover.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by celularLAmp » #646750

Horrible idea for Sybil

Because heres what would happen

- Guy breaks into department like tider and destroys stuff gets killed and then the guy who is just doing their job has to do some gay side quest and stop what they're doing.
Being put on a timer to do a objective or get dusted sounds horrible

Killing megafauna or getting lots of money sound horrible to do,

Forcing people to roleplay mechanically is not fun and trying to punish people for doing things just makes the playerbase mad (see gas mask nerf)

I understand maybe you don't like murderboners but imagine you bomb a place and one of the people that was killed was a jester! now you're fucked.

It would also be easy to ahead of time if you know what the objectives are to try to prevent them.

If you have to make a special dish that requires cargo to deliver the food which can take some time. In general it sounds like it would be more annoying than fun for anyone.

I think it would be better if it was just like if you get killed by security you become a revenant. Maybe instead of dusting a mood debuff?
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #646799

celularLAmp wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:10 am- Guy breaks into department like tider and destroys stuff gets killed and then the guy who is just doing their job has to do some gay side quest and stop what they're doing.
Being put on a timer to do a objective or get dusted sounds horrible
The problem with this example is that it's not really your job to murder people who break in to your department. At most you should be detaining or critting them, and calling security, ESPECIALLY since the Jester has pacifism and never would have landed a single hit in the exchange. In this case the person "doing their job" was excessively bloodthirsty, and was therefore exactly the type of person who should be hit by a Jester curse.
celularLAmp wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:10 amKilling megafauna or getting lots of money sound horrible to do,
Sure. Some other people also disagreed with that suggestion. But it was only a suggestion. I'd love to hear your ideas for objectives.
celularLAmp wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:10 amForcing people to roleplay mechanically is not fun and trying to punish people for doing things just makes the playerbase mad (see gas mask nerf)
Wasn't the gas mask nerf because they were overpowered due to hiding your identity with no downsides?
celularLAmp wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:10 amI understand maybe you don't like murderboners but imagine you bomb a place and one of the people that was killed was a jester! now you're fucked.
I see this as a huge win. Right now explosives have effectively zero counterplay, and are, in my opinion, very overpowered from a mechanical perspective.
celularLAmp wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:10 amIt would also be easy to ahead of time if you know what the objectives are to try to prevent them
Not necessarily. If there are 10 possible objectives, it seems pretty unlikely to me that the Jester could pre-emptively sabotage more than 1 or 2 of them before someone gets pissed off at them and detains them.
celularLAmp wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:10 amIf you have to make a special dish that requires cargo to deliver the food which can take some time. In general it sounds like it would be more annoying than fun for anyone.
I think that someone under a Jester's curse would force their way in to Cargo, not calmly file paperwork at the desk and wait for their order, personally, which is good, it generates more action in the shift.
celularLAmp wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:10 amI think it would be better if it was just like if you get killed by security you become a revenant. Maybe instead of dusting a mood debuff?
Unfortunately, these changes would destroy the Jester concept completely. Firstly, security is the least likely part of the crew to murderbone, and secondly, they were never the intended target of the Jester anyway. And, you know, if you become a revenant, then people will just do their absolute best to get shoved by someone and then space themselves to become a revenant, so what would be the point?

Additionally, the negatives from the Jester's curse need to be severe enough that people won't just always make the decision to just not do the objective. I could accept it not being "You just die", but, I think it needs to be more severe than "you become sad". I would be willing to say a severe mood debuff and a random permanent non-paralytic trauma would do.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by celularLAmp » #646860

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:14 am
celularLAmp wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 12:10 am- Guy breaks into department like tider and destroys stuff gets killed and then the guy who is just doing their job has to do some gay side quest and stop what they're doing.
Being put on a timer to do a objective or get dusted sounds horrible
The problem with this example is that it's not really your job to murder people who break in to your department. At most you should be detaining or critting them, and calling security,
person is totally not trying to break in to hurt me just to give me a hug!
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:14 am Firstly, security is the least likely part of the crew to murderbone,
REVS REVS REVS revs.
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:14 am I see this as a huge win. Right now explosives have effectively zero counterplay, and are, in my opinion, very overpowered from a mechanical perspective.
I hear a bomb ticking I either defuse it or leave the area.
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:14 am then people will just do their absolute best to get shoved by someone and then space themselves to become a revenant, so what would be the point?

people are going to do that regardless if dying gets a greentext moron. if they don't become revenant they still greentext or get to do jester shenagains.

Making people have a IC reason to get lynched is a horrible idea that will just encourage bad behaviour like going around and reading wgw or other things that make you valid.
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by Helios » #647088

Whatever the jester does end up becoming, I hope it has environmental changing effects. As an example, after the jester kills somebody, their body starts to spread checkerboard patterns. Standing on the white tiles causes you to heal 2 damage, and while stepping on a black tile your character receives double damage from all sources
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Re: Antagonist idea - the Jester

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #647184

I thought with my heatwave cooked brains reading the shortened title this thread was about Jesus the Messiah as a antagonist, riding in (surfing specifically) on a cross shaped travelling space rod to smite the nay-sayers in the coming of days until biblically correct angels arrive and send everyone to a maid-cafe to be sorted in the saintly hopline.

Instead i got a thread about a unfunny venerally transmitted jester that's totally a rip of "It follows".

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