/tg/Station 13

Time-Green wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:54 pm You can just add a poll to your post without pointlesly using third-party websites

Also tram is great learn to cope

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:49 pm

Time-Green wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:54 pm You can just add a poll to your post without pointlesly using third-party websites

Also tram is great learn to cope

Mind you, I initially just wanted to post the change link once each time I joined, but an admin told me to post it here instead. I literally have not used this forum prior to this post lol
Also also, I can't "cope" with my internet and computer being completely unable to handle the tram's existence, and I am not the only one.

Helios wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:27 am I like Tram.
How bad is the lag when Singulos eats the Tram?

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:57 am A: never call the maptainers admins ever again
B: opinion noted and ignored

Helios wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:27 am I like Tram.
How bad is the lag when Singulos eats the Tram?

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:57 am A: never call the maptainers admins ever again
B: opinion noted and ignored

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:56 am

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:57 am A: never call the maptainers admins ever again
B: opinion noted and ignored

My apologies for not being ensconced in the Seven Layers of SS13 Hell man, I just play the game. Have never set foot on the Discord. Don't even have Discord. I literally didn't even know this forum existed before Scriptis told me to post the petition here instead of dropping it in OOC chat upon join. Probably not going to use it outside of this post.
And as an aside,
You're not doing a very good job ignoring it by posting a snarky reply, you know.
And as an aside aside,
As it says in the petition's description, my problem with tram is not just that I don't like it, it's that it is an unplayable experience for me, and reportedly, for numerous other players. If you need a God-tier PC to render a single map in a decade-and-then-some old pixel game, maybe that map isn't fit for play, technically impressive as it may be. All I'm saying.

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:56 am My apologies for not being ensconced in the Seven Layers of SS13 Hell man, I just play the game. Have never set foot on the Discord. Don't even have Discord. I literally didn't even know this forum existed before Scriptis told me to post the petition here instead of dropping it in OOC chat upon join. Probably not going to use it outside of this post.
And as an aside,
You're not doing a very good job ignoring it by posting a snarky reply, you know.
And as an aside aside,
As it says in the petition's description, my problem with tram is not just that I don't like it, it's that it is an unplayable experience for me, and reportedly, for numerous other players. If you need a God-tier PC to render a single map in a decade-and-then-some old pixel game, maybe that map isn't fit for play, technically impressive as it may be. All I'm saying.

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:46 am

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:56 am My apologies for not being ensconced in the Seven Layers of SS13 Hell man, I just play the game. Have never set foot on the Discord. Don't even have Discord. I literally didn't even know this forum existed before Scriptis told me to post the petition here instead of dropping it in OOC chat upon join. Probably not going to use it outside of this post.
And as an aside,
You're not doing a very good job ignoring it by posting a snarky reply, you know.
And as an aside aside,
As it says in the petition's description, my problem with tram is not just that I don't like it, it's that it is an unplayable experience for me, and reportedly, for numerous other players. If you need a God-tier PC to render a single map in a decade-and-then-some old pixel game, maybe that map isn't fit for play, technically impressive as it may be. All I'm saying.

Lemme be a bit more straight up with you.
I do not like the idea of petitioning for map removals, because mapping is a very personal thing with a lot of time investment, and because it's such a large change it tends to get a lot of hatred from the community.
SUICIDE KILO, SUICIDE DOUGHNUT, SUICIDE PUBBY, SUICIDE TRAM, etc.

I don't like this, so I'm more caustic about these sorts of things then I would normally be since I'm used to dealing with well, caustic people.
Most of the people I see complaining about tram are talking about just like, the tram, which I think is stupid. Performance issues tho, that I can chew on.

I semi recently changed how multiz rendering works, and while it is pretty I've had reports of it being really hard on some pcs.
I don't really have a great way of testing clientside impact myself, so I've not been able to do much about this.

Recently we had https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71005 pr'd, which in theory should reduce the impact significantly.
If your trouble is lag try it and lemme know if it helps at all. If it doesn't or not enough I'll go plumbing in some of the other clientside operations that are down on the lower plane masters (the ones you don't see in focus) to see if a config option for them will help the cause.

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:54 am you're wrong about box tho icebox has class

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:12 amBut why?

san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:49 pmNo. Sorry :/

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:59 pm haha yeah maintainers listen to popular opinion please listen to me and sign my petition and pretend i'm relevant and important haha

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:01 pm

san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:49 pmNo. Sorry :/

Is there a single member of staff who won't pointlessly throw snark at me for the crime of trying to gauge interest in the removal of a map? We get it, you're untouchable, you needn't flaunt it in the most senselessly dickish way possible. You can, but it isn't necessary.

san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:10 pm

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:01 pm

san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:49 pmNo. Sorry :/

Is there a single member of staff who won't pointlessly throw snark at me for the crime of trying to gauge interest in the removal of a map? We get it, you're untouchable, you needn't flaunt it in the most senselessly dickish way possible. You can, but it isn't necessary.

Do you understand how many man-hours over how many years have gone into the creation of a map? I would be shocked if it was less than a thousand man-hours collectively. The first iterations of Tram were being made in August 2017! (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12729) This doesn't even include the amount of coding that had to go into making the Tram (and then making the Tram better). Do you understand just how much effort was put in by talented people to keep the map at a steady state? Do you understand just how harmful it is to this content creators to keep demanding the removal of a map because you just don't like it? What you see as "snark" is absolutely nothing compared to the level of noxious thought being propagated here.

If there is a genuine issue, file an issue report on the GitHub. If you have a feature request or want to see it better somehow, the Ideas subforum is a good place to do that. Criticisms could also go in the mapping subforum, and those are okay too as long as you're constructive and understanding of the creator's intentions (and do not lend yourself to toxic arguments). MMMiracles, the creator of Tram, has done a great deal for this map, and continues to solicit feedback on improving the map.

However, actively demanding the removal of a map is such an objectively horrible thought that I refuse to entertain your ideas.

Tram will be removed when there's something better than Tram (that also fulfills a similar funny gimmick somehow). I have news for you on that front. I doubt anyone will ever make something better than Tram, because they will be discouraged by just how much flak mappers take. If we bow to public pressure and remove maps for "The community doesn't like it :/", then there will be absolutely no faith in the team and map quality will suffer more than it has ever suffered.

I apologize if my initial post was a bit too blunt since I didn't expand or elaborate on my thoughts as much as I had here. I resent the idea that I am "untouchable", and I am not "dickish". I want to protect mappers.

Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?

Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pm

Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?

Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.

I can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pm I can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pm

Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?

Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.

I can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.

Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:28 pm

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pm

Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?

Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.

I can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.

But then why did you go ahead and make a petition to straight up remove a map instead of trying to pinpoint the problem that's causing you lag, bring forth your issue on a constructive thread, git, or discord, showing some footage and debugging which could be used, paired with other info, to help others help you?

Sorry but you sought snarky remarks by yourself. If you don't dislike the map and are just having performance issues with it, why would it ever occur to you that it should be nuked as a first option? Do you understand how unreasonable this is?

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:23 pm

san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:10 pm

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:01 pm

san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:49 pmNo. Sorry :/

Is there a single member of staff who won't pointlessly throw snark at me for the crime of trying to gauge interest in the removal of a map? We get it, you're untouchable, you needn't flaunt it in the most senselessly dickish way possible. You can, but it isn't necessary.

Do you understand how many man-hours over how many years have gone into the creation of a map? I would be shocked if it was less than a thousand man-hours collectively. The first iterations of Tram were being made in August 2017! (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12729) This doesn't even include the amount of coding that had to go into making the Tram (and then making the Tram better). Do you understand just how much effort was put in by talented people to keep the map at a steady state? Do you understand just how harmful it is to this content creators to keep demanding the removal of a map because you just don't like it? What you see as "snark" is absolutely nothing compared to the level of noxious thought being propagated here.

If there is a genuine issue, file an issue report on the GitHub. If you have a feature request or want to see it better somehow, the Ideas subforum is a good place to do that. Criticisms could also go in the mapping subforum, and those are okay too as long as you're constructive and understanding of the creator's intentions (and do not lend yourself to toxic arguments). MMMiracles, the creator of Tram, has done a great deal for this map, and continues to solicit feedback on improving the map.

However, actively demanding the removal of a map is such an objectively horrible thought that I refuse to entertain your ideas.

Tram will be removed when there's something better than Tram (that also fulfills a similar funny gimmick somehow). I have news for you on that front. I doubt anyone will ever make something better than Tram, because they will be discouraged by just how much flak mappers take. If we bow to public pressure and remove maps for "The community doesn't like it :/", then there will be absolutely no faith in the team and map quality will suffer more than it has ever suffered.

I apologize if my initial post was a bit too blunt since I didn't expand or elaborate on my thoughts as much as I had here. I resent the idea that I am "untouchable", and I am not "dickish". I want to protect mappers.

1. Your signature thing says mapping is easy, though that's more of a nitpick.
2. Literally only posted here because an admin fucking told me to post here.
3. The reason I want the map removed isn't "I don't like it", it's that it's unplayable to numerous players, myself included.
4. ":/" is snark, no matter what way you want to spin it.
5. I don't think they'll be discouraged by people not liking a map, or mappers "catching flak" (you wanna see flak, look at the replies to this very post, which are 90% ragebait attention whoring with nothing even remotely worth acknowledging, hence my abrasive response upon seeing what I thought was more of the same from a Head Admin of all people) so much as they'll be discouraged by people talking up how much of a herculean task it is to create a map, which I don't doubt, for the record. In fact, considered mapping, myself, at one point, until I saw aeons of testimony basically saying "It's suffering, don't do it".
6. It wasn't that it's blunt, I appreciate blunt and I appreciate honesty, it's that it gave me nothing to sink my teeth into and came off as condescending and dismissive, which, dismissive, that's not worthy of fault in the slightest, I'm fine being dismissed. It's the condescending part, since I literally started playing TG to escape the condescending, dickhole, "I'm always right because I'm the admin", admin mentality present on FulpStation, which I now acknowledge wasn't your angle or intention.
Regardless,
Thank you for elaborating.

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:54 pm

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pm

Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?

Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.

I can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.

works on my pc

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:42 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:28 pm

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pm

Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?

Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.

I can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.

But then why did you go ahead and make a petition to straight up remove a map instead of trying to pinpoint the problem that's causing you lag, bring forth your issue on a constructive thread, git, or discord, showing some footage and debugging which could be used, paired with other info, to help others help you?

Sorry but you sought snarky remarks by yourself. If you don't dislike the map and are just having performance issues with it, why would it ever occur to you that it should be nuked as a first option? Do you understand how unreasonable this is?

I made the petition for a few reasons, namely, because despite the various fistfuls of people I've heard say basically the same thing, i.e., "Tram makes my game literally unplayable", the general sentiment is just "tram bad because tram bad", at least from what I've seen.
Github is obnoxious to try and get working, and I have tried various times, to no avail (plus, again, I was LITERALLY TOLD TO POST HERE BY AN ADMIN, something many of you conveniently seem to ignore me having said in the first fucking place).
I do not have Discord and will not have Discord.

But yes, I'm just begging for people to ragebait and say nothing of worth as I try and gauge just how bad the issue actually is via petition. You act like petitions actually get anything done and aren't a glorified consensus measurement. Regardless of what happens with the petition, Tram isn't going anywhere because some nobody made a petition, nor did I ever think it would.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 9:56 pm Tram is good.