/tg/Station 13

So due to the numerous complaints of players being toxic and salty because they were killed by a traitor in low pop rounds and admins being forced to break the rules to their own unfair advantage because they don't want to be killed on said low pop rounds, why not just get rid of antags all together on populations less than say 10-20 players?
This would ensure nobody gets hurt or removed from the rounds and it also ensures there's no conflict or excitement on the servers.

If people are getting noted, punished or banned for 'murderboning' on low pop for playing a game within the current rules and mechanics, then I think something drastic may be needed.

Because it's clearly the fault of the person who rolled traitor via RNG, rather than the vague rulings and mechanics and contradicting whims of the admins right? How dare people who rolled traitor get to play the game as a traitor.

Sightld2 says:

Traitor gaming while 5 people are on is cringe

toemas says:

i dont see a problem with admin abusing someone whos being a nuisance when the pop is that low

CMDR_Gungnir says:

People who rush their objectives on dead pop have no rights tbh. The game literally just doesn't function at that player count. Take the time to chill out and vibe. Experiment with shit, instead of going out of your way to turn that Dead Pop into No Pop.

iain0 says:

Weird one... What is it with tots blindly following their objectives even on like 5 pop stations. So you get 69TC and the syndicate love you and .... there's no finale, there's no-one to fight, nothing interesting to do. You can go fire up a private server and literally lone tot, will be about as challenging and exciting overall. Like whats really the point. Sure, if you want to, try not to kill or RR much because there's really not that many people to kill or RR.

Moocow12 says:

Code issue, its generally seen as following your objectives is the only thing that is 100% sanctioned as an antagonist, regardless of pop, if those objectives are too much for low pop then dont have anyone with those objectives on low pop

cybersaber101 says:

What kind of turbo soy bores himself to death as traitor and then tries to bore everyone else to death while waiting for a(eventually) boring shuttle call at 5 pop?

Turbonerd says:

The tot murderboning in lowpop showed no empathy, someone needs to take him out. I think the admins could've ahelped, but it was 5 pop and the tot literally held the round hostage.

Drag says:

I definitely think that antags need a pop count cap, there is nothing engaging about having an antagonist when there's only four people to fight them. Security is just as much as an antagonists job content as an antagonist is to security.

dataorangebottle says:

doing tot on deadpop and acting like there's 70 people on is shit. how are you even still having fun at that point, come on. you're not roleplaying with anyone, you're not kicking anyone's ass, you're just... sitting there, staring at bars as they fill up, until you get a final objective. like, congrats?

The people have spoken. Just because the rules don't say anything about not playing antag on low pop and just because the mechanics allow you to play traitor and have fun on low pop, DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD!

Extended Greenshifts for everyone.

Also we should probably remove any events which damage the station or cause conflicts/potential injuries to players on low pop, which would allow players to pursue peaceful, uneventful, safe and secure rounds, which would ensure nobody gets hurt and the rounds will go on without conflict for a long time.

Alternatively, instead of removing antags from low pop rounds, we should perhaps just set up a system whereby anyone who rolls antags gets either auto-banned, auto-noted.

I think once the player numbers get over 20+ players, then one antag can spawn (near the end of the round - at the admins discretion) but they probably shouldn't get any TC or special powers, nor should said antag be allowed to hurt anyone or cause any disruption to other players.

Maybe allow 2 antags to spawn once the population hits around the 40 - 80 player mark. But in the interest of balance, make sure that the following shift is an extended green shift, so nobody gets their feelings hurt.

Also we should change the description of the game from

Space Station 13 is a paranoia-laden round-based roleplaying game set against the backdrop of a nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station, with charming spritework designed to represent the sci-fi setting and its dangerous undertones. Have fun, and survive!

to Space station 13 is a peaceful round-based roleplaying game set against the backdrop of a very sensible metallic hugbox masquerading as a space station with charming spritework designed to represent the sci-fi setting and its calming undertones.

Just so people don't get confused.

Ew no

I think if the population is less than 10 there should be some check for at least one active living security officer (dets don't count >:v) to be present before it'll spawn a traitor and/or a heretic. I don't think disabling midrounds would be very good, as midrounds are typically threats that the entire crew responds to regardless. I don't want to cultivate the hugboxy bullshit I've been seeing, however having a lot of antagonists where nobody can do anything about it alienates the players in an environment where admins arnt usually readily available.

There are plenty of things to do as antagonist that arent murderboning.

Torment one person, give them touch choices like "All your stuff, or your friend's life!"

Replace the captain, establish a dictatorship where all crew must lick your boots and pay tribute!

Become a vigilante, hunting down and breaking the spines of anyone who commits a crime, regardless of if it is trespassing or murder!

Kidnap crewmembers and force them to pick their least favorite limb to lose!

The fun of the game lies in the interactions with other people, so even if you've reduced the crew to a crate full of nuggeted people you drag around screaming, you'll have a better time than an empty station full of corpses.

This is obviously a joke thread but I'll respond seriously.

ss13 being bad on lowpop (Anything <10) isn't an antagonist issue, the game just isn't designed for so few players. Unless we get something like a special map, lowpop will always be balanced bad.

I think people should start treating lowpop rounds like a sandbox. Want to try a really risky engine set-up? Sure go ahead. Want to fuck around with botany? You've got plenty of time. Want to practice fighting lavaland mobs with server lag? Perfect for that. Want to brush up on your murdering skills as antagonist? Well, you've got a good shot at it.

I understand why some people don't like it when others murderbone on lowpop. It's definitely annoying when people spend the entire night doing it. But I think you should simply enjoy all the extra things you can do on lowpop and not get caught up in the many places it falls short.

As soon as that tenth person latejoins it is your duty to immediately push them back out that airlock because they've been assigned traitor.

i like comfy vibes as much as the next guy but i've read some REALLY good traitor stories on places like Campbell which very rarely get over 10 players and that would absolutely crush it

here's an example: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 3747986482

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:24 pm

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:01 pm If we don't allow antags to antag properly on lowpop, we should probably look to disable creating them entirely until they're allowed to kill.

This was my thought last night but I never got to posting it because I was condensing the logs.

Seems like a population breakpoints issue. Either for the number of antags (any I guess) or for prog tot objectives availability.

If we didn't want there to be low pop antags or the ability for low pop antags to get legendary objectives, then why is it coded the way it is?

If we want antags to have a certain range in low pop, then why is it coded the way it is?

If this is the reality people need to be expecting, codify it. Make it VERY clear to people during low pop, even if that boils down to a giant obnoxious prompt telling antags they can't kill or be a dick because there are less than exactly 12 people in the station (arbitrary garbage). Sowwwwwwy!

I can't stand precedents like this that set people up for failure because the coded gameplay implies one thing and everything else implies another.

Don't want low pop antags that might just get an objective that involves killing? Remove them.

There are better ways to do this than preventing antags from existing during low pop. They can still do plenty to progress a round.

Perfect world solution (see: beyond the impossible) force special lowpop maps, and perhaps even special lowpop job configuration, and then add custom lowpop antags and custom round-end senerios.

This is a policy issue and configurable by headadmins in dynamic

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:13 am Perfect world solution (see: beyond the impossible) force special lowpop maps, and perhaps even special lowpop job configuration, and then add custom lowpop antags and custom round-end senerios.

the problem with this is that i love playing and experimenting with the whole ss13 experience always, and I don't really like this idea because it severely hinders the ability for me to find someone new on a completely deadpop station and fucking teach them stuff because i won't have all the tools available to me.

i really just don't like the idea of a station map that lacks feature parity (not like "this map has a tram but the other four don't", i mean relatively basic game mechanics that are required to perform a job) with any other map. it wouldn't feel like something that i would greatly enjoy playing, i came for ss13 and all of it's weird complex interactions, and I want to flesh them all out and teach them to everyone when i log onto an effin ss13 server

Progtots are railroaded into objectives for TC. Old traitors had way more freedom on lowpop to fuck around because their objectives genuinely were optional - they had their full potential unlocked from the start.

Now lowpop traitors are guided down a treadmill of pointless fetch quests feeding directly into them collecting objectives to depopulate the station, culminating in finsl objectives to end the shift. Objectives they risk being noted or banned for completing.

Policy is still drafted around the idea traitors only had limited kill objectives and there were limited traitor rolls. Now a lowpop traitor can roll objective after objective to kill half a dozen people. And dynamic can keep making new traitors until everyone with a box ticked is antag.

As someone who basically only plays on low/deadpop... please no. That would basically just mean I never get to play antag.

I think the current state where it's fetch quests towards final objective if you want to, but killing people is generally best to be avoided is perfectly fine.

I see two problems:

1: Progtots are encouraged not only to do their side objectives, but they're also mandated to do so if they wish to do a specific gimmick per game design.
Prior to progtots, players had more freedom to do dumb gimmicks as they weren't replocked out of their gear and were encouraged to completely ignore their objectives if they felt to do so.
Nowadays, tots are still encouraged to ignore their objectives, only, they CAN'T because all their gear is locked behind the treadmill.

2: Dynamic threat and lowpop don't work together nicely... Or at all.
High threat on lowpop causes a lot of players to be antags when there's not enough crew to actually handle that threat. With old tots, this wouldn't be as much of a problem... Some antags would decide to side with the crew anyway or go off to do something that isn't so murderous.

Due to the first problem, players are goaded into more "asshole" styles of play. Not because they even want to, but because they feel they HAVE to. The second problem then exacerbates this style of play, which leads players to have a poor opinion of lowpop.

Obviously the solution is to axe progtots and tweak dynamic for lowpop, but I doubt that either will happen. I do not think there can ever be a policy solution that can fairly reconcile what antags are asked to do, lowpop, and the way the game is designed.

I was never concerned with progression with antags to begin with, but with the limited availability of objectives and maybe wanting more of them to exist. I'd STILL like to see more diversity and complexity to it. I had always wanted to see them as not being objectives at all with no pass or fail state, just loose suggestions for things people could do to make the round happen! Maybe get side objectives that grant TC that are grouped under that loose suggestion for example.

Do that and now you have people making serious progress towards driving the round forwards AND getting rewards for it, that doesn't just result in "lol station dead". WOW!

Depowering the station, wanting to cripple a department, getting rich, wanting to blow up the station, wanting to kidnap and ransom people, idk man.

Consider depowering the station. Objectives with rewards could be like:

Breaking an apc in an area (maybe with additional code to areas so people can't just farm apc breaks)
Blow up the SM
Break SMES units
Maybe a kill objective or two in the engineering department that is available because of server pop or number of crew alive

If you play progtot on a server of ten people and end up with objectives that will kill four of them, whilst another progtot kills three... where the server pop at? Why are objectives like these available at low pop? Or rather why is their occurrence not limited? Why is the number of people on the server, number of crew alive or something of that nature not being considered for objectives more?

The issue is not antags on low pop. The issue is objectives or a lack of creativity, inspo or feeling forced to do objectives so someone can make a gimmick happen. Not to mention how many objectives are so GOD DAMN UNBELIEVABLY BORING AND TEDIOUS. I don't want to play pet patrol time to find fido for the 800th damn time because my options for antag economy are that limited that I have to once again larp as animal control.

Don't blame antags existing on low pop for any of this. Instead be considering potential ways that prog tot (or other antags available during lol pop) could be overall improved that would indirectly make this less of an issue, because prog tot is the 'glaring offender' being brought up in this thread. I don't think people realize how boring a low pop round without antags would be and how many people wouldn't even bother joining at low pop at all. Disabling low pop antags is the laziest and most harmful solution available.

Just so you know my whole OP was sarcasm, based on people freaking out whenever an antag kills someone on low pop. I genuinely don't want them removed.

I agree with Misdoubtful's post about extra objectives etc

Idk even with the sarcasm there are people that would still actually be looking at things this way. If those people don't like things, they could be finding some way to be contributing to an actual solutions to things that are actual problems.

Its like when people get mad over a feature removal for something that was very blatantly talked about as being problematic when no one steps up to rework it.

I think people should accept the fact there can be conflict, chaos and mayhem even on their little 10-pop singleplayer rounds. It's not "lame" to actually antag as the antagonist, and it's not "murderboning" because you killed 2 people on a 15pop shift. If you want a quiet marathon server to enjoy lowpop, Campbell is a great option. Alternatively, you can boot up a private server. No one's entitled to a perfectly safe, quiet round, whether the pop is 5 or 50 - it does suck to get RR'd when the round's not gonna reset for another 3 hours and you can't get another round in before then, but that sort of risk fuels the paranoia that makes the game fun to begin with.

Antags should be the main characters of the story, everyone else are side characters. It's also worth keeping in mind that not every antag is going to be an RP god that has 6000 hours of experience playing DnD to create a perfect story and experience for everyone. I would urge anyone who criticizes lowpop antags for being "lame," to ask themselves if they could do better. If their answer is "no because lowpop antag is broken," if their solution is to play essentially as a nonantag with toys - or better yet, they have antag turned off! - then I would argue they're not in any position to criticize.

Don't forget some people can only find the time to play on server when it's low pop and some people as Sinful suggests may not be that experienced, so having the opportunity to play antag without getting wrecked by 50+ validhunters is something that shouldn't be made tabboo. And as mentioned in another thread - the rules work generally well, but create a kind of 'grey area' when on low pop, which means people either do their objectives and perhaps kill 1/4 or 1/3 of the crew, or they get hissed at for disturbing an otherwise peaceful round.
I'm of the opinion that antags SHOULD be allowed on low pop, but maybe either a rule adjustment is put in place or perhaps fixing the conflict between rule and mechanics.

Also if people want to be play low pop to learn roles, then why can't people play low pop to learn how to become more robust as a chosen antag?

Maybe Sinful has answered it already? Turn off/reduce antags on Campbell and make that server the learning/social server, whilst keeping Terry, Manuel and Basil as servers which contain the risk of being killed?

Sorry for the sarcastic thread btw, at least it's generated discussion.

I know the OP was literally made in bad-faith as bait, but I don't see how anyone enjoys doing objectives below 10 pop. When the game itself has so few people playing that it doesn't function, there is little to do besides practice the jobs and RP. You're not even getting accurate objective practice at that point because there's nobody to walk in on you planting bugs/putting up posters/etc. Furthermore, if you take and complete kill objectives without reviving people, you're effectively round removing them and preventing them from practicing or roleplaying so that you can get funny green text with no stakes or challenge. Absolutely baffling.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:50 pm I know the OP was literally made in bad-faith as bait,

Satire is “bad-faith”, apparently. Somebody call Jonathan Swift.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:50 pm I know the OP was literally made in bad-faith as bait, but I don't see how anyone enjoys doing objectives below 10 pop.

Hate to say this, but not everyone is you. You might enjoy playing the game in one way, others enjoy it another way. Some like messing about in Science, some might prefer RP'ing in the bar or hunting bad guys as Sec or growing mega-plants or playing pranks, or playing card-games, or hunting their enemies, or RP'ing as a changeling. You know this because it's a sandbox environment.
We have the options of disabling antagonist per character if you don't want to play antag, but because this is a paranoid-roleplaying setting, we kind of go into the game expecting that there's going to be at least one bad guy on the station. That's the very nature of the game. Conflict and dynamic and emergent gameplay. And the risk of perhaps being someone's target.

And my topic really wasn't really bait, it was more of a sideways look at a current issue. By presenting a slightly over-dramatised version of people's various reactions to low pop antags, I was shining a light on the situation (albeit a little sarcastically).

When the game itself has so few people playing that it doesn't function, there is little to do besides practice the jobs and RP. You're not even getting accurate objective practice at that point because there's nobody to walk in on you planting bugs/putting up posters/etc. Furthermore, if you take and complete kill objectives without reviving people, you're effectively round removing them and preventing them from practicing or roleplaying so that you can get funny green text with no stakes or challenge. Absolutely baffling.

And you've clearly not included the part I already mentioned this as an issue between the actualy mechanics (i.e RNG traitor spawn with objectives) vs the population amount. If coders and admins and certain players don't want people having murder objectives on low pop then instead of getting frustrated that people aren't following the grey area rules, why not make a change so this type of situation doesn't occur within the mechanics itself?

What about this for a solution then?

Anyone playing a non-head, non-security role has the option to disable their chance of becoming a primary/secondary target in the character creation screen. However this will also disable your chance of rolling an antagonist.

Anyone who wants the chance to become an antagonist, will not be able to disable their chance of being a primary/secondary target.

Please note that people who have disabled antag/target will still be able to die due to other circumstances (caught up in a gun-fight, killed in an explosion, plasma fire etc) and also won't be immune to group antagonists like cult/revs which are conversion based antags.

kayozz wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:24 pm What about this for a solution then?

Anyone playing a non-head, non-security role has the option to disable their chance of becoming a primary/secondary target in the character creation screen. However this will also disable your chance of rolling an antagonist.

Anyone who wants the chance to become an antagonist, will not be able to disable their chance of being a primary/secondary target.

Please note that people who have disabled antag/target will still be able to die due to other circumstances (caught up in a gun-fight, killed in an explosion, plasma fire etc) and also won't be immune to group antagonists like cult/revs which are conversion based antags.

How's this for an option.
Boot up a private server if you don't want to play with other people.

kayozz wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:24 pm What about this for a solution then?

Anyone playing a non-head, non-security role has the option to disable their chance of becoming a primary/secondary target in the character creation screen. However this will also disable your chance of rolling an antagonist.

Anyone who wants the chance to become an antagonist, will not be able to disable their chance of being a primary/secondary target.

Please note that people who have disabled antag/target will still be able to die due to other circumstances (caught up in a gun-fight, killed in an explosion, plasma fire etc) and also won't be immune to group antagonists like cult/revs which are conversion based antags.

your point was better when it was that we dont need to be making any dramatic changes at all