/tg/Station 13

I think this would give players a reason to not be "WHOOPS ACCIDENTALLY CONVERTED!!"

1) If a player mob would be converted, that body is offered up via prompt for a few seconds
2) If nobody responds, the original player keeps their body and stays in the game
3) If the player is later de-converted, the ghost possessing them receives the same treatment and the player is offered to return
4) If the player won't/can't accept the return (DC'd, took a ghost role, etc), the antag ghost becomes the new permanent owner

This would apply to:
-Rev
-Emagged borgs
-Cultists
-Heretic corpse conversions

Pro
+Increases Paranoia "Is that guy acting like he was earlier?"
+Prevent players from targeting specific players for convert due to known ability "let's go get John Assistant because he's robust"
+Staticname becomes less meaningful in a meta sense because who knows who anyone actually is

Cons
-Would probably just not work in lowpop
-Getting rev flashed at 0:00:01 that could end up as "round removal" because some ghost took your body would probably suck.

How would we enforce this policy wise?

Would it follow the same restrictions split personalities follow?

Feel this is pretty lame for the vast majority of players who don't behave this way and thus dont deserve to suddenly be evicted from their story.

I also feel that while the dead ghost pool contains a number of victims, it will also contain a lot of people who deservedly died in their story, offering return to round and repeat options doesn't seem great, overall cheapening death.

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:23 pm How would we enforce this policy wise?

Would it follow the same restrictions split personalities follow?

I would imagine so to a degree - there would have to be a blurb about "You don't remember your past lives" per the usual, and I guess something about self preservation and the pursuit of your goals.

I could see a shitter getting antag bodies just to suicide or something which sounds pretty bad but admin would probably catch that quick.

iain0 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:27 pm Feel this is pretty lame for the vast majority of players who don't behave this way and thus dont deserve to suddenly be evicted from their story.

Kind of agree, kind of don't. If you want to keep telling your story you better fight for your life or take reasonable precautionary measures. If the codebase wants to keep going on their direction on making deaths meaningful, I think that the threat of removal to this degree should be on the table.

I've seen far, far too many situations where this happens, and I don't just mean borgs. I mean normal jobs as well:


(Thanks conrad's signature)

A player, upon learning about conversion antags in their midst will "accidentally" wander into maint after raiding everything for equipment. Players that don't take reasonable measures to defend themselves because they just want to play antagonists. This is something that can be very subtle and not something we can expect administration to police, so a code solution seems useful.

iain0 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:27 pm I also feel that while the dead ghost pool contains a number of victims, it will also contain a lot of people who deservedly died in their story, offering return to round and repeat options doesn't seem great, overall cheapening death.

It's a return to the round but not as who they were, of course. They are now the evil side of someone else.

Ziiro wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:12 pm A player, upon learning about conversion antags in their midst will "accidentally" wander into maint after raiding everything for equipment. Players that don't take reasonable measures to defend themselves because they just want to play antagonists. This is something that can be very subtle and not something we can expect administration to police, so a code solution seems useful.

Indeed, but this just moves the goalposts, instead of getting yourself converted, you just "accidentally" speed run an assisted suicide and then go join the now more numerable antag rolling midrounds. And then you can speed run kill your next character and repeat. More notably cult/revs here.

Sorry but is this bait? This is a horrible idea. That was un-necessarily rude of me. I don't think this is a good idea.

Conversions removing you from playing the game is negative fun and would fast track to conversion modes being removed.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:41 pm Conversions removing you from playing the game is negative fun and would fast track to conversion modes being removed.

We're already on this route due to admins not enforcing the rules as written 9 times out of 10 so

Removes player agency, don't like it

You can't replace 80% of the potential manifest of the server with ghosts when the pool of players is shared between the living and the dead. Logistically this just won't work, or it turns into body musical chairs as people get pseudo-mindswapped.

new downside: polling for ghost roles takes time, even if it works like spiders, and then it's a whole different bag of worms where people are rushing to be the first person to click on [popular player] so they control his face and can make him say and do ridiculous things.
edit: plus, spiders already cause a headache with me in that they constantly highlight BYOND on the taskbar and make it slide back up into view. I am trying to browse the wiki for something while being in deadchat, not get a portion of the screen covered with shit I don't want to click on at this moment.

iain0 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:05 pm Indeed, but this just moves the goalposts, instead of getting yourself converted, you just "accidentally" speed run an assisted suicide and then go join the now more numerable antag rolling midrounds. And then you can speed run kill your next character and repeat. More notably cult/revs here.

At this point if someone throws themselves out of an airlock in order to try to take advantage of this, I still view that as something of an upside because they are no longer bolstering the antagonists ranks and the gear/prep doesn't actually help. Not a big change but it's still positive for someone who's going to act poorly anyway.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:41 pm Sorry but is this bait? This is a horrible idea. That was un-necessarily rude of me. I don't think this is a good idea.

Conversions removing you from playing the game is negative fun and would fast track to conversion modes being removed.

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:46 am Removes player agency, don't like it

Just don't get converted 4head. Play safe? Fight for your life if you want to keep playing. It's effectively the same as a death that gets you round removed, I don't see the appreciable difference.

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:43 pm

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:41 pm Conversions removing you from playing the game is negative fun and would fast track to conversion modes being removed.

We're already on this route due to admins not enforcing the rules as written 9 times out of 10 so

ding ding ding ding.

I think in a perfect world for a game like SS13, everything that can have a code solution to enforce roleplaying or an expected/wanted behavior should do so.

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:44 pm You can't replace 80% of the potential manifest of the server with ghosts when the pool of players is shared between the living and the dead. Logistically this just won't work, or it turns into body musical chairs as people get pseudo-mindswapped.

The body musical chairs is part of the point. Given the usual size for observer/ghost pools in rounds, I don't see it being a huge problem to get the process rolling.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:36 pm new downside: polling for ghost roles takes time, even if it works like spiders, and then it's a whole different bag of worms where people are rushing to be the first person to click on [popular player] so they control his face and can make him say and do ridiculous things.

With a 5 second polling window before assigning, that will keep the downtime from convert/etc to wakeup/usefulness to a minimum. Also this is a potential source for comedy.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:36 pm edit: plus, spiders already cause a headache with me in that they constantly highlight BYOND on the taskbar and make it slide back up into view. I am trying to browse the wiki for something while being in deadchat, not get a portion of the screen covered with shit I don't want to click on at this moment.

[X] Never for this round
Turn off [Volunteer for conversion antagonist]

Ziiro wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:49 pm

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:36 pm edit: plus, spiders already cause a headache with me in that they constantly highlight BYOND on the taskbar and make it slide back up into view. I am trying to browse the wiki for something while being in deadchat, not get a portion of the screen covered with shit I don't want to click on at this moment.

[X] Never for this round
Turn off [Volunteer for conversion antagonist]

Pretty sure that spiders, pAIs, and posibrains don't give that option, so they will continue to annoy me(unless something changed since the last time i was in deadchat).
Regardless, I don't want to shut off possible roles I might actually want from time to time just because they also annoy me most of the time.

Ziiro wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:49 pm

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:41 pm Sorry but is this bait? This is a horrible idea. That was un-necessarily rude of me. I don't think this is a good idea.

Conversions removing you from playing the game is negative fun and would fast track to conversion modes being removed.

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:46 am Removes player agency, don't like it

Just don't get converted 4head. Play safe? Fight for your life if you want to keep playing. It's effectively the same as a death that gets you round removed, I don't see the appreciable difference.

I do not agree with conversion as death. I think it slows the pace of the round, splices the story of a player (imo most important part of the game) into bits, and causes headache with people who are worried about "what their character would do" (tho I do think it'd be good if they loosened up a bit)

This combination of things makes your idea a non starter.

Worst best idea

I think in a perfect world for a game like SS13, everything that can have a code solution to enforce roleplaying or an expected/wanted behavior should do so.

Even if I were to generally agree, it is necessary to weigh the cost of what you lose by solving a solution through code. I think this solution creates a deeply unfun experience and as such would not approve it even though it can solve the problems it proposes

Not a fan of this idea because it doesn't make sense from a roleplay perspective. Even if you play LRP and your character is more of a self-insert than a static, they still act in a certain way, and talk in a certain way, swapping minds with a ghost for every single conversion antag takes away from that and removes the individuality.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:49 pm

I think in a perfect world for a game like SS13, everything that can have a code solution to enforce roleplaying or an expected/wanted behavior should do so.

Even if I were to generally agree, it is necessary to weigh the cost of what you lose by solving a solution through code. I think this solution creates a deeply unfun experience and as such would not approve it even though it can solve the problems it proposes

Well I appreciate the thoughts and time at least. Stick a fork in this one. I'll go back to the drawing board.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:53 am Not a fan of this idea because it doesn't make sense from a roleplay perspective. Even if you play LRP and your character is more of a self-insert than a static, they still act in a certain way, and talk in a certain way, swapping minds with a ghost for every single conversion antag takes away from that and removes the individuality.

So I do want to say that's one thing that would've been interesting to play out in terms of character and roleplaying:

The person is now literally an evil version of themselves that will have to act certain ways to not draw suspicion. Do they know this person's mannerisms? Are they better off not heading back to the department because people will notice they aren't who they used to be? Etc

Ziiro wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:49 pm Just don't get converted 4head. Play safe? Fight for your life if you want to keep playing. It's effectively the same as a death that gets you round removed, I don't see the appreciable difference.

Basically you want to punish players even more for making mistakes. Sorry but this is a terrible idea, it is unfairly punishing for rookie and experienced players alike, especially in a chaotic game where anything can happen to you in the blink of an eye; simply saying "git gud" doesn't cut it.

Here is my critique: While most people on the forums are over 1000 connections EPIC PRO ELITE GAMERS, most people aren't. Imagine you are a new player, and out of nowhere: "Mah'weyh pleggh at e'ntrath!" now you are a ghost and somebody else is controlling you. This is instead of being a new player, and out of nowhere: "Mah'weyh pleggh at e'ntrath!". WHAAAAT? I am now... look at all those buttons... This game is pretty cool.

vect0r wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:17 pm Here is my critique: While most people on the forums are over 1000 connections EPIC PRO ELITE GAMERS, most people aren't. Imagine you are a new player, and out of nowhere: "Mah'weyh pleggh at e'ntrath!" now you are a ghost and somebody else is controlling you. This is instead of being a new player, and out of nowhere: "Mah'weyh pleggh at e'ntrath!". WHAAAAT? I am now... look at all those buttons... This game is pretty cool.

honestly I hadn't even considered this fact. It would make it almost impossible for most newer players to learn about these kinds of mechanics. They're the most susceptible to conversion, and it would just hand off the player's body to an older player who likely already knows what the antag is about. What an anti-new player feature.