Positronic Brains?

[Gun Hog]

Positronic brains are essentially MMIs that take ghosts. They are a feature on Bay, and partially ported by RemieRichards on NT: https://github.com/NTStation/NTstation13/pull/772/files . I would like to finish her work and move it to /tg/! But, I would like feedback from the players. Is this something you would want to see in the game?

EDIT: This is now a Pull Request! https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/9147

Positronic Brains would work as MMIs do, except that they do not have brains - they take ghosts instead. They are informed that they should not have any metaknowledge, like pAIs. I will only code this if people actually want it!

EDIT: To address some common concerns about my version of Positronic Brains:
- Positronic Brains will not have binary or a radio. They will hear and speak only locally.
- They are selected in a similar manner as a pAI. A human player picks it up and activates it.
- They are informed that they have forgotten their past lives.
- They are functionally the same as AIs and Cyborgs. There is only one difference from normal MMIs: They will be named "Android" instead of "Cyborg", however. "AI ROUGE, BLOW THE DROIDS!"
- As mech pilots, they cannot be antagonist, and are informed to do no harm. (This may need to be amended)
- Cyborgs created during the AI Malfunction gamemode gain Malfunction laws even if they are configured to be unslaved.* The same will go for Androids, as they are not meant to be different.

*I do not know how this works with slaving to a non-Malf AI during AI Malfunction. I believe in this case, the slaved borg will hold the same laws as its AI. This would need to be fixed in different PR if so.

[Ikarrus]

The only issue I have is Administration-related.

Can we rename the "pAI Jobban" button to something more appropriate, like "Jobban Ghost Roles"?

I know it's stored as pAI in the database, but that doesn't stop us from changing how it's printed in the admin tools and the character preferences panel so people know that it doesn't just jobban you from pAI! It jobbans you from drones (and positronic brains) as well. I'd like to see it extended to any role that lets players rejoin the game from ghost.

[Gun Hog]

I am not familiar with admin tools, but I can certainly look into it!

[PKPenguin321]

I don't think anyone would have a real issue with this, it's been a highly requested feature for a while. Real issues are just potential meta, but that's bannable anyways.

[Saegrimr]

We can just deal with that like we deal with drone jobbans, extremely harsh and generally permanent.

[Miauw]

i've already heard admins complain about drones being unaccountable griff machines :V
also this would mean that the AI would probably have an army of borgs every round

[Atlanta-Ned]

Disable them during malf then (or until the AI is murdered and the round mulligans to something else)?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Disable them during malf then (or until the AI is murdered and the round mulligans to something else)?

Cue science rushing posibrains to hardconfirm malf.

[DemonFiren]

Posibrains are stupid-expensive.
I suggest not giving them :b until they're inserted in a borg/AI frame, though. On Bay (!) I managed to get dunked by a posimech listening to my chatter and drilling down my core, once.

[Gun Hog]

I will Not give them binary. They will simply be an MMI that accepts ghosts instead of brains. They will never be antag as mech pilots, and will function as normal AIs and Borgs (Androids) if you insert them into a borg shell or AI. I do not intend for them to be expensive or gated behind some ridiculous limits such as needing anomaly core for Phazons or alien brains for implants.

[Konork]

Disable them during malf then (or until the AI is murdered and the round mulligans to something else)?

Cue science rushing posibrains to hardconfirm malf.

Which is why they should be silently disabled. Ghosts would be just plain unable to enter them, and any error that shows up when someone tries using them in some way would be the same error that would show up when there's not a ghost in it. Since Science can't see ghosts, they wouldn't know if it was actually Malf or if there's just no ghosts trying to enter them.

[Gun Hog]

i've already heard admins complain about drones being unaccountable griff machines :V
also this would mean that the AI would probably have an army of borgs every round

There would obviously be an increase in average borg (android) counts, but I do not agree that the AI would have an "army" of androids and cyborgs every round. In my own observations playing in Science, I often find that the limit of the number of robots (actual name in code for borgs) is limited by how many bodies a Roboticist is willing to make. People who failed to become the roundstart cyborg will still run to the Robotics lab to be borged, as they will require a small amount of gold to make. Positronic brains would only make a significant difference when there is a motivated Roboticist/RD player who is suffering from a brain shortage.

The brains here will work like pAIs do, the Roboticist player will need to print one and activate it in-hand; he then waits for a ghost to accept. Once that is done, he will have a brain ready for insertion.

[TheNightingale]

Silently disabling them during malf still allows people to meta 'not-malf'.
"The posibrain booted up, so we know the APC was emagged", et cetera.

Maybe:
Malf ability (low cost): 'disable positronic brain network'. Stops posibrains working from then onwards; it doesn't affect any ghosts already in a brain.

Giving them :b is a Very Bad Idea for reasons stated above - not just malf, but traitor/subverted AIs too. Maybe the drone version of :b so they can talk to drones?

[DemonFiren]

But aren't posibrains technically beings, and drones are not meant to interact with those?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Yeah, unless you made posibrains names hidden so drones think they're just more drones

[Gun Hog]

Silently disabling them during malf still allows people to meta 'not-malf'.
"The posibrain booted up, so we know the APC was emagged", et cetera.

Maybe:
Malf ability (low cost): 'disable positronic brain network'. Stops posibrains working from then onwards; it doesn't affect any ghosts already in a brain.

Giving them :b is a Very Bad Idea for reasons stated above - not just malf, but traitor/subverted AIs too. Maybe the drone version of :b so they can talk to drones?

Please note, as stated in a previous post, Positronic brains will not have binary chat or a radio. The "meta" risk is exactly equal to that of downloading a pAI. Perhaps even less so, as they are specifically told that their past lives are forgotten. The PR I linked will be different from my final code.

That said, I do not find a reason to ban them from Malf rounds, as they would only be a threat to a Malf AI if they are instructed to be a mech pilot. Given the nature of most Roboticist players, they are more likely to take a mech into the fight themselves, rather than send a posibrain. Also, creating borgs, with human or synthetic brains, during (loud) Malf is something the Roboticist will regret as unslaved cyborgs created during AI Malfunction mode will have the Malfunction law.

[TechnoAlchemist]

The only significant flaw I see here is that in the event of a malf round, or a round where the ai is subverted there would be a large influx of people who would want to be borgs.

[Saegrimr]

They're not gonna start as borgs though.

If people know the AI is malfunctioning nobody is gonna be stupid enough to put the brain in a borg shell.

[Gun Hog]

The only issue I have is Administration-related.

Can we rename the "pAI Jobban" button to something more appropriate, like "Jobban Ghost Roles"?

I know it's stored as pAI in the database, but that doesn't stop us from changing how it's printed in the admin tools and the character preferences panel so people know that it doesn't just jobban you from pAI! It jobbans you from drones (and positronic brains) as well. I'd like to see it extended to any role that lets players rejoin the game from ghost.

Ikky, I need feedback from you and the other admins. I do not know how the database or bans work, so I would like the admin team's opinion on how it would best work for you guys.

[TechnoAlchemist]

They're not gonna start as borgs though.

If people know the AI is malfunctioning nobody is gonna be stupid enough to put the brain in a borg shell.

The issue is that you can see binary in dead chat, so you can know when it is rogue before the crew does. Giving the AI/emagging robo benefits

[Saegrimr]

The issue is that you can see binary in dead chat, so you can know when it is rogue before the crew does. Giving the AI/emagging robo benefits

This is true, though depending on how expensive they end up being and how soon they can get materials. I can't see too many positronic brains being made before the crew finds out.

At worst you get the ROLLAN4ANTAG dumbasses that suicide at roundstart hopping into a positronic brain, otherwise you get ghosts who wouldn't have been playing in the round anyway.

[Gun Hog]

The issue is that you can see binary in dead chat, so you can know when it is rogue before the crew does. Giving the AI/emagging robo benefits

This is true, though depending on how expensive they end up being and how soon they can get materials. I can't see too many positronic brains being made before the crew finds out.

At worst you get the ROLLAN4ANTAG dumbasses that suicide at roundstart hopping into a positronic brain, otherwise you get ghosts who wouldn't have been playing in the round anyway.

They are easy to make, they just require a bit of gold and some easy research levels (Data 5, Bio 4), meaning you must loot the vault or wait for mining first, and Science must be competent and doing R&D. Anyone going through the effort for that just to be a positronic brain is better off simply walking to Robotics and asking to be borged - you are much more likely to get borged as a human player who pesters another player rather than simply waiting and hoping.

They are in the same boat as drones in terms of rarity - someone in the round has to want you to exist, and put forth the effort to facilitate your return. That seems to be quite the barrier of its own! Not everyone remembers to make drones, and that is why there are so many rounds where they do not exist, despite their easy research levels and low cost.

To actually address your point, I am afraid I cannot really refute that completely. An observer or dead player with the "ROLLAN4ANTAG" mindset who knows the AI is rogue would more likely opt to become a posibrain. Traitor Robotisits could likely gain the most benefit from this, as non-antag ones would stop making more borgs once the AI is confirmed rogue. It will obviously result in an increase in silicon counts, but I am shooting mostly for helping with brain shortages. I believe that this would make it a little easier to get an AI installed during low population rounds, or replace lost silicons when things get really hairy.