Dramatic TC cost reductions

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu May 14, 2015 6:18 pm #88145

I'm considering doing it

Traitors with more gear and more leeway to customize their loadouts are happy and strong traitors

I'm planning on dramatically cutting the cost on all the cool stealth stuff so you can pick up several neat utility items along with a weapon (If you need one)

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Thu May 14, 2015 6:21 pm #88146

or just increase the amount of TC really. voted yes, because I don't care how you do it, traitors need more to work with.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu May 14, 2015 6:26 pm #88147

Falamazeer wrote:or just increase the amount of TC really. voted yes, because I don't care how you do it, traitors need more to work with.

This means Nuke guys running around with more fun stuff as well, which frankly considering their winrate I don't see a problem with. It sounds really fun to be a nuke op with a champroj and some other stuff to outwit and outplay people.

Celdur · Post by **Celdur** » Thu May 14, 2015 6:41 pm #88151

Maybe there should be some point differance between jobs.
Some jobs have plenty of stuff on their own and don't really need that many points.

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Thu May 14, 2015 7:21 pm #88156

It could also perhaps be handled based on the number of players there are? If there's a crew of 60 and 6-7 traitors, you'll probably need all the help you can get when you inevitably get escape alone.

onleavedontatme · Thu May 14, 2015 8:44 pm

I don't think nuke ops really need more toys. They're already very well equipped to the point that nuke ops losing more relies on them playing terribly than the station doing anything right.

I don't think 50% of nuke rounds need to end in detonation either. It's already one of the least fun/most pointless rounds for the average civilian job. You set up your workspace and the shuttle is either called or the station nuked, without you actually being able to interact with the antags in any meaningful way, wasting 20-30 minutes of whatever you were doing.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri May 15, 2015 4:55 am #88285

My god those poll results

Kor is honestly right though so heres my plan:
- Give Traitor uplinks more TC
- Rebalance costs accordingly (Heavy duty shitter destroyer items [see: beacon bombs] will have their cost amped up to ensure we don't see ridiculous and downright unfun stuff)

Ideally this avoids buffing nuke

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri May 15, 2015 5:23 am #88286

Just do what we did last time - double the points and double everything's cost, and then work from there.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri May 15, 2015 8:53 am

No, double the points and double the cost of everything in the "weapons" section. Leave the rest alone.

20 soaps with 20C4 attatched, here we come!

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri May 15, 2015 9:01 am #88310

The whole reason we doubled the amount and price of TC's was to allow us more freedom in changing the price of items. In fact I've been advocating to convert the Wizards spells into a similar system to allow us to price Wizard powers more appropiatly (A smoke spell is just as expensive as a gibbing spell)

But I digress, either doubling the starting TC's, or halving the cost of all traitor equipment (barring one or two overt items) would be a good move.

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Fri May 15, 2015 6:46 pm #88369

In support, but don't make it so outstandingly overpowered, that every traitor carrys a full cham/esword/ebow/minibomb/minibomb/revolver/stetchkin w/ silencer combo.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri May 15, 2015 6:49 pm #88370

I'm probably going to make the stupid shit like bombs/revolver slightly more costly, but the stealth gear WAY cheaper

I think traitors in maint killing people to assume their identity is awesome

Traitor being strong stealth is good, traitor being strong shootbangs not as good or IMO in the spirit of the game mode (Leave that to DA)

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Fri May 15, 2015 7:45 pm #88377

Kinda conflicted on this TBH. Like, I agree that traitors feel underpowered right now.
But I don't feel like it was always that way? So somewhere along the line they lost their mojo but if we just buff all their stuff now in response, instead of looking at why they're not as scary anymore, then it's just powercreep.

I think https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3597 this thread brought up a lot of good points and if we're going to try and "fix" traitor then I think we should focus on that sort of solution instead of taking the easy way out and just throwing TC at the problem.

LNGLY · Post by **LNGLY** » Fri May 15, 2015 8:55 pm #88392

Cheridan wrote:Kinda conflicted on this TBH. Like, I agree that traitors feel underpowered right now.
But I don't feel like it was always that way? So somewhere along the line they lost their mojo but if we just buff all their stuff now in response, instead of looking at why they're not as scary anymore, then it's just powercreep.

I think https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3597 this thread brought up a lot of good points and if we're going to try and "fix" traitor then I think we should focus on that sort of solution instead of taking the easy way out and just throwing TC at the problem.

Traitor as it was imagined wasn't built to be able to cope with assistants running through maint constantly, ~70 pop rounds, etc

The change which added random loot to maint really hurt traitors a lot, and high pop does as well.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Fri May 15, 2015 9:07 pm #88395

Well doesn't it seem silly that a single assistant stumbling onto you is so devastating? People have discussed things like no assistant maint, no common radio channel, no SecHUDs which would help traitors but they never happen because too many people like the convenience those things add even if they're balance/design issues.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri May 15, 2015 11:47 pm #88429

No sechuds would make playing sec a bloody nightmare, since you can't even ID a guy running down the corridor half the time.

Assistants have no reason to have maint access, the server was great when they didn't have the access, and if we do the proposed TC change, we can make the agent card even cheaper, which gives maint access by default.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

lumipharon wrote:No sechuds would make playing sec a bloody nightmare, since you can't even ID a guy running down the corridor half the time.

That's what the 'Shift' key is for, lumi.
And if they don't have their ID card on, stun, cuff and stripsearch on the spot for being suspiscious in Code Blue.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat May 16, 2015 10:53 am #88488

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
lumipharon wrote:No sechuds would make playing sec a bloody nightmare, since you can't even ID a guy running down the corridor half the time.
That's what the 'Shift' key is for, lumi.
And if they don't have their ID card on, stun, cuff and stripsearch on the spot for being suspiscious in Code Blue.

It's really, really, not always possible to examine someone running down a corridor. Some people are quite quick, shift-click needs to be vastly more precise than sechud, it's just far harder. Witness how many security officers miss with taser shots, where you only need to click in the right direction, and then realise that you're asking all sec players to be more accurate than that on clicking half a tile, regularly.

Plus how am I going to remember the names of around 10 people who are wanted in the round? I might get 5 if I'm lucky.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

If you have 10 wanted people at once in a round, you're probbably dealing with a gang/revolution and should be declaring martial law.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat May 16, 2015 9:21 pm #88578

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:If you have 10 wanted people at once in a round, you're probbably dealing with a gang/revolution and should be declaring martial law.

It's not that unusual. Greytiders, traitors, and the occasional innocent person wrongly set to arrest all add up, especially if you have about 60 people on the station. Maybe security should declare martial law and crack down more often, and they'd probably need to without sechuds, but I'm not sure it's the solution to what is currently a fairly standard event.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun May 17, 2015 12:49 am #88612

If you're telling me you can shift click literally every person who zooms down a corridor past you, to get their name, good for you.

I can't, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect every to be able, or have to do that.

Preamble · Post by **Preamble** » Sun May 17, 2015 2:43 am #88631

Personally I am in favor of keeping sechuds, but nerfing them to only show wanted status. Being able to see what ID everyone is wearing really kills disguises.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Sun May 17, 2015 3:31 am #88635

LNGLY wrote:Traitor as it was imagined wasn't built to be able to cope with assistants running through maint constantly, ~70 pop rounds, etc

The change which added random loot to maint really hurt traitors a lot, and high pop does as well.

Dude, scale TC to population. Less lowpop murderbone, less chance of traitors getting assraped in highpop, everybody wins.

Scones wrote:I'm probably going to make the stupid shit like bombs/revolver slightly more costly, but the stealth gear WAY cheaper

How much do you mean by "WAY cheaper"? No need to be vague. Show us the numbers!

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun May 17, 2015 4:29 am #88653

Why the hell are we discussing removing/nerfing SecHUDs? They are a critical piece of equipment that we've had forever.

I do not think SecHUDs are one of the biggest influences in Sec v Antag interactions. So long as any associated ID bugs are fixed they are fine.

onleavedontatme · Sun May 17, 2015 4:35 pm

How can they be absolutely critical to sec functioning but not a big influence?

How come we have so much talk about "validhunters" if those secHUD is critical to finding/fighting badguys?

We don't (or I don't, and I think we shouldn't) want security to be too effective. We're not designing security to be the best they can be, we're designing security to fit the game as best they can be, which means purposefully giving them weaknesses and blindspots for the badguys to exploit. We're not designing an actual security force that we want to succeed, we want them to have a serious chance of failing, or the game just doesn't work.

We need security to not win 100% of the time. In fact, even for security, the reward for winning too hard is going braindead out of boredom.

Also parapens were a critical part of ling we had for ages, doesn't mean it was fun for anyone but the ling. Disguises have fallen to the wayside because of all the damn costumes and special clothing bits, and sechuds, would be nice to have them as a somewhat viable option again.

Don't think of it as nerfing secHUDs, think of it as buffing disguises.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun May 17, 2015 4:55 pm #88711

Taking away identification systems from security will simply result in security officers being far more aggressive in stopping and searching people than they would normally do prior, as well as making the act of policing even more frustrating than it needs to be, this is due to the simple fact that information is power, and that by taking away a important information tool then security will compensate somehow. By letting security keep their current information tools then they are less incentivized to go aggressive. If anything sechuds are just as much a convenience item as they are a information tool.

Also disguises are very hard to pull off with or without a sechud. Going for a ID-less gasmask will get you instantly stunned and arrested whereas the best disguise is to either have a legtimant reason to wear a mask, which even then does not always work, or to simply avoid public corridors. If you want to buff disguises then give traitors better tools to pull of disguises, hell even a tool that can fool a sechud in not showing a 'arrest' status might be worthwhile as a tool (Say a hat that you can change its appearance that blocks any arrest status from appearing on you).

Of course people have varying degrees of how security should function. Personally I lean towards the idea that one on one encounters with security should be more sided towards the officer in a normal encounter (this is barring ambushes and whatnot) where the onus is on the antag either avoiding or using their biggest advantage (stealth) to take down a officer if need be. That or expending their limited resources in using powerful offensive tools to help tip the balance. That's also why I like the revolver style of antag weapons in that while its a very powerful tool that can dispatch higher level threats (security or the captain), its not a unlimited use resource and you either have to expend more resources to acquire more ammo or to go out of your way to hack and loot materials to produce more ammo.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sun May 17, 2015 5:36 pm #88718

sechuds are fine just fix the fucking SHIT ASS BUGS AROUND THEM

also remove the job icon it serves literally no purpose other than making custom titles look shady - sechuds should detect implants and wanted IMO

onleavedontatme · Sun May 17, 2015 7:42 pm

Steelpoint wrote:where the onus is on the antag either avoiding or using their biggest advantage (stealth) to take down a officer if need be.

How is "stealth" an antags greatest asset when

-The AI exists
-Suits sensors exist
-Helmet cams exist
-Camera alarms exist
-There are sec officers with camera consoles stationed in every department
-Sechuds blow through any disguise
-Sec essentially has access to every area of the station where most jobs are constrained to the brightly lit, highly populated main hallways

You're doing all these theorycrafting about how sec "should be" without regard to how the rest of the game actually functions.

Security

-Outnumbers the antags
-Has rechargable, high capacity, one hit kill weapons
-Has superior communication/ability to coordinate (can always trust other officers, private communication channel)
-Has better information/surveillance (AI, crew monitors, security consoles)
-Has more access
-Has better durability/armor
-Has better conversion mechanics than any of the conversion antags

Traitors are outclassed in every single category by security on an idividual level while simultaneously being outnumbered by them. A revolver is a bad solution for that reason, because you're requiring a single antag type burn all their resources on killing a single guy that isn't even their target when there are 60 people on the station. You talk about taking down a sec officer like they exist in a vacuum, and like planning is going to do anything when the warden happens to be looking at their helmet cam or the AI in your direction.

Single security officers should not be such a hurdle, or we end up with 2 hour rounds and 80% evac rates (with the other 20% being suicides or braindeads)

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Mon May 18, 2015 1:50 am #88819

Steelpoint wrote:Why the hell are we discussing removing/nerfing SecHUDs?

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:08 am #88837

Kor, how often do you actually PLAY sec? Because I really get the feeling that you don't, and are only looking at it through antag eyes.

In most gamemodes save wizard, the antags have about the same population as sec, if not more. This is why sec has AoE weapons, to protect them from greytide.
Sec has no one-hit-kill weapons. There is a stungun, which if you are THAT worried about, get the stim implant.
I will grant superior comms, but that is because sec needs it.
Access is a function of what the HoP has given. Pretty much only main hallway access, maint, and the basics of departmental access if they are assigned to one.
Better intel from AI: Yes, but if you're worried about the AI, the AI detecting multi-tool only costs a pittance of TC. Then you KNOW when the AI is looking.
Has better durability armour: Yes, because they NEED it. Sec needs to be able to face anything from greytide of rev to full on nuke-ops and have at least a chance of success. Armour is part of this.
Better conversion mechanics meaning what? Loyalty implants? Those only work on revs, not any other antag type, so you never KNOW if the assistant you converted and upgraded to part of the sec team is actually loyal to nanotrasen or a traitor weasling his way onto the team.

As for sec having the time to sit in their department and watch cameras? Maybe on Basil, but almost fucking NEVER on sibyl. There is ALWAYS tators to hunt, people to process, figuring out if GriffinMcAssistant is a traitor or just tiding because bored, deathscreams to respond to, and a million other things to do at every point past the first 3 minutes of the round, and during that time, sec is gearing up and getting ready to go still. Departmental access really only matters when it is "Hey, we have reports of guncargo/plasmaflooding/loose slimes, and need to get in." and then sec doesn't have to sit around on their asses waiting for the dead AI, or some member of the cult/rev/traitor department to help them out. Departmental access means that sec isn't useless to respond to cries for help when the AI is dead, subverted, malf, or incompetant.

As for sechuds? They protect against shitcurity. Because without them, sec needs to be assholes just to try and get their jobs done. Yes, I agree that traitors could have more tools for stealth-traitoring (Mission Impossible face-masks anyone?) It would perfectly compliment having a fake ID with agent card.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Mon May 18, 2015 11:15 am #88993

Great response. Also,

-There are sec officers with camera consoles stationed in every department

Isn't true. Science has full camera coverage from the office along with the only easily accessible AI satellite camera link, true. But the other departments are far more patchy. There is no camera console in engineering, no console in medbay (although that department is more visible), and only a mining camera console in cargo. If you want to check the cameras as a security officer, unless you're in science you're vastly better off using the one camera console in the brig's sec office, the one in the warden's office, or the one in the bridge.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Tue May 19, 2015 2:37 am #89254

Can we instead talk about what TC values you'd like to see things get priced at

I'd really like to hear some exact numbers from scones instead of debate on sechuds for some reason

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu May 21, 2015 2:30 pm #89740

Please drop the Syndicate radio chip to 1 TC. I cry a little inside when I drop TC on that to find that no one else bought it, making it useless.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Thu May 21, 2015 2:53 pm #89742

doesnt it also let you listen in on all the other channels?

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu May 21, 2015 3:28 pm #89750

It does, but who communicates in this game?

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Thu May 21, 2015 4:48 pm #89770

Random on the spot suggestion.
Maint is currently the only real place to hide from radiation storms, so it obviously has some kind of shielding / interference.
How about Maint blocks radio chat (Other than stuff like syndicate headsets) unless you're by an open airlock into another area or something?

Sure, it basically means death to be dragged off into maint, but spess is dangerous, yo.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu May 21, 2015 7:17 pm #89791

The problem is that blocking radio chat efficiently is a PITA to code, as far as I understand.

Also, would maint have any effect on helmet/borg cameras?

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Thu May 21, 2015 8:49 pm #89806

DemonFiren wrote:The problem is that blocking radio chat efficiently is a PITA to code, as far as I understand.

Also, would maint have any effect on helmet/borg cameras?

Abductors have items which block radio, correct?
Apply the effect to maint.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri May 22, 2015 6:04 am

Pretty sure the abductor's activated radio damper just turns off all radios nearby.

Incomptinence · Fri May 22, 2015 12:01 pm

Cheridan wrote:Kinda conflicted on this TBH. Like, I agree that traitors feel underpowered right now.
But I don't feel like it was always that way? So somewhere along the line they lost their mojo but if we just buff all their stuff now in response, instead of looking at why they're not as scary anymore, then it's just powercreep.

I think https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3597 this thread brought up a lot of good points and if we're going to try and "fix" traitor then I think we should focus on that sort of solution instead of taking the easy way out and just throwing TC at the problem.

I tried to say the same thing to you about changeling all along. Even more of the same problems traitor has.

Perhaps the probability is just too high for stealth solo antags also. What is the point of a stealthy guy you expect to show up most of the time? I mean they would still rule lowpop either way.

The weapons had a price increase around the time of tc doubling while they are considered too weak I consider it wise not to double down you do want them to use weapons right? The population equation is designed to reduce high pop chaos by having diminishing returns. Traitors are at their best ratio to the population when it the station is worst equiped to fight them leads to murderboners leads to nerfs for all traitors. Then on the high pop side they have their worst showing against staffed security teams and they get to carry all the nerfs and whatnot of lowpop traitor. I know the equation is well intended to reduce chaos but I feel that aiming for a simple ratio without diminishing returns would be a better choice.

How often should a solo antag be expected to pull off a win? I know play to win but winrsare a good indicator of when something is just getting crushed if they hardly ever fulfill their function. I remember on the old stats double agent managed to flat line pretty stably around 20% I believe that should be the bare minimum of what to aim for on solo antagonists. I mean I have said it before if a design is doing worse than antags designed to eliminate themselves that is pretty indicative something is deeply wrong with the antagonist or the expectations placed upon it.

I believe on the other hand group antags/blob should pull off a 40% minimum (exception to gang) since they don't have the one who got away like independent solos do they have to face down a whole station together, do or die.

Exception to wizard great power great responsibility peter potter etc etc.

Amnestik · Post by **Amnestik** » Sat May 23, 2015 3:01 am #89994

I don't know if it's been suggested already because I'm not going to read this entire thread, but telecrystal distribution based on player skill level and/or objective difficulty would be nice. Player skill could be indicated by win/loss ratio of that particular antagonist type, or antagonists in general. Only problem I can see with this is that it might deincentivise going for your objectives, as you get less toys to fuck around with next time, and lead to people murderbonering and causing senseless carnage more instead.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat May 23, 2015 10:45 am #90046

it frustrates me that people just keep saying "ah yes just apply this effect to maint".
a lot of things in the code are very different and rather incompatible.

THAT SAID, having maint block radios is probably actually somewhat possible, but slightly off topic for this thread.

TheNightingale · Sat May 23, 2015 3:32 pm

What if telecrystals and changeling chemical points scaled with the server population? The more people, the more things you get. It's what's done with operatives, I believe?

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun May 24, 2015 3:54 pm #90247

The thing with operatives is that there are only ever 6 operatives. Traitor TCs do not scale, but the amount of traitors does.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun May 24, 2015 4:55 pm #90253

For fluff reasons say that due to maintenance receiving heavy radiation shielding that is interferers with radios. So any radio used in maintenance comes out garbled.

Only special radios, or powerful one's, can break through the shielding. (Deathsquad/ERT, Security, Centcom, Nuke Ops, or special antags)

Do it?