Removing the Head of Personnel

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:56 pm #97655

Now that we have an ID console in each department, the HoP no longer serves any purpose beyond being the most valuable target in certain game modes due to not being implanted with loyalty. It does not manage cargo, it does not manage service, HoP is the job for editing IDs and going rogue with all access. Now that the Heads of each department can edit ID access, the HoP can be removed.

The Captain would inherit all the HoP's responsibilities, which are now considerably sparse. The Quartermaster would become the head of cargo and service does not need the presence of a head.

So,
- Drop the HoP
- Captain becomes the sole job with full ID console access and the manager of service
- Quartermaster becomes a head

Any reasons not to do this, other than "we need a job with all access with no antagonist protection"?

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:03 pm #97656

Yes, lizard quartermasters are the only redeeming factor Cargonia has.

hanshansenhansson · Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:31 pm

I like this. For the sole reason that 80% of the time you can get all-access by hacking into his office and stealing his second ID from the console.

Remie Richards · Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:51 pm

The HoP no longer has a role simply because their role was subverted from under them.
Heads of Staff don't need those consoles, it was a pointless shift of power.

Those consoles should go and the HoP should stay.
Take away the HoP's antag chance (given we have Antags before Jobs these days) if you're concerned about that, but keep the role.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:08 pm #97680

Why shouldn't HoP get antag?

Remie Richards · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:13 pm

iamgoofball wrote:Why shouldn't HoP get antag?

Well at the moment due to their job being removed from under them, they're a High access job with pretty much NO responsibility.
Some people already play HoP for the antag rolls+power, with no responsibility that would only rise.

I just don't want the HoP role to go, It's my most played job by far, and I'd be happy to lose the antag role to keep playing HoP.
It's a role where you get to interact with a lot of people and I enjoy it.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:17 pm #97683

If we removed every job that was made vaguely redundant by someone else we'd only have captains.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:20 pm #97684

The HoP fills a lot of roles and has a lot of responsibilities. He is in charge of changing access, he has the final say over the cargo bay, bar, hydroponics, the clown and mime, the janitor, the chapel, the librarian, and last but certainly not least he is in charge of assistants. He is supposed to take assistants and assign them jobs either by what they want or what the station needs. He is in charge of settling workplace disputes and handling complaints between workers and heads. In general, he is the one who is in charge of the stations living conditions for the crew, which all things considered is a big responsibility.

The problem is that those are his theoretical duties. His actual duties boiled down into sitting at his desk for 10-15 minutes changing IDs before fucking off to God knows where. Now that all the heads have their own ID consoles, his job has effectively been reduced to fucking off to God knows where.

The way I see it, the job doesn't need to be cut as much as it needs to be reimagined. The HoP still has all those other theoretical duties that he's always had, but since most people just want to catch the antags and be done in an hour and a half, HoPs really don't have the time or motivation to care about whether the chef is actually cooking or why the janitor hasn't cleaned a single puddle of blood.

Like I said, the HoP simply needs to be reimagined. He needs a tighter connection to the personnel under him to make him relevant to the station.

TrustyGun · Post by **TrustyGun** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:25 pm #97687

The other head's ID consoles are not big enough to warrant removing the HoP. He is still useful in many situations, such as giving all access when appropriate, and small stuff like giving vacant office access to a clown.

Not only that, he carries an important role where he is the one who secures DAT FUKEN DISK and everything else when the captain is not there, and acts as the captain's right hand man.

besides who else will be the all access traitor the station needs?

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:34 pm

Loonikus wrote:The HoP fills a lot of roles and has a lot of responsibilities. He is in charge of changing access, he has the final say over the cargo bay, bar, hydroponics, the clown and mime, the janitor, the chapel, the librarian, and last but certainly not least he is in charge of assistants. He is supposed to take assistants and assign them jobs either by what they want or what the station needs. He is in charge of settling workplace disputes and handling complaints between workers and heads. In general, he is the one who is in charge of the stations living conditions for the crew, which all things considered is a big responsibility.

The problem is that those are his theoretical duties. His actual duties boiled down into sitting at his desk for 10-15 minutes changing IDs before fucking off to God knows where. Now that all the heads have their own ID consoles, his job has effectively been reduced to fucking off to God knows where.

The way I see it, the job doesn't need to be cut as much as it needs to be reimagined. The HoP still has all those other theoretical duties that he's always had, but since most people just want to catch the antags and be done in an hour and a half, HoPs really don't have the time or motivation to care about whether the chef is actually cooking or why the janitor hasn't cleaned a single puddle of blood.

Like I said, the HoP simply needs to be reimagined. He needs a tighter connection to the personnel under him to make him relevant to the station.

Assistants are not under the HOP any more than they're under the clown, and he's not allowed to hand out departmental access or said heads will beat him senseless. He's not in charge of settling workplace disputes, and will usually be thrown out on his arse if he enters a workplace (Try the lawyer). Cargo barely ever listen to him as a head, and service needs no managing whatsoever.

The HOP as he is exists as
1) all-access for converting antags
2) A backup captain for when there is no captain / captain has been horribly killed.
3) Usually dead

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:41 pm #97694

Hence why I said those are his theoretical duties.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:46 pm #97695

The most relevant question remains unasked: What about Ian?

Incomptinence · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:57 pm

Remove QM scum instead so no one is trying to usurp crapgo bay from glorious hop.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:57 pm #97702

DemonFiren wrote:The most relevant question remains unasked: What about Ian?

Becomes round start job, inherits office as own. Doggy doors installed on all airlocks.

Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:11 pm

I think all the HoP's duties could be safely absorbed by the Captain.

Remie Richards · Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:15 pm

MisterPerson wrote:I think all the HoP's duties could be safely absorbed by the Captain.

The Warden could be absorbed by the HoS
The Librarian by Random Assistants
The Clown by Random Assistants
The Mime by Random Assistants
Botanists by Random Assistants
Roboticists by Scientists
Geneticists by Medical Doctors

There are plenty of jobs that COULD be absorbed by other jobs, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:23 pm #97712

As much as I hate HoPs they're necessary if the Captain is ever going to be able to do his real job of managing the heads.

The HoP's duties can suck up a lot of time, and as a Captain I often feel overwhelmed when I have to do the HoP's job in addition to my own.

Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:26 pm

Here's a thought, how about we leave the HoP as is because ID consoles in people's departments changed basically nothing anyways and regardless HoP is a fine, fully functioning job that we've had for years?

tedward1337 · Post by **tedward1337** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:28 pm #97717

PKPenguin321 wrote:Here's a thought, how about we leave the HoP as is because ID consoles in people's departments changed basically nothing anyways and regardless HoP is a fine, fully functioning job that we've had for years?

HoP is HR
We cant remove HR

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:34 pm #97719

Remove ID consoles from the other heads. That is an amazingly retarded ID because it takes the only thing the HoP is good for other than becoming the owl or divving out all access during cult rounds. Least the bridge console made sense when you put the Warden,CE,RD, and CMO id's in you got ID privs up to their department. Removing the ability for the HoP to nag other heads about job transfers is bad.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

MisterPerson wrote:I think all the HoP's duties could be safely absorbed by the Captain.

:g absorbing the HOP

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:35 pm #97721

How to make the HoP important:

Step 1. Make an economy system and put him in charge of it
Step 2. Give the HoP a console to raise, lower, freeze, and give bonuses to peoples salaries
Step 3. Give him a cargo console in his office that drains funds rather than cargo points
Step 4. Ensure everyone who's job starts under the HoPs authority (except cargo, they have enough to talk about as is) has a headset with Service Channel access (do people even know the service channel exists?) along with the HoP himself.

There. Now there is actually a reason to keep the HoP and he'll be doing more than ever. The HoPs new job is to adjust peoples pay according to their merits. He can go around making sure people are doing their jobs and people might actually listen to him in order to get a raise, which will allow them to make more purchases from vending machines or spend their money at the HoP office to order shit cargo would refuse to spend their precious points on. People could also ask for supplies to be ordered over the service channel.

Tl;dr Change the HoPs job description from "give people access and die horribly" to "try to goad people into working harder so they can afford more supplies for their autism projects or a fancy hat crate."

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:38 pm #97725

I'm not sure how many of you have actually tried using the head ID consoles or if you're just opposing them on principal alone, but it's nowhere near what the HoP's console is capable of.

You can't even change job titles on head consoles.

onleavedontatme · Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:39 pm

>HoP is the job for editing IDs and going rogue with all access

Both important gameplay functions

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:35 pm #97737

Pretty much what Loonikus just said

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:40 pm #97738

Economy system is a no no.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:00 am #97763

ID console access is the only real power the heads have, They shouldn't be removed.

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:58 am #97795

That's like removing energy swords, removing the AI, removing the clown, removing the singulo, removing the escape shuttle, and removing assistants.

Git you some culture, scrub.

DrunkenMatey · Post by **DrunkenMatey** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:03 am #97801

I haven't had a chance to poke at the Head's consoles yet... but my understanding is they can grant or remove access within their area, but cannot be used for job changes. So if a Scientist wants to join sec, the HoS could give that scientist some sec access, but they would still be listed as a scientist. If my understanding is correct then the HoP still has an important role in changing peoples jobs and can now dedicate more time to helping out the captain or checking in on other things.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:51 am #97808

Remove lawyers instead

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:13 am #97878

Get rid of all these alternative ID consoles that have been strewn around the station then. At this rate why bother with a HoP role if we're going to give everyone their own ID Console by the end of next year?

Incomptinence · Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:55 am

Why can't they just be dedicated demotion consoles? Now if someone ever downs the hop or captain the all access genie is IMPOSSIBLE to put back in the bottle.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:57 am #97891

Demotion console solely seem great, I just dislike how we're putting actual ID Console's around the station. I liked the old idea of the only ID Consoles being in the Command section or the arrivals sec checkpoint.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:20 am #97898

HoP: Handles department swaps, all-access, job title changes, etc.
Othe heads: Can give or take access in their own departments as needed, can demote.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:27 am #97899

DrunkenMatey wrote:I haven't had a chance to poke at the Head's consoles yet... but my understanding is they can grant or remove access within their area, but cannot be used for job changes. So if a Scientist wants to join sec, the HoS could give that scientist some sec access, but they would still be listed as a scientist. If my understanding is correct then the HoP still has an important role in changing peoples jobs and can now dedicate more time to helping out the captain or checking in on other things.

Ok, let's give all the heads of staff the ability to set job titles then. Considering they can already set access. It's really silly to have to run all the way over to the HoP's office to get the title on your ID changed instead of doing it at the same time as getting your access changed.

Or remove the local ID consoles, whichever.

Post by **Thunder11** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:30 am #97906

Incomptinence wrote:Why can't they just be dedicated demotion consoles? Now if someone ever downs the hop or captain the all access genie is IMPOSSIBLE to put back in the bottle.

This. At least before there were only four consoles to guard, the the only one that wasn't in a secure area was the arrivals checkpoint. Now every single head office is an all access spreading risk, so there's no way you can cover them all.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:47 am #97930

PKPenguin321 wrote:Here's a thought, how about we leave the HoP as is because ID consoles in people's departments changed basically nothing anyways and regardless HoP is a fine, fully functioning job that we've had for years?

This. Why is the HoP suddenly an issue? I always have fun playing as HoP. You're not just there to deny access to the clown. Check departments if they are workingly correctly, make sure people get along, limit shitcuity/become HOPcurity, open and close job slots according to the situation (Promoted somebody to atmos tech? Then close an atmos tech slot, so you don't end up with four techs. / Teamantag round? Open more sec slots.).
If you think it's just about being an ID monkey and the fake head of supply, you're doing it wrong. The captain doesn't have time for everything minor, that's YOUR job. In like 80% of the rounds with a captain but no HoP, the captain will promote somebody to HoP. For a reason (usually).
And as for the HoP being the 'easy' route to all access for antags: somebody's got to fill that role. Limiting ID computer access to captain only is a bad idea.

The department consoles are for the cases where a worker of a subdepartment wants more access (atmos tech with engi access, detective with brig cells access). You won't see the RD hiring new scientists... and neither will you see him waste his time to give out custom titles. Also, if you think department ID consoles are a 'stealthy' way to get all access, have fun jogging all over the station to get to each department's console.
As far as I understood, department consoles will get more features than just access stuff. And if that turns out to be untrue, I dont see the reason for these consoles. The bridge ID console was doing its job for demotions just fine. But first, let's see where this goes, before we ditch a job that has been around since the dawn of time.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:36 pm #97939

It's suddenly an issue because the departmental ID consoles now exist.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:26 pm #97946

Department ID consoles can't give out all access.

You can't even use the RD's console to edit security access; the RD's console is locked to science access.

A lot of people throwing a fit here is just opposing the idea of it without having actually investigated what it actually does or actually experienced its abuse in game.

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:40 pm #97967

Homogenization is bad.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:53 pm #97969

Ikarrus wrote:Department ID consoles can't give out all access.

You can't even use the RD's console to edit security access; the RD's console is locked to science access.

A lot of people throwing a fit here is just opposing the idea of it without having actually investigated what it actually does or actually experienced its abuse in game.

Yeah. The master ID consoles (or just one) can still exist, the Captain still would have ID console access. It would be harder to get all access if you need a captain's ID first, but easy all access kind of ruins the game a bit in my opinion.

The departmental ID consoles should probably have demote and promote buttons to assign the job descriptions in case a Head wants to hire someone who isn't already working in their department.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:41 pm #98014

Lumbermancer wrote:Homogenization is bad.

*Lottery jackpot sound*

Post by **oranges** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:08 pm #98021

WTF fools, who will be the owlman if we remove the HoP?

TheNightingale · Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:14 pm

And who will look after Ian?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:51 pm #98028

The Lieutenant will.

TheNightingale · Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:58 pm

I like the idea of a Lieutenant; a second in command to the Captain. They should probably have control over IDs as well, just so if the Captain goes missing (or isn't here), someone can hand out access. Their own office near the Bridge, maybe, and they could be the head of personnel departments like Service and Supply?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:02 pm #98031

Or we could drop all pretense and make a second Captain to go greytide alongside the Captain and enjoy the all access and give him a loyalty implant.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:22 pm #98056

oranges wrote:WTF fools, who will be the owlman if we remove the HoP?

The clown, the mime.

That's what I always do anyways.

TheNightingale · Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:40 pm

CosmicScientist wrote:Renaming the HoP to Leftennant is... what why does that make things better?

Lieutenant. It's only pronounced 'leftenant'. It's good because then we can rename the HoS to Commander and have a proper military structure on the station, complete with saluting, press-ups and deck-scrubbing.

Remie Richards · Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:42 pm

Wait, it's NOT pronounced Lou-tenannt?
I swear it is.

otherwise the joke in fallout (Lou Tennant, the Master's Lieutenant) makes no sense.

Awww shit I got it backwards.
The UK pronunciation is Leftenant, the US, Lou-tennant.

Kill the hop