/tg/Station 13

So we had a discussion on Adminbus about the gulag. How it's never used, how it could be better, and how it fits in with Kor's new project.

Then we talked about the idea of re-adding a detached, off-zlevel prison station to hold perma-prisoners. Attaching it to the gulag.

This would come with a number of benefits:

1) We could outfit the new Prison Station with a bunch of cool shit that we couldn't fit onto the cramped station layout. It'd need more automated defenses to make up for a lack of regular human supervision.
2) Free up the space currently occupied by the ugly tumor known as the Prison Wing. Return the brig back to its smaller form.
3) If you ever played the original prison station you know all sorts of fun shit happens there because it tends to have less surveillance. More antagonist opportunities here.
4) The original prison station had problems with traitor security and revolution. Traitor sec is no longer a thing and having it on a different z-level removes it as a battleground for revolution
5) Gulag and Kor's new project gets more use because of the close proximity to the new perma.

Additional design goals would be to make it easy and quick as possible for security to use, but still have vulnerabilities for prepared prisoners or external antagonists to exploit.

Development is planned but will not begin until Kor provides me with some basic files.

Ikarrus wrote:4) The original prison station had problems with traitor security and revolution. Traitor sec is no longer a thing and having it on a different z-level removes it as a battleground for revolution

But this was the best part. Shuttle-loads of revs invading a reinforced prison-station was the coolest shit ever. Oh well.

You want to make sure that people with uplink implants can escape, maybe requiring some combination of emag, toolbox, c4, space suit depending on whether or not they leave by the shuttle (risky!) or space.

Please no easy-access-from-space weapon rechargers or sec closets full of tasers. The old prison station was one of those go-to destinations for free and easy loot and with the recent space-traitor buff they don't need any more perks.

On a side-note: is it possible to make z-level locations that cannot be visited from other z-levels, but can themselves be escaped from?

This sounds really cool. Imagine prison gangs!

Please please yes.
I miss this so godamn much. The terror of being an officer and dragging a potato into the prison station and realizing you are walking into an active armed jailbreak was the single greatest moment of my security career. I still remember seeing Jon Riker standing forlornly outside the door, mop in hand. I had just enough time to wonder where he got it and how he got loose when his buddies wearing orange jumpsuits and a mixmash of officer gear walked up. then the door opened and all fucking hell broke loose.

This being seriously considered makes me rock hard!

So we go from criticising me for adding in a morgue to the brig as trying to make sec their own station, to literally suggesting we give sec their own space station?

Ohhhh snap.
Just read what he was referencing, and you just got SERVED MOFO

But seriously, girls, you're both pretty, How about we put a morgue IN the prison station? Then everyone is happy, especially me.

Perma is where fun goes to die, so I can't imagine that removing it even further from the station could make it any more interesting.

I'm willing to bet that moving it off station will make security less likely to perma people because of the added time investment and inconvenience. Because I observed opposite happen when we merged Prison Station with the regular brig.

But I'm sure this will satisfy certain security players' desire for the personal fortress they've always wanted (I know I do). Only simultaneously more badass and creepier with more room for things to go wrong because that's when this game works the best.

So yeah, they can get a morgue. Or the old mass driver back, whichever is more fun. The thing is we get to go full autist here without cluttering up the station z-level, which is what I hated the security map creep for.

Ikarrus wrote:I'm willing to bet that moving it off station will make security less likely to perma people because of the added time investment and inconvenience. Because I observed opposite happen when we merged Prison Station with the regular brig.

But I'm sure this will satisfy certain security players' desire for the personal fortress they've always wanted (I know I do). Only simultaneously more badass and creepier with more room for things to go wrong because that's when this game works the best.

So yeah, they can get a morgue. Or the old mass driver back, whichever is more fun. The thing is we get to go full autist here without cluttering up the station z-level, which is what I hated the security map creep for.

Things For The Station:

1) Shuttle dock
2) Warden Office (regular security access though, just a cool name)
30 power Source (solars?)
4) Air room, like mining
5) Cafeteria (For hiding in during prison break/stashin' supplies)
6) 4x perma cells
7) 1x perma access
8) 1x prison common room
9) 2x toilets
10) 1x shower
11) 1x garden zone
12) insert idea here

At that point we may as well move security entirely off station and have the northern part of the station be just a small office and a docking port.

That's like, bare-bones fucking minimal for a prison station, Steelpoint (except maybe cafeteria/breakroom)

I mean, the last five entries are all rolled into the current permabrig, except that the shower and toilet are glued together to save space.

Steelpoint wrote:At that point we may as well move security entirely off station and have the northern part of the station be just a small office and a docking port.

What are you even talking about?

Security would still have the normal cells, HoS office, common officer area, equipment room, armory/wardens office, interrogation, and evidence.

I'm just not a fan of a off station security brig or prison station, it takes a lot of the action off the station as well as making it all but impossible for anyone to escape from this new perma.

At least now currently its possible for a really smart person to prepare for being captured or to work their way out, but with a off-station prison who knows if any escape attempt will be possible.

Also, why was the original prison station removed in the first place? Better to know why so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

Steelpoint wrote:I'm just not a fan of a off station security brig or prison station, it takes a lot of the action off the station as well as making it all but impossible for anyone to escape from this new perma.

At least now currently its possible for a really smart person to prepare for being captured or to work their way out, but with a off-station prison who knows if any escape attempt will be possible.

Also, why was the original prison station removed in the first place? Better to know why so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

1) Private murderfort for traitor sec was awful. A traitor warden meant anyone brought in for any crime would go missing/get spaced from said fort.

2) It made rev last for fucking ever if heads had a fort to retreat to. No longer an issue if the station is on another Z level.

I don't think taking action off station is bad either. A lot of the problems we have right now regarding balance and surveillance and stealth and such are because we're all stuck in a very rigid, small map with a lot of people who have all played that map hundreds of times. We could stand to spread out a little bit.

I think this could be very interesting. I've always wondered if I could convert derelict into a prison station of some sort. Usually I just execute perma prisoners because perma is so bland for everybody involved (and for the public spectacle). However, I would want it sort of attached to the station like the toxins test site. An off z-level prison would be too much. As a frequent HoS, I think there are a lot of cool things that could be done with this.

Kor wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:I'm just not a fan of a off station security brig or prison station, it takes a lot of the action off the station as well as making it all but impossible for anyone to escape from this new perma.

At least now currently its possible for a really smart person to prepare for being captured or to work their way out, but with a off-station prison who knows if any escape attempt will be possible.

Also, why was the original prison station removed in the first place? Better to know why so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

1) Private murderfort for traitor sec was awful. A traitor warden meant anyone brought in for any crime would go missing/get spaced from said fort.

2) It made rev last for fucking ever if heads had a fort to retreat to. No longer an issue if the station is on another Z level.

I don't think taking action off station is bad either. A lot of the problems we have right now regarding balance and surveillance and stealth and such are because we're all stuck in a very rigid, small map with a lot of people who have all played that map hundreds of times. We could stand to spread out a little bit.

1. If security was shit and didn't bother to keep track of anything yeah.

2. True, though it also made some rev rounds end in an epic confrontation as you have security and the heads make their final stands against the coming rev shuttle tide. One of the best rounds I ever had on this server ended in such a conflict. The Captain and the Final Rev head fist fighting amongst the corpses of the combatants as the last two men standing on the station (apart from braindeads, but that doesn't count). Just because some rounds were shitty doesn't mean it didn't make some rounds truly memorable.

But if the prison station is off the station's z-level then if all the heads of staff or rev heads move there then they are considered to be off the station z-level and thus they would lose the round.

So unless the station is on the station's level, then the prison station will have little effect on a rev round, the only real effect it would have is either where the defeated rev heads are pushed off to or where the last one or two members of security go and hide while the reved crew hunt down the last surviving head.

Steelpoint wrote:But if the prison station is off the station's z-level then if all the heads of staff or rev heads move there then they are considered to be off the station z-level and thus they would lose the round.

So unless the station is on the station's level, then the prison station will have little effect on a rev round.

And even if it is on the same z-level, it's not like acquiring EVA gear is that hard if sec is fucked.

Steelpoint wrote:But if the prison station is off the station's z-level then if all the heads of staff or rev heads move there then they are considered to be off the station z-level and thus they would lose the round.

So unless the station is on the station's level, then the prison station will have little effect on a rev round, the only real effect it would have is either where the defeated rev heads are pushed off to or where the last one or two members of security go and hide while the reved crew hunt down the last surviving head.

I'd honestly just keep it on the station Z-Level.

Hell for the vast majority of rev rounds most of the heads are blitz killed within a few minutes and the brig gets multi-bombed soon after.

I'm not really a fan of gulag *because* it requires shuttles to get there. I'm not sure this would be any better.

Perma needs to be easy to do, relatively easy to secure, and relatively fast. At the moment, it's all those things. AS a bonus, it's easy to defend and not impossible to escape from.

This would be way more dangerous for officers (no knowing what's on the other side in wait, unless you use cameras, and if those have been smashed I might as well just execute people), way harder to defend in the event of an outbreak, and just way less functional as a prison than the perma wing currently is. People seem to want it for nostalgia reasons, but if you want a more functional perma, this isn't the way to do it. I would be less inclined to use this as a security player and more inclined to execute people (would the execution room be kept stationside?).

People have said perma is where fun goes to die. That's the point. If perma doesn't work, there's no reason to use it. If I'm only going to see the same people pop back on the station or attacking me when I go to see this prison satellite, I'm not going to want to use it.

Cheimon wrote:I'm not really a fan of gulag *because* it requires shuttles to get there. I'm not sure this would be any better.

Perma needs to be easy to do, relatively easy to secure, and relatively fast. At the moment, it's all those things. AS a bonus, it's easy to defend and not impossible to escape from.

What's wrong with shuttles?

Why does perma need to be "easy to do", it's meant to be the last resort. If anything an isolated station would be easier to escape from with assistance because of the lack of security presence.

This would be way more dangerous for officers (no knowing what's on the other side in wait, unless you use cameras, and if those have been smashed I might as well just execute people), way harder to defend in the event of an outbreak, and just way less functional as a prison than the perma wing currently is. People seem to want it for nostalgia reasons, but if you want a more functional perma, this isn't the way to do it. I would be less inclined to use this as a security player and more inclined to execute people (would the execution room be kept stationside?).

Okay so make sure the station is staffed while in use, It's perfectly functional if you use it as intended for god sake.

If you make the easiest option for security to deal with prisoners is to execute them then security will do just that.

We have a long history of convoluted and poorly designed areas meant to hold prisoners not being used because they are not reliable. Security can use perma, and be of content mind it will work, because it is reliable to use and is not easy to break out of.

The old gulag never saw any usage at all because of just that, it was unreliable and could be broken out of. The amount of time and effort it would take to secure the gulag (and likely get a bwoink from a admin on the basis of metagaming) meant it was far easier to just use perma.

Steelpoint wrote:If you make the easiest option for security to deal with prisoners is to execute them then security will do just that.

We have a long history of convoluted and poorly designed areas meant to hold prisoners not being used because they are not reliable. Security can use perma, and be of content mind it will work, because it is reliable to use and is not easy to break out of.

The old gulag never saw any usage at all because of just that, it was unreliable and could be broken out of. The amount of time and effort it would take to secure the gulag (and likely get a bwoink from a admin on the basis of metagaming) meant it was far easier to just use perma.

So perhaps try to solve the problem instead of completely throwing the idea out?

Steelpoint wrote:But if the prison station is off the station's z-level then if all the heads of staff or rev heads move there then they are considered to be off the station z-level and thus they would lose the round.

So unless the station is on the station's level, then the prison station will have little effect on a rev round, the only real effect it would have is either where the defeated rev heads are pushed off to or where the last one or two members of security go and hide while the reved crew hunt down the last surviving head.

The point was that was why it was removed, since i'm pretty sure back then Abadoning The Station didn't count as a dead head.

I think there should be a clear rational behind this. Not that it's a bad idea but just so we can have a reasonable time discussing it.

Why will it not have the same problems the gulag?

What benefit will it have over perma?

How will this change an officers round? How will it change a traitors?

In any case I think if it does go in, it needs to go on the same z-level. Cramped as it may be there's still a ton of room on box. It's like 65 tiles from the top to the edge of the z-level and even further from the top right of the station. We could even move the entire station down and left a few tiles to free up room. Keeping it on station keeps it better tied into the round. I think we should work to prevent taking the spotlight off the main round. If you make an off z-level area engaging and fun (which is normally a good thing) it'll draw players out of the main action which is the actual round type being played. This is especially bad if it draws the main players in the round, Sec and Traitors,

The main difference a prison station will make is that taking someone to perma will take longer than it does currently.

Tornadium wrote:
What's wrong with shuttles?

Why does perma need to be "easy to do", it's meant to be the last resort. If anything an isolated station would be easier to escape from with assistance because of the lack of security presence.

Okay so make sure the station is staffed while in use, It's perfectly functional if you use it as intended for god sake.

Shuttles are worse because they're slower to use, they're outright dangerous if they're summoned at the wrong time, and the distance between the station and the satellite means you get no sight or hearing of potential problems. You've also got no idea what you're getting into and it's more of a fiddle to set up prisoner transport with them (you have to buckle everyone up instead of, well, just moving them through a door).

Perma needs to be 'easy to do' because if it gets harder to do, security will just kill people more often and hide the bodies instead. Perma is not supposed to be the last resort, it is supposed to be the first, most humane, and easiest of the capital punishments. That's because it brings a chance of escape/further gameplay, while execution doesn't (other than ghost roles that are available to anyone). Cyborgization is a separate thing that's not always available, though that offers further play too.

Breaking out is probably easier from isolated space, but getting back to the station isn't. That's really what I meant. In any case, you say in one breath that it's easier because security won't be there, and in the next say that if security want to use this, they ought to just keep someone there full time.

That immediately makes it less functional than perma. If one prison is secure without a staff member permanently there, and another prison isn't secure without a staff member there, then the prison that doesn't require staffing is a more useful prison. It's hardly "perfectly" functional if it requires extra effort, is it? It's sub-optimal. Besides, half the time the warden isn't in his office: how often do you think a prison officer will be there to look after the place? Security quite often needs its manpower elsewhere, if the prison requires staffing to be safe then security will just proceed with executions.

Cheimon wrote:

Tornadium wrote:
What's wrong with shuttles?

Why does perma need to be "easy to do", it's meant to be the last resort. If anything an isolated station would be easier to escape from with assistance because of the lack of security presence.

Okay so make sure the station is staffed while in use, It's perfectly functional if you use it as intended for god sake.

Shuttles are worse because they're slower to use, they're outright dangerous if they're summoned at the wrong time, and the distance between the station and the satellite means you get no sight or hearing of potential problems. You've also got no idea what you're getting into and it's more of a fiddle to set up prisoner transport with them (you have to buckle everyone up instead of, well, just moving them through a door).

Perma needs to be 'easy to do' because if it gets harder to do, security will just kill people more often and hide the bodies instead. Perma is not supposed to be the last resort, it is supposed to be the first, most humane, and easiest of the capital punishments. That's because it brings a chance of escape/further gameplay, while execution doesn't (other than ghost roles that are available to anyone). Cyborgization is a separate thing that's not always available, though that offers further play too.

Breaking out is probably easier from isolated space, but getting back to the station isn't. That's really what I meant. In any case, you say in one breath that it's easier because security won't be there, and in the next say that if security want to use this, they ought to just keep someone there full time.

That immediately makes it less functional than perma. If one prison is secure without a staff member permanently there, and another prison isn't secure without a staff member there, then the prison that doesn't require staffing is a more useful prison. It's hardly "perfectly" functional if it requires extra effort, is it? It's sub-optimal. Besides, half the time the warden isn't in his office: how often do you think a prison officer will be there to look after the place? Security quite often needs its manpower elsewhere, if the prison requires staffing to be safe then security will just proceed with executions.

Perma is more serious (taken-out-of-round-wise) and less easy to escape than an execution and spacing, because medbay always clone husked corpses found floating on the exterior hull, whilst nobody except a metafriend or a really stupid antag is going to bust you out of perma. (Unless you're a cult/rev/gang)

Tornadium wrote:

Cheimon wrote:I'm not really a fan of gulag *because* it requires shuttles to get there. I'm not sure this would be any better.

Perma needs to be easy to do, relatively easy to secure, and relatively fast. At the moment, it's all those things. AS a bonus, it's easy to defend and not impossible to escape from.

What's wrong with shuttles?

Why does perma need to be "easy to do", it's meant to be the last resort. If anything an isolated station would be easier to escape from with assistance because of the lack of security presence.

The problem with the shuttles is that the Gulag currently is completely and utterly terribly designed, I mean fucking hell - the shuttle cockpit docks to the air lock that goes right into the middle of the prisoner bit of the gulag station, and the airlocks are zero access!

So theres no problems with the shuttle persay, the old prison station we got to via shuttle and we didn't have problems because it wasn't designed by a mouth breathing mongoloid crackbaby.

I approve of this idea

I've got nothing better to do so...

The most important first part about any prison station, in my opinion, is how you get their with your prisoners in tow, meaning how well designed is your shuttle and processing port?

Here's my initial shuttle design, the idea is that if your a officer you don't need to go through the prisoner part of the station to get to the security part, and vice versa.



EDIT: Alternative designs.

I can only find two references of prior prison station designs.

This one which is, I think, a very old design we used to use
Then this one which is based of the mars outpost map, its in the bottom left corner.

Steelpoint wrote:I can only find two references of prior prison station designs.

This one which is, I think, a very old design we used to use

Spoiler:

Then this one which is based of the mars outpost map, its in the bottom left corner.

Spoiler:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/6872/m ... t42map.jpg

Does the prison station need to be separated by a shuttle though? What about a large bridge between the prison sub-station and the brig with checkpoints at both ends?

I believe goon has something like this and the bridge is retractable.

Then what's the point of a prison station if we're just going to extend perma out by about 20 meter's?

The first one was my favorite, though there were issues, namely it being an every round loot point. I remember one round to non-antag meta buddies broke in and ambushed me for no raisens, jim the space-bastard and larry spacerapist, then they lied in ahelp saying I was beating my prisoner feh.

I always thought it would be kinda cool to separate the armory into two parts, lasers, tasers, shotguns, ablative and flashbangs on station, and then the riot gear up there, so the riot armor, (Collapsable would make more sense)batons, and riot shields. on prison station.

Steelpoint wrote:Then what's the point of a prison station if we're just going to extend perma out by about 20 meter's?

I'm not talking 20 meters. I'm talking distance from bottom of engi to bridge and adding the retractable bridge.

Basic idea of what my interpretation of the prison station would be.

I'd be okay with it if you could somehow get back without using the shuttle and without relying on Traitor equip or Ling abilities. But make it risky and dangerous, like maybe the Syndicakes preparing a breakout cache ahead of time for their operatives but it's surrounded by robust critters and there's only one so once it's gone, it's gone.

Let's be honest, outside of getting lucky with cargo roulette - no one has Uplink implants because they only give you 10 TC. That's enough for maybe breaking out of prison, but re-infiltrating the station will be pretty impossible since you're usually out of TCs now and you're a known escaped prisoner. The only way of re-infiltrating is to prepare massively ahead of time with a UE, ID card, mirror/shaver and clothes. And getting the ID and UE will require you to have messed about in genetics and gotten either the Cap's or HoP's ID. Or an Agent card but that's 9 TC down and you can only get a sleepy pen/C4/Soap/AI Detector/RP items now.

Of course, this relies on you not using ANY traitor items during the entire round since you need every last TC for breaking out, which makes the Uplink implant somewhat situational unless getting caught was a part of your plan because you're a big guy for security.

Steelpoint, please.

We've had a prison station before so we already have experience with how it plays out. You should check with those who were around back then to get a better idea before throwing out unproven theories on how it may or may not work.

And I have no idea where you're getting these other "Prison Station" references from. The one we used was this:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/831776/Brig03.png

And FYI the new prison station will likely be built integrated into the gulag and Kor's new WIP project.

Ikarrus wrote:Steelpoint, please.

We've had a prison station before so we already have experience with how it plays out. You should check with those who were around back then to get a better idea before throwing out unproven theories on how it may or may not work.

And I have no idea where you're getting these other "Prison Station" references from. The one we used was this:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/831776/Brig03.png

And FYI the new prison station will likely be built integrated into the gulag and Kor's new WIP project.

Use a massive bridge instead of a shuttle.

Most prison station's seem built around a similar concept of a central area for prisoners where the outer area is kept for security only. Just giving my own interpretation of the design, though if someone else was already designing one I wish they spoke up.

Development is planned but will not begin until Kor provides me with some basic files.

Like I said, this will be built around some new features coming down the line soon. We don't know exactly what kind of facilities are needed until the basics become more developed.

I just wanted to check with you guys to hear what you thought, and maybe what kind of things you would like, or not like, to see repeated again.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
Perma is more serious (taken-out-of-round-wise) and less easy to escape than an execution and spacing, because medbay always clone husked corpses found floating on the exterior hull, whilst nobody except a metafriend or a really stupid antag is going to bust you out of perma. (Unless you're a cult/rev/gang)

Well sure, it's easier to escape if the officer fucking throws you out an airlock, but that's because tossing corpses out of an airlock is an idiot move. Any competent officer will lock the body in an appropriate locker, not bloody toss it into space. Remove the brain if you're feeling fancy. Or give the body to the chef, that's an option too. I don't know anyone that spaces those they execute regularly, and if they do it, they're doing things horribly wrong.

A not-retarded execution is more serious than perma. Which should be obvious.

I always stuck my executed corpses in the contraband locker, because traitor fags are illegal.

Then gulag came about, now I just shoot them and dump them in the sand.

Malkevin wrote:I always stuck my executed corpses in the contraband locker, because traitor fags are illegal.

Then gulag came about, now I just shoot them and dump them in the sand.

Should put a firing squad post in the sand that you can tie people to.

And an electric chair room
And an lethal injection room

Oh, and a gas chamber

Malkevin wrote:

This isn't the first time I've seen you post this picture, and each time I'm bugged by the fact we're expected to accept that this elaborate setup has been created for an event that lasts about 20 seconds and isn't that impressive to begin with.

Express your supposed power and superiority in a more convincing way, please.

Plus look at those lonely, empty chairs. Those are all your friends. You have more chairs empty than filled there.

I feel obligated to mention that this is a drunk post.

I'm still the only HoS I know of who pulls out the firing squad.

Seriously, if you want a showy execution, that's the way to do it

You're supposed to keep executions subtle. Pulling out a firing squad is like asking the AI to hate you.

Also holy shit, the Law Office hasn't changed one bit in all those years has it.

Amnestik wrote:This isn't the first time I've seen you post this picture, and each time I'm bugged by the fact we're expected to accept that this elaborate setup has been created for an event that lasts about 20 seconds and isn't that impressive to begin with.

Express your supposed power and superiority in a more convincing way, please.

Plus look at those lonely, empty chairs. Those are all your friends. You have more chairs empty than filled there.

I feel obligated to mention that this is a drunk post.

Troll harder cum stain, I'd like to see what contraptions you've come up with.

Its a gas chamber thats completely reuseable without having to suck the plasma back to Atmos and then ask them to give you a refilled canister, other people have found it impressive.

Whats the chairs got to do with anything?
They're empty because this is a mock up I had to do on an offline server, because the three times I tried building it on the live server everytime I'd just about finished it the shuttle was called.

Really, you're just coming across as a retard - and unless you're a ruski its far too early in the day to be drunk, sounds like you have some major personal issues you should try resolving before annoying people with weak bait.