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Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:31 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
So, with some recent buffs to nuke ops, including making the standard ammo a shotgun slug and the horror that is the biotoxins dart (instantly down and asleep, and almost certain to get a heart attack), I've realised that the Bulldog, the standard shotgun that nukers get has in fact become extremely powerful. You almost never see people take other weapons, with the exception of an occasional L6 saw for the near-bottomless ammo capacity (it even does less damage) and the assault rifle, for its grenade launcher.
In order to maybe remedy that, I'd like to propose returning the CR-20 as the standard, basic weapon, and letting them buy the bulldog, relatively cheaply (or not cheaply).
Please discuss!
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:51 pm
by Amelius
CR-20 as standard equipment. Nuke op winrates are toilet-tier.
That, or make standard equipment vary with population. CR-20 if you have say, more than 40 people on-station. Lower than that, sketchkins.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:13 pm
by Steelpoint
I honestly enjoyed it more when C20r SMG's were standard issue, now I have to spend 14 TC's to get one and that's assuming the team allows me to buy one.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:55 pm
by DemonFiren
The C-20r is fucking iconic. It, along with the hardsuit, are the two items that spell "GET DAT FUKKEN DISK" like nothing else.
Oh, and gameplay balance reasons, too. Give 'em.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:33 pm
by Saegrimr
SMG tacticool as fuck. The shotguns were cool but meh, seemed more of a specialization type thing.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:35 pm
by Scott
Why not let each operative choose their standard weapon?
Also everybody starts with a stetchkin already.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:50 pm
by Scones
Enables eshield mass purchases, and there are only 4 weapons on the station that can fight those outside of melee stun showdowns
Just a point, don't feel strongly either way.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:29 pm
by invisty
IMO give all op uplinks a second type of purchasing token that can be exchanged for one free projectile weapon (ebow/minibow/revolver/stechkin/c20r/bulldog).
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:33 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
CosmicScientist wrote:Why not give them enough TCs to make an independent choice of which primary they want rather than giving them a primary they may not even use?
All I understand is that the bulldog got balanced to be as good as the other guns (that you need to buy) because friendly fire incidents (or just buckshot mechanics in general) were apparently terrible enough to warrant buffing with free and relatively decent ammunition.
I'd be in favour of putting all primaries onto the telecrystal shopping list (none in the lockers) and make the C-20r the best and simplest all rounder and very explicitly advertised for newer Nuke Ops to use if you want that iconic shine to stay OR even removing all but ONE bulldog in the lockers, reverting it to buckshot as I believe we can't have guns spawning without ammunition (with better mechanics? Did the spread and everything get fixed?) and leaving it as a IT'S FREE, PLEASE DO NOT GIVE THIS TWO/THREE SHOT AMMUNITION AND ACCEPT THAT YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO NOT SHOOT YOUR TEAMMATES MAYBE.
The reason that taking away nuke op kit and giving them more TCs doesnt work that great is that it makes it easier for fluke ops to waste all the TC on a mech and a borg and five emags.
It's possible to make guns spawn without ammo I believe, by having the new() delete the magazine
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:41 pm
by Scones
Ebow is restricted from operatives for a very good reason.
>five emags/borg/mech is bad
What planet are you living on?
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:46 am
by lumipharon
The different guns have varying levels of potency.
Over all I would say that currently it's:
C20<Bulldog<m90<SAW, with the sprayer somewhere in there also.
My suggest would be to have the ops spawn with only the stetchkin, but allow EACH uplink to spawn ONE primary weapon.
Each weapon would have their own (comparatively) low cost. hell, it would even be possible to have certain guns GIVE tc's, if they're not strong, but to preserve TC balance.
This system is better then simply giving the ops more tc's, since that just leads to shitty mech/borg spam which is extremely boring and uninteresting (if effective).
So as an example with nmbers out my ass, you could buy a c20 for 5tc, or a SAW for 25tc, or if you think guns are for scrubs, there could be a dual e-sword option for 0tc. Which ever option you choose, the others become greyed out, an your tc balance is updated to reflect your change.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:51 pm
by CPTANT
Scones wrote:Ebow is restricted from operatives for a very good reason.
Which is?
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:08 pm
by RG4
CPTANT wrote:Scones wrote:Ebow is restricted from operatives for a very good reason.
Which is?
Formerly a weapon with:
Infinite Ammo
Unlimited Range
Quiet and displays no hit message
unavoidable stun + tox damage.
Now give that to 5 Ops each with an energy shields, all they need to do is spam it down the halls.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:15 pm
by CPTANT
RG4 wrote:CPTANT wrote:Scones wrote:Ebow is restricted from operatives for a very good reason.
Which is?
Formerly a weapon with:
Infinite Ammo
Unlimited Range
Quiet and displays no hit message
unavoidable stun + tox damage.
Now give that to 5 Ops each with an energy shields, all they need to do is spam it down the halls.
Costs 12 IC, DOESN'T KILL, weaker stun than a taser, has to recharge shots.
Its a pretty piss poor weapon compared to the 1 burst crit stuff that they can buy. You aren't seriously suggesting it is OP are you?
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:51 pm
by RG4
CPTANT wrote:RG4 wrote:CPTANT wrote:Scones wrote:Ebow is restricted from operatives for a very good reason.
Which is?
Formerly a weapon with:
Infinite Ammo
Unlimited Range
Quiet and displays no hit message
unavoidable stun + tox damage.
Now give that to 5 Ops each with an energy shields, all they need to do is spam it down the halls.
Costs 12 IC, DOESN'T KILL, weaker stun than a taser, has to recharge shots.
Its a pretty piss poor weapon compared to the 1 burst crit stuff that they can buy. You aren't seriously suggesting it is OP are you?
You
Cost 12 TC
Can kill very easily
Unlimited range stun with toxin damage
Self recharges aka it has unlimited ammo.
It may not crit like a CR20,Bulldog,L6,M90 but it's one of the most robust traitor weapons due in part of those traits. IIRC it does 10 Tox damage per ebow shot and it holds 6 shots but constantly refills those shots. Give it to 5 Nuke Ops, any decent Ops team that isn't full of idiots and you can see the station fall with relative ease. You serverly underestimate the power of the old-ebow before Pap or whoever's shitty nerf of it, one person alone would ebow/sword combo the entire station if they were robust enough, the 10 tox damage is more than enough to kill people believe me I've done it before.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:05 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
RG4 wrote:CPTANT wrote:RG4 wrote:CPTANT wrote:Scones wrote:Ebow is restricted from operatives for a very good reason.
Which is?
Formerly a weapon with:
Infinite Ammo
Unlimited Range
Quiet and displays no hit message
unavoidable stun + tox damage.
Now give that to 5 Ops each with an energy shields, all they need to do is spam it down the halls.
Costs 12 IC, DOESN'T KILL, weaker stun than a taser, has to recharge shots.
Its a pretty piss poor weapon compared to the 1 burst crit stuff that they can buy. You aren't seriously suggesting it is OP are you?
You
Cost 12 TC
Can kill very easily
Unlimited range stun with toxin damage
Self recharges aka it has unlimited ammo.
It may not crit like a CR20,Bulldog,L6,M90 but it's one of the most robust traitor weapons due in part of those traits. IIRC it does 10 Tox damage per ebow shot and it holds 6 shots but constantly refills those shots. Give it to 5 Nuke Ops, any decent Ops team that isn't full of idiots and you can see the station fall with relative ease. You serverly underestimate the power of the old-ebow before Pap or whoever's shitty nerf of it, one person alone would ebow/sword combo the entire station if they were robust enough, the 10 tox damage is more than enough to kill people believe me I've done it before.
Didnt the old ebow have a 6-shot capacity, at which point you'd have to wait like 30 seconds for it to fully reload? How do you kill with that reliably?
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:15 pm
by onleavedontatme
It stuns as long as a taser does.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:17 pm
by Scones
15 tox, pretty easy to kill with, stun, silent, pocketable
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:08 pm
by RG4
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
Didnt the old ebow have a 6-shot capacity, at which point you'd have to wait like 30 seconds for it to fully reload? How do you kill with that reliably?
6 shots and it had like a recharge time of 2-5 seconds so basically you can run and gun with it very easily. Also 10 tox per bolt.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:02 pm
by leibniz
I had an idea a few years ago:
Nuke ops should spawn with a "Gun Selector".
When they use the item, a menu pops up, allowing them to spawn one from some listed guns for free. (the list in the poll is good enough, gold deagle is missing though)
And maybe 2 compatible magazines with it.
This way people can just choose what they like.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:17 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
As it is, the Deagle is just a Bulldog which cant load stuns.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:04 pm
by DemonFiren
Nuke ops should have the choice of a silver or tacticool deagle. Gold deagle is way too pretty.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:08 am
by SkipsPro
should just give the team leader a choice of team weapon loadouts.
maybe option 1: 5x cr20s
option 2: 3 cr20's 2 bulldogs
option 3: 1 SAW 4 stetchkins
I dunno maybe something like that. obv the weapon choices arent completely balanced but yeah
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:41 pm
by Steelpoint
There are a few ways forward I can envision.
1:) Give Nuke Ops a sort of weapon locker and each operative a weapon voucher that lets them select a single gun for free (barring the L60).
2:) Keep Bulldogs as standard issue but tone down the power of the extra ammo
3:) Make C20r's standard issue and remove the Bulldog's from the ship.
What do you think we should do?
E: The biggest problem with the weapon voucher system is that it means we're giving nuke ops a extra 16 or so telecrystals for free, even if you do argue the Bulldog's more powerful and is already free.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:01 pm
by Gun Hog
Give them more TC, let THEM choose their weapons. And if they want to spend in on a mech/borgs/useless joke items, it is on them. So they just get the worthless pistols as a hint to say "buy a better gun."
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:08 pm
by Steelpoint
My only concern is making low pop ops even more powerful than they already are. From the stats page low pop ops have a 80% win rate while high pop ops have a 20% win rate.
I do think awarding a little more TC's and removing the Bulldogs may be the better solution, but I'm wary of making low pop win rates increase further.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:44 pm
by Gun Hog
Easily fixed by adjusting the coefficient, yes?
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:42 pm
by imblyings
how about a voucher system like the one mining uses ? that's the closest code equivalent I can think of that lets players have a round start choice in gear.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:11 pm
by TechnoAlchemist
imblyings wrote:how about a voucher system like the one mining uses ? that's the closest code equivalent I can think of that lets players have a round start choice in gear.
Paprika was working on something like this at one point, sadly they will never code again.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:32 pm
by Falamazeer
imblyings wrote:how about a voucher system like the one mining uses ? that's the closest code equivalent I can think of that lets players have a round start choice in gear.
This seems like the best overall decision for this, I'd love to see such a thing, I was mulling over something like the detectives revolver, but that just wasn't clicking in my head right, Something like an icon that said 'Gun' that you'd click and then pick from a list, but your idea isn't retarded but still lets people pick their loadout at round start. good thinking brah
TechnoAlchemist wrote:sadly
bleh. I want to disagree on principle, but honestly this isn't the only change I heard he left unfinished that would have been pretty sweet, disabler being the other. Is it just untouchable because it was his or what? why can't a good coder finish these and see if they work?
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:21 am
by Steelpoint
Oh don't worry I can just copy Paprika's code he did write up for the voucher system if we want.
The only problem is, and was my argument back then, is that this system is giving operatives a whole bunch of TC's for free to spend on a wide range of misc gear.
Not a bad thing since it may help in high pop games but it will only exacerbate low pop game win rates.
Re: Give nuke ops their CR-20s back?
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:51 am
by lumipharon
All guns are not equal - a straight up voucher system will not be balanced at all.
As I've said before, remove default bulldogs, and allow EACH uplink to spawn ONE primary weapon at a discounted price.
Also with nuke ops scaling poorly with pop, why has no one added scaling nuke op numbers yet?
5 ops when there's one sec officer is just as shit as 5 ops vs 70 crew and a full sec team.
More people is far more reliable then more/better gear (except mechs, but fuck them), since one person can still get dunked due to a lucky hit/one fuckup, regardless of what they have (unless they've got the whole nodrop/e-shield rape combo which I think is getting removed).