Default Lethal Weapons for Security

[onleavedontatme]

There are a growing number of threats to the station that a basic security officer is simply useless against. Constructs, morphs, demons, mechs, wizards, ninjas, xenomorphs, abductors, certain nuke loadouts, etc are either immune to stuns or easily able to escape them.

The handful of weapons meant to counter these things are in the armory, and are often stolen by the time thr threat is apparent, leaving the people supposedly armed to defend the station trying to beat a mauler to death with a baton.

Would a lethal sidearm for security officers be a terrible idea?

[DemonFiren]

Not in my opinion.

Of course, the last time I saw lethals working as default Sec gear was on Bay, when all tasers were replaced with Stechkins.

[Stickymayhem]

A shotgun in each security office in id-locked glass wall cases.

They are tacticool, satisfying to break out as shit gets real, mostly impervious to fuckery from the threats you mentioned, give traitors some interesting new opportunities, scatter resources for security to use across the station once again preventing destruction of the armory from being gg no re AND dont require every security fuckhead being immediately equipped with lethal weaponry from roundstart ensuring the element of surprise for the antags is retained.

I think it's ideal. Rather than seeing a morph, whipping out your gun and shooting it dead you scream morph, run to your station and lock and load.

Please code it Kor I get one good idea every year

[TheNightingale]

A shotgun in each security office in id-locked glass wall cases.

They are tacticool, satisfying to break out as shit gets real, mostly impervious to fuckery from the threats you mentioned, give traitors some interesting new opportunities, scatter resources for security to use across the station once again preventing destruction of the armory from being gg no re AND dont require every security fuckhead being immediately equipped with lethal weaponry from roundstart ensuring the element of surprise for the antags is retained.

I think it's ideal. Rather than seeing a morph, whipping out your gun and shooting it dead you scream morph, run to your station and lock and load.

Please code it Kor I get one good idea every year

That's... actually a good idea. What are they loaded with, and what sort of shotgun? (Riot with buckshot?) If they're too powerful, every antag and their mother is going to get one somehow and murderbone with it. If the case is emaggable, we'll want a way for changelings to access it too (namely EMP); or perhaps the AI can unlock them too.

[Stickymayhem]

A shotgun in each security office in id-locked glass wall cases.

They are tacticool, satisfying to break out as shit gets real, mostly impervious to fuckery from the threats you mentioned, give traitors some interesting new opportunities, scatter resources for security to use across the station once again preventing destruction of the armory from being gg no re AND dont require every security fuckhead being immediately equipped with lethal weaponry from roundstart ensuring the element of surprise for the antags is retained.

I think it's ideal. Rather than seeing a morph, whipping out your gun and shooting it dead you scream morph, run to your station and lock and load.

Please code it Kor I get one good idea every year

That's... actually a good idea. What are they loaded with, and what sort of shotgun? (Riot with buckshot?) If they're too powerful, every antag and their mother is going to get one somehow and murderbone with it. If the case is emaggable, we'll want a way for changelings to access it too (namely EMP); or perhaps the AI can unlock them too.

Riot with two or three slugs. You unlock it with a security ID I guess. Maybe you need an emag and really high damage like a circular saw, fire axe or laser gun. It won't be a nightmare for murderbone because shotguns are big, obvious, unwieldy, come with extremely limited ammo and are basically just worse revolvers that look cooler.

[TechnoAlchemist]

I am behind this 100%, giving them a low caliber handgun would be great, given that they keep non-lethal options.

Random people disarming/stealing them should be able to dealt with very, very severely if this were a thing though.


I don't think that you should keep lethals in the security offices that are broken into by anyone and everyone.

First thing any person does when they steal access is steal shit from the arrivals sec office, I really don't want to add a free gun to those people's haul.

[Gun Hog]

What is the problem with getting more guns from Cargo or Science?

[lumipharon]

Riot shotguns can be sawn down to fit in bags.
Combat shotguns are LITERALLY revolvers that can't be stowed, and need to be loaded 1 shell at a time.

Also these things are going to get looted all the fucking time, either way.

[PKPenguin321]

Fuck yeah, I'd love to see security have some kind of nerfed syndicate pistol. Only requirements I'd give it are that it shouldn't do any stamina damage/stun so it can't stunlock, have relatively small clips with only moderate damage (maybe like 8 bullets that do 12 brute each, not enough to crit someone at full health (96 damage) but enough to seriously injure), and should have some kind of reload delay. It should also be loadable with alternate ammo that has minor armor piercing, which would make friendly fire more devastating but make it more viable against things like Nuke Ops. Maybe if that's too good and armor piercing rounds become the meta you could make them do slightly less damage (9 brute each, for 72 with one clip total).
They should be standard issue. Officers spawn with them, and two extras are in the armory, like tasers. A big downside would be that they cannot be loyalty pinned, meaning if you lose your gun it could actually be really serious. The armory would have a few boxes of extra clips, as well as there being a few clips in the sec vendor. The guns do fit in pockets, but that's okay since it's balanced out by the fact that your gun can be pickpocketed.

On the topic of fuckin' radical security buffs, somebody should find a way to make https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10306 work and implement it. We could give sec officers Krav Maga. As it is in the PR, it would let security have toolboxes for hands (minus the RNG stun chance), have a superior disarm, and have natural armor against melee. (Maybe we could tone it down a bit on the armor and mainly just make them have stronger punches/disarm, though.)

Maybe give traitors a cheap item that lets them hack the guns to do +6 damage per bullet (maybe like a device that reinforces the bullet chamber or some other fluff and is disguised as a screwdriver) so that looting the gun off of officers for an arguably better revolver becomes a viable tactic (and so once sec catches a traitor with one they can upgrade all their guns).

I don't know, I just think this has a lot of potential. Honestly it would probably fuck up the balance of stuff like rev and gang really badly, but it would be so cool to have more firefights between traitors and sec officers.

[whodaloo]

gating the shotguns behind, like, a code red would be okay
as long as there was no way to get them out other than that

also giving sec a weapon that actually did brute damage would be awesome for dealing with constructs

[lumipharon]

Having the weapon case only pop out during red alert (or higher) would actually be really cool, and solve any looting/roundstart murder sec shit.

[Stickymayhem]

Red alert thing I love it.

Metal shutter over a glass wall case. Red alert means the shutter goes up and it can be smashed or unlocked.

That way it can also be a EVERYTHING IS FUCKED ALL CREW GRAB SHOTGUNS IF YOU CAN AND DEFEND US

[onleavedontatme]

Red alert thing I love it.

Metal shutter over a glass wall case. Red alert means the shutter goes up and it can be smashed or unlocked.

That way it can also be a EVERYTHING IS FUCKED ALL CREW GRAB SHOTGUNS IF YOU CAN AND DEFEND US

Now we just need a way to set red alert that isnt horribly clunky.

[Jacough]

I am behind this 100%, giving them a low caliber handgun would be great, given that they keep non-lethal options.

Random people disarming/stealing them should be able to dealt with very, very severely if this were a thing though.

Compact 9mm pistol with a seven round mag that can fit in the security belt that does slightly less damage than the laser gun?

[Stickymayhem]

Red alert thing I love it.

Metal shutter over a glass wall case. Red alert means the shutter goes up and it can be smashed or unlocked.

That way it can also be a EVERYTHING IS FUCKED ALL CREW GRAB SHOTGUNS IF YOU CAN AND DEFEND US

Now we just need a way to set red alert that isnt horribly clunky.

the current system would work fine if it got a nano ui update and basically functioned like the shuttle launch

[Scones]

Default sidearms are a very good option

Fuck people who want cuck-tier handguns, you want lethality? You're playing against a Security force who is pitted against instant uncounterable stuns, stun immunes, stam regens, and two shot weapons, all while wearing armor that is a THIRD of what it used to be. They deserve a RELIABLE lethal option.

Putting these as stationary objects is a bad idea because 1.) There are not enough of them for the security force, and 2.) People will just fucking steal them before sec gets at them

[Shaps-cloud]

Why bother with service pistols that only deal like 20 damage if the big threats that overwhelm sec are usually resistant or outright impervious to low amounts of damage (slaughter demons laugh off low to medium amounts of damage and can regen health easily if you let them get away, juggernauts are impervious to low amounts of damage and also lasers for some reason, nuke ops are pretty decently armored against lasers, etc...)

If you're gonna give sec more lethals, make them super high power, like riot shotguns filled with slugs. Laser guns continue to be the go-to tool for dealing with soft targets because of their spam capabilities and ease of reloading, and riot shotties filled with slugs are doled out when the really fucking big dudes come out that nothing else can touch like ops or juggernauts

Also do bullets have a higher chance to penetrate shields/eswords than beams do?

[PKPenguin321]

Why bother with service pistols that only deal like 20 damage if the big threats that overwhelm sec are usually resistant or outright impervious to low amounts of damage (slaughter demons laugh off low to medium amounts of damage and can regen health easily if you let them get away, juggernauts are impervious to low amounts of damage and also lasers for some reason, nuke ops are pretty decently armored against lasers, etc...)

juggs actually only ignore damage lower than 10, a gun with 20 brute would destroy them

Also do bullets have a higher chance to penetrate shields/eswords than beams do?

they ignore eshields and swords entirely

[onleavedontatme]

Why bother with service pistols that only deal like 20 damage if the big threats that overwhelm sec are usually resistant or outright impervious to low amounts of damage (slaughter demons laugh off low to medium amounts of damage and can regen health easily if you let them get away, juggernauts are impervious to low amounts of damage and also lasers for some reason, nuke ops are pretty decently armored against lasers, etc...)

juggs actually only ignore damage lower than 10, a gun with 20 brute would destroy them

Also do bullets have a higher chance to penetrate shields/eswords than beams do?

they ignore eshields and swords entirely

Eshields have a 100% reflect vs energy, but a normal 50% chance vs melee, and a (50 - (projdamage/3))% chance vs bullets.

Eswords are the same deal (minus the 100% thing).

[whodaloo]

what is everyone's fascination with shotgun slugs
i know it basically turns shotguns into revolvers but buckshot is cooler

[lumipharon]

Because friendly fire. Also inferior unless at pointblank range.

[onleavedontatme]

Riot shotguns can be sawn down to fit in bags.
Combat shotguns are LITERALLY revolvers that can't be stowed, and need to be loaded 1 shell at a time.

Not like we can't design a new gun, however it gets put in.

[Scones]

If you give them a weapon that can't kill people it's useless

[Zilenan91]

I'm all for sec having lethal weapons, but whats to stop the HoS and cap from powergaming and instantly going into Red Alert at round start then back out of it for the shotguns? Also what would happen to Nuke Ops? Ops would get utterly fucked if all of sec was armed with shotguns with slugs right outta the gate, same with wizards and basically all other antags except blob. This would mean that sec would have (I think) four slightly worse revolvers at round start that they could very easily get more ammo for next to nothing for by just asking to be let into cargo, letting themselves in with a cargo guard, or beating up the cargonians/carding the AI for denying them entrance.

Giving sec free revolvers is a bad idea imo, it would completely fuck the balance of so many modes. My suggestion is to give them stechkins, anything more would be too much, with there being one spare clip in every office and some more spare ammo for them in the armory in case they need more. A light upgrade to lethality with some lowish damage ballistic weapons. To compensate, I feel as if Op combat shields would need ballistic block chance upped just a tiny bit (like 5% max), they're balanced around a high amount of energy weapons, not what would soon come to be ballistic weapons.

[Saegrimr]

gating the shotguns behind, like, a code red would be okay
as long as there was no way to get them out other than that

Metal shutter over a glass wall case. Red alert means the shutter goes up and it can be smashed or unlocked.

That way it can also be a EVERYTHING IS FUCKED ALL CREW GRAB SHOTGUNS IF YOU CAN AND DEFEND US

I was against shoving shotguns all over the station until this. At least greytiding looters wont be running around with shotguns every round this way.

Plus it'd be nice to see red alert used more.

[Steelpoint]

If your going to give Security Officers a lethal weapon, irrespective of it being round start or red alert, it needs to be actually able to kill/crit people reasonably. There's no point in taking a lethal weapon that won't actually kill anyone.

[Void Slayer]

Umm, why cant the warden and HoS just pass out the armory guns at round start, I mean if your gonna give them lethal weapons just let it be controlled by the armory bosses.

[Shaps-cloud]

what is everyone's fascination with shotgun slugs
i know it basically turns shotguns into revolvers but buckshot is cooler

Buckshot is an excellent way to kill everything standing behind your target and get yelled at for massive collateral damage

[Stickymayhem]

If your going to give Security Officers a lethal weapon, irrespective of it being round start or red alert, it needs to be actually able to kill/crit people reasonably. There's no point in taking a lethal weapon that won't actually kill anyone.

Shotgun

[Jacough]

One alternative would be making sec officers start with an implant that allows them to throw their batons so hard that they actually lodge in people. Doing so while they're on will repeatedly stun the perp and cook them from inside until the baton runs out of power. The biggest drawback aside from basically disarming yourself, is that it takes a second or two to yank the baton out of the perp's corpse. Doing so displays badass messages though.
"X steps firmly on y's chest and begins pulling the baton out".
"X yanks the baton from y's chest with a sickening squelch".

[Falamazeer]

One alternative would be making sec officers start with an implant that allows them to throw their batons so hard that they actually lodge in people. Doing so while they're on will repeatedly stun the perp and cook them from inside until the baton runs out of power. The biggest drawback aside from basically disarming yourself, is that it takes a second or two to yank the baton out of the perp's corpse. Doing so displays badass messages though.
"X steps firmly on y's chest and begins pulling the baton out".
"X yanks the baton from y's chest with a sickening squelch".

I've been saying to add a stun to thrown batons forever, but I was recently told was far too broken to allow such a thing, mostly due to throw being the way it is. so I closed the thread, about a week later, thrown beakers became a thing.

why space jesus? why?


Also, holy shit, I never thought I would see the day this would be seriously considered.
Fix code red, and sticky's idea is a damn fine one.

[Amelius]

I really dislike the consideration for a bullet-based standard firearm for all of security.

1. It renders certain traitor gear nigh useless and definitely not worth the cost (e.g. double esword, only good because it guarantees a 100% reflect on energy weapons that sec is mostly reliant on, costs 16 TC).

2. Easily spammable down corridors, no longer can a traitor simply outrun taser shots or be safe offscreen because every officer has a gigantic 'fuck you' pistol. This is one of the two reasons I dislike disablers as well (low skill requirement, semi-infinite ammo, impossible to dodge after being hit once or twice, and it's literally impossible to dodge an entire load from a fully-charged egun - may as well be a taser on babby wheels).

3. Makes sec even more better equipped than all the traitors on the station collectively. For 20 TC you can buy a revolver, and two things of ammo, or a pistol and adrenals. Meanwhile, sec gets not only departmental solidarity, a validhunting AI/cyborgs by it's side, a massive armory with equipment to combat any situation, stunbatons, flashes (AoEspammable), flashbangs, flash and deafness immunity, a taser, AND now a fucking pistol. Plus, sec typically are greater in number than the traitors, and the traitors almost always do not have any solidarity and wind up killing each other in maint, since they tend to hang out in similar areas. Sec does NOT need a flat buff. Replace the ammo in the locker in the armory with lethal slugs instead of rubber bullets, if anything.

Also, don't pretend 'CAN'T BE LOYALTY PINNED' is a penalty. No one uses that shit, and honestly, firing pins should be removed in lieu of good old lockboxes.

I believe that sec does not need a buff at this juncture, unless antags, traitors especially, receive a proportional buff. Traitor rounds, sans DA continue to fizzle out in totality and feel like extended much of the time, all this is going to do is shut it down more because 'IGNORE ALL EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY, BUFF SECURITY UNTIL ROUNDS ARE AS BANAL AND BORING AS THEY WERE OH, A MONTH AGO'.

Really though, traitor is still in dire straits. Usually the station gets bombed or singuloth is released, but you rarely actually see any character antagonism or even generic murderbones because it's suicide to do so. Know what that makes? Boring as dirt rounds.

[imblyings]

An easy option would just be to add a reskinned HoS gun for officers. Officers will be able to choose between disabler, taser, and laser shots from roundstart but they will have to choose carefully to conserve energy. I'm not sure how easy code-wise this would be but code red could also serve to unlock the laser setting on the guns, if people have something against officers starting with ranged lethals.

[Saegrimr]

An easy option would just be to add a reskinned HoS gun for officers. Officers will be able to choose between disabler, taser, and laser shots from roundstart but they will have to choose carefully to conserve energy. I'm not sure how easy code-wise this would be but code red could also serve to unlock the laser setting on the guns, if people have something against officers starting with ranged lethals.

Yeah but why even bother having an armory at this point?

[lumipharon]

Wasn't there some wacky plan to give sec one of the martial art styles?

That shit would be hilarious (also awful unless you play hotkey mode).

Martial arts needs a dojo system though, where you can teach the uninitiated moves one at a time - so for the sec example, the warden might teach recruited officers their ELITE SEC TAKEDOWN techniques.

[Thunder11]

Snip

tl;dr traitors should be more powerful than security and shouldn't have to rely on stealth instead of murderboning

[Steelpoint]

An easy option would just be to add a reskinned HoS gun for officers. Officers will be able to choose between disabler, taser, and laser shots from roundstart but they will have to choose carefully to conserve energy. I'm not sure how easy code-wise this would be but code red could also serve to unlock the laser setting on the guns, if people have something against officers starting with ranged lethals.

I like the idea of a standard sidearm that has a lethal setting that is only unlocked on Red/Delta Alert. Would be a unique system and encourage the usage of Red Alert more often.

[Thunder11]

Giving red alert even more benefits would honestly just make it even more popular to activate just because you can. It really needs some sort of downside attached, to prevent 24/7 code red.

[CPTANT]

The lasers and energy gun sec gets are pretty horrible weapons anyway.

You do 20 damage and get 10 shots.

To crit an UNARMOURED person you need to hit FIVE shots. Because you will basically always miss at least 1 shot This means a fully charged laser gun has enough charge to crit ONE person.

The laser bolts move very slow and can be dodged (especially compared to ballistics).

You can't reload halfway through a battle (unless you just carry more guns). Recharging takes ages.

In the meantime one taser shot makes someone combat ineffective.



Remove tasers. Increase the amount of shots a charged disabler can fire by around 50%. Buff laser damage to 25 and/or increase the amount of laser shots to 12/14.

Every one keeps screaming we want away from stun based combat, but nobody has the balls to do so. Combining the removal of tasers with a buff to the disablers and secs lethal weapons means we move away from stuns while ensuring sec doesn't get entirely fucked.

[J_Madison]

Stuns need more balancing than fixing or removing.

Nobody wants to get stunned and then gg no re cuff.
At current meta, a stun is better than 99 damage.

Aside from that, I like this suggestion; am I the only person as security to put Combat shotguns into safes in the Brig or combat shotguns at the Brig EVA room?

I don't want to tell you how many times that saved me, when I was chased by cultists and cornered in my office.
Cult lost because of a backup combat shotgun.

[Malkevin]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the reason the combat is stun based and straight lethal combat is considered shit is because lethals ARE shit.
I can stun once and cuff someone then beat them to death at my leisure or I can hope I can manage to achieve a >50% hit rate with my laser gun, or I can try to hit someone ten times whilst we lag bump into each other.

Bring back old harmbaton of chainstun doom.

Give the HoS a quad barrel shotgun, with speed loaders
[youtube]ZmyNqO6LAvQ[/youtube]

Give officers Eguns.


And for the love of christ, reduce the energy cost of a laser shot so eguns/lasers actually have a decent amount of ammo in their cell.

[Saegrimr]

Is everybody forgetting most tasers and stun gear already got ruined by Paprika?

[CPTANT]

Is everybody forgetting most tasers and stun gear already got ruined by Paprika?

Without ever making lethals more attractive.

[Shaps-cloud]

If sec got actual slugs in the armory for their shotguns, it would allow them to deal with big threats like juggernauts and operatives without coming down too hard on traitors since shotguns are fairly unweildly and in limited supply, so sec would only bother to bust them out when the more general use laser rifles cease to be effective (like the aforementioned ops and juggs). You'd have to be well into a fairly substantial murderbone to make it worth it for sec to bust out the big guns, and the idea of a specialist officer rocking a shotgun in the back while his squadmates try to help him line a shot up on the target sounds really tacticool and fun compared to the laser spam from all directions method sec has to use to kill things now

[Malkevin]

Why bother with service pistols that only deal like 20 damage if the big threats that overwhelm sec are usually resistant or outright impervious to low amounts of damage (slaughter demons laugh off low to medium amounts of damage and can regen health easily if you let them get away, juggernauts are impervious to low amounts of damage and also lasers for some reason, nuke ops are pretty decently armored against lasers, etc...)

I made them that way because they were absolutely fucked against lasers before, of course this was back in the days before some dumb arse thought that floor tiles and rods doing 15 throw damage was too 'OP'

They're also not impervious, I think some of the reflected damage is still applied to them (although I might've done that in the PR I did afterwards that never got merged, so maybe it doesn't) and the reflection chance isn't 100% and the scatter radius is greater than ablative so its more likely to fry the clown next to you than you.

[Tornadium]

I really like the idea of a Lethal Sidearm.

Do not make it an energy weapon though, They're fucking useless as it is.

[Malkevin]

What about a multi-mag-fed ballistic gun like the LawGiver?

[Steelpoint]

A Energy lethal firearm can work if its damage is buffed, but good luck getting that past coder bus. I had to fight tooth and nail just to get the Laser Gun to hold 12 rounds instead of 10.

[Tornadium]

A Energy lethal firearm can work if its damage is buffed, but good luck getting that past coder bus. I had to fight tooth and nail just to get the Laser Gun to hold 12 rounds instead of 10.

Far too many threats straight up counter Energy Weapons.

Giving Sec a lethal energy sidearm doesn't do shit. It would have to be ballistic like the Syndie Pistol for it to be even remotely effective.

[Cheimon]

Pistol with 12 brute damage won't be any good if it can't even kill a person with a full clip. That's useless against demons, wizards, constructs, all that (especially if, like we're suggesting, it doesn't have stamina damage).

Riot shotguns full up with slugs seems like by far the best idea so far. Buckshot is pretty crap at range unless you really want to up your friendly fire, whereas slugs actually do enough damage to be worth considering. They're slightly fiddly to use, so not as good as a revolver, and gating it behind code red will mean they're not available immediately.

Making code red more useful will make antags more interested in stealth. It's not going to be called for a few husked bodies, but it will be called if half the station's dead. That sort of thing.