/tg/Station 13

I think the two biggest problems, now, plaguing Nuke Ops is their non-scaling population and their lack of ammo.

While ammo is more a issue of TC's I think one suggestion in buffing this is offering Ops a free, but weaker, SMG for ranged combat with ammo to spare.

Hence I suggest giving Operatives a varient of the Security WT-550 Auto Rifle.

The rifle would be the WTS-550 Auto Rifle, identical to the WT-550 except it has a red stripe, has a modified burst fire ability and can attach a silencer.

There would be several issued in the ops armoury alongside the bulldog.

Your thoughts?

ammo does tend to be a problem in my experiences with new cops, as the sheer number of crew usually requires much more than is available, and if tc is used for ammo that gimps them for what they COULD be spending it on. i know there are alternatives like eswords and all but really all it ever takes is one greyshirt on disarm intent and that shit goes out the window.

anyway, agreed.

Ultimantly the WTS-550 is meant to be weaker than the other Syndicate buyable weapons, such as the C20r, but it offers a free, cheap, weapon to use for Ops that has more ammo.

Now to just scale Op populations and we're golden.

What you're describing is just a sabr. without your 10 foot long mag changes.

I don't want any nuke op weapon to be a variant of a nanotrasen standard issue weapon in any way shape or form for purely thematic reasons.

I think the Bulldog is a perfectly fine primary for nuke ops as is.

WT-550 is not a Nanotrasen weapon, its made by a third party manufacturer.

Steelpoint wrote:WT-550 is not a Nanotrasen weapon, its made by a third party manufacturer.

Nuke ops should use syndicate weapons regardless.

They already use equipment used by Nanotrasen anyway like Syndicate Cyborgs, tools and equipment and energy swords.

Steelpoint wrote:They already use equipment used by Nanotrasen anyway like Syndicate Cyborgs, tools and equipment and energy swords.

Fair, but I don't think they should be using the sec auto rifle with a red stripe on it, that seems excessively lazy and just bad. Just give it a unique sprite and make it a syndicate weapon to make nuke ops more unique if anything.

Well if my auto rifle alt sprite goes through I can use the current sprite for a Op weapon.

But sprite aside my suggestion stands.

Honestly ammo isn't a problem in the sense that ammo is FUCKING CHEAP.

The only problem in this regard is that people tend to not buy enough of it.
This is a player being shit problem, not a code one.

2-3 spare mags for either the c-20r or m-90 is more then enough unless you somehow get stuck in a 30 minute fire fight.
10tc ammo duffle gives like 13 shotguns mags - more then enough for atleast 2 people.

What I would suggest, is adding ammo duffles for other weapons - it would benefit teams that actually co-ordinate their equipment.

How about giving them their C20Rs back instead of putting your codebabby into as many things as possible?

I only said the SMG simply because some people really dislike wanting to give C20r's to Ops at round start.

Either this or I could throw some dufflebags full of ammo on the op ship.

No way, they already start with a bulldog and ammo for that

Nuke ops aren't meant to kill EVERYONE on the station before blowing the nuke, and certainly don't need any more free tools to do so

Well they are since they're blowing up the nuke.

The problem is the crew makes it that the Ops have to kill a lot of people to get to the nuke disk and back again.

While this is more my own experience and theory crafting, low pop win rates are high because the Ops have sufficient ammo to plow through most opposition (though this is pre sec-autogun) whereas on high pop (more than 50 people) they run low on ammo and get overrun.

Steelpoint wrote:Well they are since they're blowing up the nuke.

The problem is the crew makes it that the Ops have to kill a lot of people to get to the nuke disk and back again.

While this is more my own experience and theory crafting, low pop win rates are high because the Ops have sufficient ammo to plow through most opposition (though this is pre sec-autogun) whereas on high pop (more than 50 people) they run low on ammo and get overrun.

for 10 TC, they can get 60x8x6 damage (2800) plus 8 *incendiary, 8*buckshot, and 8*taser.

That's enough to crit half a station.

I typically buy 2 spare mags of ammo for c-20 or m-90.

I honestly don't think I've ever run out.

You either win with ammo to spare or die with ammo unused.

Ammo itself is cheap, it's just in high pop, you can't shoot 4 people at once, and chances are, if you go down when you're fighting a load of people, someone is going to steal your gun, or start smashing your head in.
In lowpop, your chance of actually fighting more then 3 people at any one time is much lower.

Maybe we could nerf the SAW a bit and give them an honest-to-gods minigun, like I tried to and failed, backpack ammo and all. Something to hose down an entire hallway with, spewing cartridges everywhere, laughing maniacally.

Steelpoint wrote:I only said the SMG simply because some people really dislike wanting to give C20r's to Ops at round start.

Either this or I could throw some dufflebags full of ammo on the op ship.

Why does it matter that some people dislike it? Some people dislike lots of stuff on this server, doesn't mean we would get rid of it.
Nuke Ops had C20r's for years until they got taken away, and there were never any issues with it. Since they got taken away, we've been jumping from one weapon set to the next, either giving them literally fuck all, or giving them bioterror murder shotguns.

C20r's still seem like the best option.

Steelpoint can you just stop? Please?

You've been called out for being self serving from the beginning for your recent attempts to get your personal gun porn added into the game in some way, shape, or form through false pretenses. And here you are again with the same kind of flavor changes in poor taste than you've been called out for.

We have CR20s. We have Syndie assault rifles. Give it a rest, they're better than whatever new shit you've cooked up or so close that your change doesn't serve any thematic purpose to the game other than to make you personally feel good.

Tunder wrote:Steelpoint can you just stop? Please?

Please stop, Steelpoint.

I saw this thread topic and didn't even have to look at the author to know it was going to be you. You're creating reasons to pursue a personal agenda by fabricating "problems" of gameplay balance that don't exist. The solution to your "sec lethal weapons problem" was to boost lasers, yet you ended up implementing something wholly unsuited and impractical that hasn't even addressed the original problem.

The bulldog is a great weapon because it emphasises the assymmetric nature of the game mode. Steelpoint doesn't understand the game mode if he wants the two sides to have the same weapons.

Honestly I've always said we should just fuck bulldogs and give Ops C20-Rs round start instead. If they get an ammo bag too (I'd say 20 mags in it of C20 ammo), they would be only slightly less efficient vs. the crew as far as killing goes, but gain a huge knockdown that would help them deal with larger numbers of crew at once, especially in places like the hallways due to yakkity. In short, giving them reskinned auto rifles is bad, they're just worse versions of C20-Rs if they were to be implemented in the state you said they would be.

Also what are you even talking about invisty, Ops have shitloads of ammo problems if they actively try to fight the crew instead of yakkitying right into space with the disk (though you would still be able to do both if they had C20s round start). I don't quite know where you get the asymmetric part of Ops, however. Asymmetry implies difference, yet Ops have just better versions of the stuff the crew has or commonly encounters, and revolver 2.0s (bulldogs) aren't exactly iconic, and neither are energy swords and other various gear which shows up in two other modes.

TWENTY c-20 mags?

That's 200 stuns and 80 crits worth of ammo.

bulldog duffle has like 20 crits worth of ammo.

Bulldogs are neat because they have the ammo variety of shotguns with the reload easy of automatics. The main drawback is you have to fiddling around to reload fairly often due to low mag size, which is annoying when you've got shit in both hands, or are in a busy fight.

ALl the talk about balance and ammo is fairly pointless until someone is able to scale nuke ops properly to pop though - EVERYONE agrees that they have a serious issue there.

lumipharon wrote:ALl the talk about balance and ammo is fairly pointless until someone is able to scale nuke ops properly to pop though - EVERYONE agrees that they have a serious issue there.

For every ten players, one operative, perhaps? (I shall use the helpful medium of emoticons to represent this! Engies to Ops.)


^This one's the Operative! See the evil glare of this hardened veteran. Join NanoTrasen Loyalty Corps and fight the red-and-black menace!

This way they can probably win if they're focused and ignore non-threats, but will quickly be mobbed by the other nine if they gun down everyone they see.

What ever happened to the datum based antag thing? Pretty sure that had a solution to all this.

lumipharon wrote:What ever happened to the datum based antag thing? Pretty sure that had a solution to all this.

It was probably way too big

Ask Incoming, I think it was his

On second thought, 20 mags of C20 is too much. If Ops stay at 5 people, 10 would be better (double value ammo for TCs). Still though, C20 default for Ops would fix a lot of their balance problems.

Maybe nuke ops could have more options in firepower.
Like a bulldog should have a cansupress value and maybe even include something like a Universal Combat Sear.
Almost any semiauto gun with a detachable magazine could be upgraded with the UCS accessory and will allow them to have selective fire, like 2 round burst. Imagine a suppressed Bulldog shooting 2 slugs into people, dropping them and marching on.

And nuke ops could have a new item: 20 round 12g drum for about 5 TC, but it starts empty. That way the operative could have far more firepower and be very dangerous for longer without having to reload.

I honestly want to see back and forth shootouts between sec and the ops, with casualties from both sides in fierce brutal fashions.

Maybe their "FK-69" could also come with more purchasable high capacity magazines. A 30 round and a 100 round, priced at 4 TC and 10 TC(respectively).
But a new weaker SMG doesn't sound very good. It'll just blur the lines on what we are used to. Bulldogs are being used a bit more but haven't been given a lot of love overall. Expanding what you can do with it as a combat shotgun would make it a respectable primary weapon and solve the problem of firepower.

Nuke ops scaling is the answer to all problems with the gamemode.

Seeing that is the first step to solving the problem.

It is the first step and I would do it but sadly its beyond my capabilities.

Steelpoint wrote:It is the first step and I would do it but sadly its beyond my capabilities.

it's like one line Steelpoint, heck, look at the other scaling gamemodes, it's literally one line.
it's something like:
required_enemies = round((players/some_number)) (You don't want half a nuke op, rofl)
eg:
required_enemies = round((60/10)) = 6
required_enemies = round((40/10)) = 4

10 might be decent, it's 1 op per 10 people, but it's that.
(it might be recommended_enemies not required_enemies, just look at the other modes)
(also those coefficients (eg 10) tend to go in the config file to make it easier to adjust on servers)

Ok sure if I set down to do it I might get something to work, but the last time I tried that was with attaching seclights to helmets and the Emergency Response Team, it worked but it was ugly.

Scaling isn't the answer. Gun overhauls aren't the answer.

One Op per ten crew means Ops will be hilariously overpowered when they all attack one part of the station at once.

Ops don't fluke because there aren't enough of them, they fluke because every single Op team has at least one but usually more than one member who has no idea what he is doing and doesn't pay attention to the plan. A five man Op team can beat almost anything together, but a significant portion of the team is always plain bad and gets lost or forgets to turn their jetpacks on right out of the shuttle.

You want to fix Fluke Ops completely? Timegate or whitelist it.

Since that will never happen, there are other options to improve it:

Give the Nuke Op leader complete control, give the other ops flavor text that tells them to obey the leader at all times. Give the leader all of the TC instead of spreading it out amongst the team. This will cut down on any arguing, drastically speed up planning and organization, and lead to better functioning Ops at every level. There is a leader for a reason, he should have ingrained authority.

Additionally, you could set Nuke Op Leader to it's own checkbox, or specifically whitelist that job to make sure a suitable player gets it.

Tunder wrote: Additionally, you could set Nuke Op Leader to it's own checkbox, or specifically whitelist that job to make sure a suitable player gets it.

I've made uh.. "alternate" Antag flags possible in my Hand of God PR (we're currently limited to 16 antag flags (0-15) and we've used them).
This lets us do things like that, eg:
* Roundstart Cultist
* Revhead
* Nukeop leader

etc.