/tg/Station 13

Consider the following:

Patches bypass armour.
A 50u patch practically heals ALL wounds in that region, and regions nearby.
IIRC a 50u patch will almost entirely someone whom is almost about to go into crit.
There is only one, minor and rarely used mechanic that makes the pill superior in one way, and one way possible - dropping it into a drink.

Solution:
Nerf patches to 25u or 35u maximum.

Reasoning:
Pills are useful again as they're capable of holding more chemicals.
Greyshit, valid antag, or whomever you're trying to kill won't instantly heal 90% of their health with a single patch.

Or we could add a delay to using them on yourself (much like bruise packs and ointment) so you can't slap patches on during combat for full health.

Patches are head and shoulders above both bruise packs and trek chems in terms of fast and easy healing - despite goof repeatedly going on about how dumb being able to load up on DD etc to quickly heal, it ignores the fact that goofchem patches do the exact same thing only far far better.

A 50u patc of 25/25 silver sulf and styptic will heal all your brute and burn damage (unless you have a serious shit load, which usually means you're in crit.
On top of this, half (give or take) is done INSTANTLY, to every part of your body, unike bruisepacks.
The other half is done over time, which is exactly the same thing as people loading up on DD/tricord or whatever, since there is no addiction or OD threshold.

Nerfing patch max amount honestly isn't goin to help - in 95% of cases, a 50u healing patch is way more then overkill, even 25u patches are more then you need for all but the most seriously injured people.

lumipharon wrote:Patches are head and shoulders above both bruise packs and trek chems in terms of fast and easy healing - despite goof repeatedly going on about how dumb being able to load up on DD etc to quickly heal, it ignores the fact that goofchem patches do the exact same thing only far far better.

A 50u patc of 25/25 silver sulf and styptic will heal all your brute and burn damage (unless you have a serious shit load, which usually means you're in crit.
On top of this, half (give or take) is done INSTANTLY, to every part of your body, unike bruisepacks.
The other half is done over time, which is exactly the same thing as people loading up on DD/tricord or whatever, since there is no addiction or OD threshold.

Nerfing patch max amount honestly isn't goin to help - in 95% of cases, a 50u healing patch is way more then overkill, even 25u patches are more then you need for all but the most seriously injured people.

Strange. According to my tests, it made a big difference, I can't confirm or deny changes to those two touch based medicines, so a potential nerf would be required too.

TechnoAlchemist wrote:Or we could add a delay to using them on yourself (much like bruise packs and ointment) so you can't slap patches on during combat for full health.

People will get quite upset at this change, I garuantee it.

I think patches are just pills that go through hardsuits. If we're trying to differentiate them, then...

* Add a short (i.e. shorter than current bruise packs/ointment/gauze) delay to patches, and remove the delay from bruise packs, ointment and gauze
* Remove patches' ability to work through hard clothing

Opinions?

TheNightingale wrote:I think patches are just pills that go through hardsuits. If we're trying to differentiate them, then...

* Add a short (i.e. shorter than current bruise packs/ointment/gauze) delay to patches, and remove the delay from bruise packs, ointment and gauze
* Remove patches' ability to work through hard clothing

Opinions?

1. People - especially miners - will not like that.
2. Ditto. Miners, engineers, firefighters cannot risk removing protective equipment.

i have changed my ways about caring about fast heals being too fast and instead ask "why do we need to nerf it", and "why does medbay need to be slow and nerfed"

if anything we should just buff pills to hold 75u or something, and remove the application delays on bruise/ointment/gauze

J_Madison wrote:

TheNightingale wrote:I think patches are just pills that go through hardsuits. If we're trying to differentiate them, then...

* Add a short (i.e. shorter than current bruise packs/ointment/gauze) delay to patches, and remove the delay from bruise packs, ointment and gauze
* Remove patches' ability to work through hard clothing

Opinions?

1. People - especially miners - will not like that.
2. Ditto. Miners, engineers, firefighters cannot risk removing protective equipment.

you will take like 1 burn damage if you pop off the helmet for a moment to put on a patch.

iamgoofball wrote:i have changed my ways about caring about fast heals being too fast and instead ask "why do we need to nerf it", and "why does medbay need to be slow and nerfed"

if anything we should just buff pills to hold 75u or something, and remove the application delays on bruise/ointment/gauze

Why buff two things when one nerf will do the same?

callanrockslol wrote:

iamgoofball wrote:i have changed my ways about caring about fast heals being too fast and instead ask "why do we need to nerf it", and "why does medbay need to be slow and nerfed"

if anything we should just buff pills to hold 75u or something, and remove the application delays on bruise/ointment/gauze

Why buff two things when one nerf will do the same?

Shh, he just withdrew support for fast med revert goonchem before he changes his mind!

No, he went from "trek chem is dumb because you can heal fast and load up on meds", and after people pointed out that goof chem does the same thing only even worse has gone to "healing slow is dumb".

iamgoofball wrote:i have changed my ways about caring about fast heals being too fast and instead ask "why do we need to nerf it", and "why does medbay need to be slow and nerfed"

"Now that it's directly my fault that heals are too fast, I have decided it's not a problem."

In it for the long con.

iamgoofball wrote:i have changed my ways about caring about fast heals being too fast and instead ask "why do we need to nerf it", and "why does medbay need to be slow and nerfed"

if anything we should just buff pills to hold 75u or something, and remove the application delays on bruise/ointment/gauze

>pills holding 75u
This wouldn't be that bad, but the problem is the actual lack of people who're capable of making anything that needs more than 40u.

I estimate a minor 10% of the server population can make a pill that uses all 50u, even less with those that can make a pill using more than 50u.

As for healing too quickly or healing too slowly, using two burn patches (for one region) in the middle of a fight is not easy.

The before and after results are quite impressive.

HOP Tator couldn't fight off security with just Captains laser, armour and a burn kit. It wasn't possible. He has to stop firing and take his time to heal twice rather than once.

That's the difference goof. Halving it did quite a number. Nerfing it is good. You cannot have a meta-game where having 5 burn patches and armour can survive the entire armoury's laser weapons. That's ridiculous.

I have no idea what is wrong with using bicardine and kelotone anyway if they just have OD tresholds.

CPTANT wrote:I have no idea what is wrong with using bicardine and kelotone anyway if they just have OD tresholds.

Because goof wont give up his baby despite it being nothing but trouble since the beginning, and going against one of the things he originally championed it for.

Look at the self surgery PR for another example :^)

CPTANT wrote:I have no idea what is wrong with using bicardine and kelotone anyway if they just have OD tresholds.

it would mean goof was wrong to change something, and he'd throw a huge shitfit because his ego can't take that and try to turn it into a CODERS VS PLAYERS argument, stir the coderbus into a cauldron of shit, everyone would start flinging shit everywhere, it'd be a real shitticane, and shit wouldn't get done because every shitter would be too busy shitting shit.

Is it time for another "revert goofchem but keep pyrotechnics and OD" thread?

trek chems (or some of them atleast) are back in the game via sleepers (and I think medbots, dunno).
It would be a simple case of turning off some goof healing chems, giving the trek chems recipies again, and raising their OD thresholds a bit (they're at like, 10 or 15 atm I think).

Also there is/was a pr up to make DD heal again, which hilariously enough goof was shitting up about how being able to load up on healing chems to heal fast is OP.

Wouldn't it just make more sense to buff pills to holding 100 and 200 units? And increasing the delay on use of said pills.

But pills are shit currently (for healing) there is nothing useful you can put in them.

John_Oxford wrote:Wouldn't it just make more sense to buff pills to holding 100 and 200 units? And increasing the delay on use of said pills.

No, it wouldn't. And the ChemMaster doesn't support anything past 100u.

lumipharon wrote:But pills are shit currently (for healing) there is nothing useful you can put in them.

Considering Goofchem (which honestly, isn't that bad) compared to Zaerchem, you're right.

But it would be incredibly single minded to dismiss pills just because they incredibly overpowered SS and SP touch heal patches, and the lack of creativity of most chemists.

TechnoAlchemist wrote:Is it time for another "revert goofchem but keep pyrotechnics and OD" thread?

No, and anyone who persists is getting their post deleted.

Hail the brave forummods, protecting us from our own opinions

Stay on topic, or make a thread for Goofchem.

Complain to coderbus if you want a new chemical system.


Question of the century:
Why would anyone make a pill over a patch, except to drop into drinks?

Nobody has given an answer that without reasonable doubt answers this question.

Here is hoping the whole "dropping pills into drinks" thing will actally become a viable murderstrategy once reagent obfuscation is in

J_Madison wrote:Stay on topic, or make a thread for Goofchem.

Complain to coderbus if you want a new chemical system.


Question of the century:
Why would anyone make a pill over a patch, except to drop into drinks?

Nobody has given an answer that without reasonable doubt answers this question.

does charcoal do anything as a patch? i usually make it as a pill.

I fail to see why a differentiation in ingestion based and touch based reagents is interesting in the first place.

TheNightingale wrote:* Add a short (i.e. shorter than current bruise packs/ointment/gauze) delay to patches, and remove the delay from bruise packs, ointment and gauze
Opinions?

I can agree with this. The bruise pack/ointment delay is ridiculously obnoxious in the first place, and the sole getaround that makes using them worthwhile (spamming your sprite 6 times then quickly switching targets while each are applied).

Patches are honestly fine generally speaking though. Not everything has to go through the 'it's reasonably robust! Nerf it!' process that it seems a few people push for. I haven't seen anyone until now complain about patches in this sense anyway.

Super Aggro Crag wrote:

J_Madison wrote:Stay on topic, or make a thread for Goofchem.

Complain to coderbus if you want a new chemical system.


Question of the century:
Why would anyone make a pill over a patch, except to drop into drinks?

Nobody has given an answer that without reasonable doubt answers this question.

does charcoal do anything as a patch? i usually make it as a pill.

Literally works the exact same way, except bypasses masks and protective suits.

As I said, unless you want to slip drugs into people's drinks (god damn who actually does this), there is effectively absolutely NO REASON to use pills, ever.

CPTANT wrote:I fail to see why a differentiation in ingestion based and touch based reagents is interesting in the first place.

You can't eat SS, SP or SF. They'll cause toxin damage and display a message.

Amelius wrote:

TheNightingale wrote:* Add a short (i.e. shorter than current bruise packs/ointment/gauze) delay to patches, and remove the delay from bruise packs, ointment and gauze
Opinions?

I can agree with this. The bruise pack/ointment delay is ridiculously obnoxious in the first place, and the sole getaround that makes using them worthwhile (spamming your sprite 6 times then quickly switching targets while each are applied).

Patches are honestly fine generally speaking though. Not everything has to go through the 'it's reasonably robust! Nerf it!' process that it seems a few people push for. I haven't seen anyone until now complain about patches in this sense anyway.

By the time people complain, it's already too late and absolutely nobody will do anything about it. I.e. Tasers.

Try changing it before shit occurs. Healing obnoxiously quickly makes it ridiculously difficult to kill someone. Think wizard with jaunt and two white medkits. And each item has several uses.

J_Madison wrote:

Super Aggro Crag wrote:

CPTANT wrote:I fail to see why a differentiation in ingestion based and touch based reagents is interesting in the first place.

You can't eat SS, SP or SF. They'll cause toxin damage and display a message.

And this is interesting for gameplay how?

Wyzack wrote:Here is hoping the whole "dropping pills into drinks" thing will actally become a viable murderstrategy once reagent obfuscation is in

it still wont be viable as long as the BIG RED MESSAGE THAT TELLS EVERYBODY WHAT YOU DID is still in

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Wyzack wrote:Here is hoping the whole "dropping pills into drinks" thing will actally become a viable murderstrategy once reagent obfuscation is in

it still wont be viable as long as the BIG RED MESSAGE THAT TELLS EVERYBODY WHAT YOU DID is still in

JOE HYPNOL SLIPS SOMETHING INTO THE GLASS!!!!!!!

newfren wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Wyzack wrote:Here is hoping the whole "dropping pills into drinks" thing will actally become a viable murderstrategy once reagent obfuscation is in

it still wont be viable as long as the BIG RED MESSAGE THAT TELLS EVERYBODY WHAT YOU DID is still in

JOE HYPNOL SLIPS SOMETHING INTO THE GLASS!!!!!!!

I'll remove the big red message, I agree that it is dumb.

CPTANT wrote:

J_Madison wrote:

Super Aggro Crag wrote:

CPTANT wrote:I fail to see why a differentiation in ingestion based and touch based reagents is interesting in the first place.

You can't eat SS, SP or SF. They'll cause toxin damage and display a message.

And this is interesting for gameplay how?

It's not, it's basically hardcoded so it won't bug out when you use target-touch based medicines without actually targetting a place.

Keep the "slips something into the drink" message in as a normal black text thing so you can still notice it if you're not distracted

How about removing YOU FEEL LIKE YOU TOOK TOO MANY ROOFIES so people don't know exactly how they were poisoned

Wyzack wrote:How about removing YOU FEEL LIKE YOU TOOK TOO MANY ROOFIES so people don't know exactly how they were poisoned

i'm pretty sure the only poison with an OD is Histamine. I can add a thing to disable showing OD alerts on certain chems for histamine.

Then again, with med scanners being able to scan chems removing the message entirely could help. Who knows, I'll test run it.

It's most prominent with the jab from a sleepypen telling you that someone's injected you with morphine goof.

Stick to the topic guys.

Make your own topic to complain about that.

being able to poison drinks stealthily just results in no one ever drinking anymore in case they'll get poisoned.

Stick to the fucking topic. Make a new thread if you want to complain about that.
This is the discussion of patches, not parapens or C4.

Stick on topic or don't post at all. This isn't the place to discuss it.

Super Aggro Crag wrote:being able to poison drinks stealthily just results in no one ever drinking anymore in case they'll get poisoned.

Before default reagent viewing mixes that weren't drinks would be "what" and mixes that were majority drinks would appear as that drink you could slip in a minority of poison anyway. It is actually maintaining the status quo but is better for beakers and shit.