Potentially terrible gang idea

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onleavedontatme
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Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by onleavedontatme » #128419

As I mentioned in a previous thread, gangs will hold off on placing a dominator until everyone else is dead and its surrounded in R walls. At that point its just a bunch of standing around waiting for the game to end instead of a climactic battle.

What if there were narrow windows of opportunity for placing the dominator? For example only from 30 to 35 minutes or something. Theyd have to plan ahead and probably wouldnt be in a 100% comfortable position to do it.

Either that or some other incentive to force a final battle instead of killing for 50 minutes.

Or do people not think the way gang ends currently is a problem?
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by PKPenguin321 » #128422

imo, the only thing that really detracts from gang is that if all the lieutenants and the boss of one side die off, there can never be a dominator/the other gang will place a dominator and be uncontested

i think a good fix would make it so that the gang boss can promote more than three people to lieutenant, but when he tries to promote a fourth it will ask him to pick an old lieutenant to demote.
then make it so if the gang boss dies, a lieutenant is selected at random to be the new boss, and the old boss is made a lieutenant.
also, and this is the part i am least sure on, we could make it so if every leader of a gang dies, a random gangster from that gang is made into a boss. (this one is probably controversial since it increases the longevity of the gang the most)

this way we can keep the gang alive, and ensure that a gang will be able to place a dominator as long as the gang itself is not completely wiped out.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by lumipharon » #128424

It's often pretty meh currently, but you can't really blame players - with no dom limit players will do it often because there's no real drawback for doing so.
With only 2 dom attempts however, risking a dom when you're not confident in winning simply doesn't make logical sense - you can recall the shuttle infinitely while building numbers/guns/territory, and weakening your enemy.

That said, you still get dom take down attempts, often which are succesful (usually by one guy with hulk/drill but eh).
Unfortunately this is really just a case of players taking the most efficient course of action over what may end up being the funnest, but with a much higher chance of losing. Can't blame antags for that tbh,and I'm not sure if some arbitrary time restriction will help either.

Look at it this way:
Why would you not convert spam like crazy as fast as possible?
Why would you not murder enemy gang heads at the first opportunity to snip your opposition in the bud?
Why would you risk a confrontation with a enemy force you aren't confident in beating?
Why would you
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Incoming » #128429

Reduce the victory to minor if most of the station is dead. Pyrrhic victory and all that. Create a new gang if one of the starting ones fizzle out before gaining any sort of foothold.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Void Slayer » #128454

Just make the dominators impossible to destroy completely, so that if the gang retakes control of the area they can reactivate it to start the countdown again. That way they can not get infinite chances to make new bases, but they can seize control of a base and start trying a takeover without losing out forever.
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DrPillzRedux
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by DrPillzRedux » #128458

Add another gang, so 3 gangs, not two.
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a correct post by pillz
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Luke Cox
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Luke Cox » #128473

DrPillzRedux wrote:Add another gang, so 3 gangs, not two.
This is already a thing
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by DrPillzRedux » #128605

Luke Cox wrote:
DrPillzRedux wrote:Add another gang, so 3 gangs, not two.
This is already a thing
Add a fourth then.
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a correct post by pillz
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Zilenan91 » #128612

seven gangs. we gotta go big or go home or the long dick of the law will fuck us all
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Sweaterkittens » #128672

I like this. It may not solve all of the issues that gangs bring, but honestly anything is better than what we have now. There's no incentive to place early, and since the shuttle will always be recalled immediately, even destroying a dominator isn't really a win. It just means the round will go for EVEN LONGER while the gang works up the courage to dom again. Giving gangs a short window will make the round play out more like Rev, which I think is good. Right now it's a trial of patience that even when just observing makes me want to tear my hair out.

Some other ideas to fix this problem (also potentially terrible)
  • After 30-35 minutes, Central Command automatically gets wind of the gangs and dispatches the shuttle, which cannot be recalled, but can be delayed by placing a dominator, forcing the gangs to act. Dominators placed before they are "found out" (i.e. before the time limit) get a time bonus, to incentivize gangs to work quickly and make aggressive moves to take over the station.
  • Remove implant breakers and add more robust weaponry to the gang's arsenal (or cheapen the ones they currently have), making the game less of "Who can stealth-convert all of sec first" and more of a bloody shootout which incentivizes gangs playing aggressively and placing a dominator when they have the opening as opposed to waiting until they've converted everyone on the station.
Edit: I am biased because personally I absolutely hate gang, bar-none. It takes a million years longer to play out than rev, gets found out much less easily because pens are stealthier than flashes and fewer jobs have protection (only hardsuits, iirc), usually ends up with the entirety of sec getting converted making it incredibly one-sided, and I may have mentioned it takes a million fucking years to play out. At least in Rev or Cult you can bunker up somewhere or hide out, but in gang you will inevitably get ganged or murdered, and as someone who has antag roles mostly off, it's irritating to be forced to play this shit gamemode for upwards of an hour. In Rev, the only other gamemode where it's as easy/easier to convert people, the rounds are quicker and there's at least some semblance of playing 'the good guy' by bunkering up with sec/getting implanted, even if you still get killed in the end. Please fix this shit gamemode, as I said before, literally anything will make it better than it is now.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by PKPenguin321 » #128678

Zilenan91 wrote:seven gangs. we gotta go big or go home or the long dick of the law will fuck us all
ragin' gangin'
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Ikarrus » #128685

Hey a time limit sounds like it could be fun.

Something like after 45 minutes gangtools can't recall any more, because honestly after that long the rounds gone stale.

Then remove the domination limit because it's not needed any more.
seven gangs. we gotta go big or go home or the long dick of the law will fuck us all
Interestingly enough, I found that the more gangs you add the harder it is for each gang to win because the number of available resources gets eaten up quicker by competition.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Zilenan91 » #128693

True. Honestly if gangs could buy an item that reactivated destroyed dominators that would be great. Would really cut down on those shitty situations where a ripley or a hulk or some other memes busts through the wall and destroys it.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Steelpoint » #128697

A random 30 to 40 minute time limit seems like a good step forward and a easy one at that, once this time limit is reached the shuttle should be called on the standard 10 minute call rate, but a planted Dominator will add five extra minutes to the timer, but only once.

I also like the suggestion of giving Gang's access to cheaper offensive tools and removing the implant breakers, so its a game more of fighting instead of who gets to convert security first.

But I digress, the time limit is a good first step.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Incoming » #128699

limiting gang recalls is fine, hard predictable time limits to rounds aren't. At that point you're just making this more predictable.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by lumipharon » #128701

What if you could only force recall with the dominator itself?

So while you don't have to turn it on, you are forced to deploy one (or pray the other gang does) and recall, which will in turn let people locate your dominator because of the recall trace.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Sweaterkittens » #128704

lumipharon wrote:What if you could only force recall with the dominator itself?

So while you don't have to turn it on, you are forced to deploy one (or pray the other gang does) and recall, which will in turn let people locate your dominator because of the recall trace.

That is a fantastic idea. Forces gangs to commit to an area early, meaning the longer they remain there without dominating the higher the chance that they'll get raided/killed. Although if there's not a dom limit there's nothing stopping them from dropping a dom in maint, recalling, then destroying the dom.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Steelpoint » #128705

There should be a dom limit of two or three doms. After that the Gang Leader's "suspicous device" should overload and blow up.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by lumipharon » #128706

Current limit is at 2.

It would also further solidify the whole "gang base" thing. I remember early on people like oldman really wanted something like this and I feel the same.
Other abilities could be tacked onto the dom as well if you wanted, to have a bit more advanage in setting up a base.

for example, letting anyone in your gang broadcast a gang message by using the dom itself, (rather then bosses only, and ony via the handdevice)
Making it a non portable version of the gangtool, for bosses to use if they lose theirs or whatever,
Having an internal storage accessible by anyone in the gang (or even just anyone that can fight their way to it), to let bosses distribute shit more easily without leaving random shit on the floor. Would go well with the above.
Having a button to activate HARD CORE gang themed flashing lights
etc etc.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Ikarrus » #128711

Sweaterkittens wrote:dropping a dom in maint, recalling, then destroying the dom.
What a terrible waste of 30 points.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Sweaterkittens » #128712

Ikarrus wrote:
Sweaterkittens wrote:dropping a dom in maint, recalling, then destroying the dom.
What a terrible waste of 30 points.
Without a doubt, but when you get to the point that most gang rounds get to, where one gang has almost total control, and is just killing time until they feel absolutely sure they want to drop a dominator, 30 points is nothing to keep the game stalling for as long as they want. Even if it hasn't gotten that far, 30 points is a small price to pay when you can get far more points/make up the difference in the next 5-10 minutes until someone calls the shuttle again.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Amelius » #128773

Steelpoint wrote:I also like the suggestion of giving Gang's access to cheaper offensive tools and removing the implant breakers, so its a game more of fighting instead of who gets to convert security first.
> Converting sec.
> After the nerfs.
> Ever.

They're pure liabilities. Like I did last gang round, it's far more efficient to just kill sec/the Captain/anyone implanted and distribute gear and access to your members. implanted/other gang conversion is far too finicky with the more expensive breakers, the reliance on pens [meaning rank-and-file can't convert with a breaker, and you have to seek out a LT or leader while holding a prisoner while being unable to communicate with them], and the unreliability of your average security officer that often gets them deconverted even if you deconvert them. Since the changes, I've had much more success just going in and doing what I do best.

As a note, buying enough implant breakers to outpace the other gangs (which, I might add can outpace every gang involved's conversion rate alone), due to the increased cost, forces you to expend all your resources to convert those you capture, rather than just kill them. As a result, there's no influence available for weapons for anyone until lategame, and at the same time you don't have enough influence to convert many of those you capture due to the obscene deconversion rate that any reasonably competent sec force has, comparably.

So yeah, it's really not about 'whoever converts sec first wins' any more. It's 'whoever kills sec first wins'.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Amelius » #128774

lumipharon wrote:Current limit is at 2.

It would also further solidify the whole "gang base" thing. I remember early on people like oldman really wanted something like this and I feel the same.
Other abilities could be tacked onto the dom as well if you wanted, to have a bit more advanage in setting up a base.

for example, letting anyone in your gang broadcast a gang message by using the dom itself, (rather then bosses only, and ony via the handdevice)
Making it a non portable version of the gangtool, for bosses to use if they lose theirs or whatever,
Having an internal storage accessible by anyone in the gang (or even just anyone that can fight their way to it), to let bosses distribute shit more easily without leaving random shit on the floor. Would go well with the above.
Having a button to activate HARD CORE gang themed flashing lights
etc etc.
That would be awesome. You'd have to remove the 'DOMINATOR DETECTED' message or they'd be useless, but it'd be pretty fucking awesome if you actually had gang bases in that sense. It could be kinda like CTF - maybe we could even have an alternative gang objective that involves capturing the other gang's dominator or something.
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DemonFiren
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by DemonFiren » #128776

Maybe that might get Security off the gangs' case.
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Amelius
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Amelius » #128801

DemonFiren wrote:Maybe that might get Security off the gangs' case.
It'd be proposing an alternative win-condition, i.e. gangs could have to take over the station OR another dominator.

Sec will always clamp down on gangs even if they're poised to exclusively fight each other, simply because they CAN murder them, and will for the equipment. Furthermore if they didn't, they'd be bored out of their minds anyway.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by Cheimon » #128808

Why would Security ever ignore gangs? They're violent, they spiral out of control, and they normally end up trying to take over the station in nanotrasen's place.

Why would I freely let two violent mobs go after each other anyway? Even if I wanted to, the collateral damage compels you to try and calm things down.
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Re: Potentially terrible gang idea

Post by DemonFiren » #128818

And that's why gang mode sucks, it was allegedly intended to be just the gangs against each other.
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