/tg/Station 13

(I suppose.)

Rev has an 80% winrate for the revolution. So 80% of the time, they can kill all the heads of staff before the head-revs are caught. How do we fix this?

* Loyalty implant crates cost half as much (20, from 40)
* Converting people has a short cooldown - no flash-spam HoPline
* Being beaten in the head has a much higher chance of deconversion - i.e. ~3 hits
* A Revolution chip can be ordered from Cargo for 150 points...
* ... which, when combined with the Captain's pinpointer, points towards the nearest head of staff or revhead.

Cutting loyalty crate costs fucks gangs over as well.

I enjoy rev, even as a head of staff or security as long as other heads of staff don't fuck off into space and hide. The desperation and ferocity of the entire crew against you is exciting, and frightening.

I like this.

Our glorious revolution ought to find victory in blood, sweat and tears, lest we become jaded.

Don't cut loyalty implant costs, and make it so that flash conversions heal 50 brute and 50 burn of the convertees. Counters rev murderboning without actually nerfing them or enforcing rules against them.

you have to take pop count into consideration.
The pop can skew the odds very heavily, same with low/no sec, few heads etc.

Also gamemodes don't need to be trying to get 50% win rates for arbritary reasons.

I don't think every mode needs a 50% winrate.

And we're gonna somehow balance a mode that can take place with anywhere from 20-100 people with one team having numbers ranging from ~2 (CMO and RD lowpop adventures) to a full sec force.

EDIT: Lumi beat me to it

lumipharon wrote:you have to take pop count into consideration.
The pop can skew the odds very heavily, same with low/no sec, few heads etc.

Also gamemodes don't need to be trying to get 50% win rates for arbritary reasons.

This suggestion isn't attempting to even it out, it's attempting to put the odds against the revolutionaries.

It's a thematic thing.

asskek wrote:

lumipharon wrote:you have to take pop count into consideration.
The pop can skew the odds very heavily, same with low/no sec, few heads etc.

Also gamemodes don't need to be trying to get 50% win rates for arbritary reasons.

This suggestion isn't attempting to even it out, it's attempting to put the odds against the revolutionaries.

It's a thematic thing.

The only way to make security consistently beat 50+ people is to give them deathsquad level gear, which needless to say, would upset the balance of other modes.

I would like to question the assumption that very high or very low win rates are a bad thing. What is inherently bad about them?

As I see it, the variable chain of events that each player encounters during the game is significantly more important to the player than the redtext/greentext at the end. Given recent discussions about redtext/greentext being detrimental to the state of the server and role-playing in general, we should be looking at ways to de-emphasise its importance.

i kinda like how one-sided it is when i'm a head in a revolution
fighting against all odds, one versus the many, is quite thrilling. even if it is a losing battle.

Could we have scaling costs for loyalty implants during all rounds?
0-30 current
31-60 10 off
61+ 20 off

revolution could be fucking PERFECT if we didn't have to worry about other gametypes

revstation when

also it really is a matter of opinion which side should dominate.

As someone who prefers playing rev, I like the challenge of OP sec.

Then people could just see how much they cost and shout, "[Common] Hanz Leonid hisses, "IT'sss REVsss!!"

Zilenan91 wrote:Then people could just see how much they cost and shout, "[Common] Hanz Leonid hisses, "IT'sss REVsss!!"

based on pop
not gametype

Zilenan91 wrote:Then people could just see how much they cost and shout, "[Common] Hanz Leonid hisses, "IT'sss REVsss!!"

During all rounds

Rev has an 80% winrate for the revolution.

Does this make it not fun? Rev was my favourite game mode back when things were even more stacked against the heads. And this is coming from someone who played command almost exclusively.

All these proposed changes sound like they'll just make rev even more dull.

Apart from the obvious influence of nerfs to sec weapons and more recently armour I would say a big difference is bleeding.

Beating deconversions can cause bleeding and if officers start bleeding and revs control medical they are mostly fucked also.

Ikarrus wrote: Does this make it not fun? Rev was my favourite game mode back when things were even more stacked against the heads. And this is coming from someone who played command almost exclusively.

All these proposed changes sound like they'll just make rev even more dull.

I don't really believe even with rev head uplinks things have ever been more stacked against the heads.

Didn't you reduce the high pop traitor count to reduce chaos? You don't seem like the kind of person who appreciates rev.

I didn't reduce it, though. If anything I increased it.

SOS wanted to cut down on the number of traitors by changing the coefficient but I offered an alternative to the linear scaling. The result was slightly more traitors in low-medium population rounds, but high-pop rounds were in line with SOS's demands.

I have a graph laying around somewhere where I compared the two (that nobody seems to understand).

If it was mostly a compromise with sos and not something you really wanted you could change it back I suppose.

Basically the problem is sec is balanced for less traitors, meanwhile the value of raw cannon fodder goes up as actual weapons are weakened and rev thrives on poorly though out combat rebalances in favour of the un-armoured and unarmed.

Incomptinence wrote: I don't really believe even with rev head uplinks things have ever been more stacked against the heads.

You're joking right?

>revheads with emags or infinite ebows that knocked out in one shot
>loyalty implants literally didnt exist
>all the revs had stungloves or one hit kill acid spray or something else ridiculous

Rev is way weaker than it used to be.

The problem with Rev is that your not only relying on the numerically weaker side, Security, to be very competent but also to be well staffed.

Security can often go understaffed, and when there's 20 revolutionary's bringing down the door to kill the Captain and the Detective, well saying its one sided is being generous.

Security need to go above and beyond in Rev rounds, a single good/robust Sec/Head cannot stop the Revolution, you need a team and frankly that's very hard to get even in the best of circumstances.

Kor wrote: You're joking right?

>revheads with emags or infinite ebows that knocked out in one shot
>loyalty implants literally didnt exist
>all the revs had stungloves or one hit kill acid spray or something else ridiculous

Rev is way weaker than it used to be.

Maybe it was equivalently strong. Point is having shit up gear is a worse deal than 3 uplinks worth of traitor gear going to the other side.

Absolutely amazing for quick ambush heads wins but 2 of the heads are still severely exposed and killed with extreme ease anyway.

Rev is one of the few modes that IS stacked against sec and the heads. It actually provides challenge from that side, and hence is fun. Victory is more precious for the heads, and so forth.

Not every mode needs a flat 50% winrate. Hell, I'd contend that a low winrate on the part of an antag means low fun for anyone who isn't an antag.

EDIT:

Ikarrus wrote:I didn't reduce it, though. If anything I increased it.

I'm assuming the red scale is the one SoS wanted?

Regardless, why don't we try going back to linear scaling for a while? I feel like it was more popular generally speaking, given that highpop tator is just a snorefest sans the inevitable cryo holoparasite murderboner. The rationale for the scaling implementation was solely to stem greytiding, which WAS a huge problem. Nowadays, it doesn't really happen anywhere near as much, and if we were to also lower the bar in terms of rules for sec I feel like more rounds would be more eventful, while greytiders would get rolled over without administration being involved. At the same time, SoS was the same person who wanted to legislate vastly unpopular anti-murderboner rules, so the position he was acting from was compromised from the start.

Seriously, 8 traitors for 70 people? You'd be lucky if the bored validhunting force going after you the moment someone says 'HELP TRAITOR SCIMAINT' would be fewer than the number of tators IN THE GAME. Plus they aren't allied or anything, and sec at highpop usually outnumbers 8 anyway.

The greatest disadvantage the heads/sec have is that they don't know exactly who is part of the enemy and that most people have that feeling that it's kinda not done to just execute every crewmember without an implant.

Revs don't have that problem. They have a very good image of who the enemy is and can act accordingly.

I think the odds being stacked against the heads is fine in my opinion.

I just personally think the only real problem are horribly one sided situations where there's one CMO and a Warden versus a entire crew of Revs, cue to the CMO being slipped up 60 seconds into the round and/or ten people breaking into the brig.

considering the changes being proposed on the code, that scale head revs to sec/head of staff population, I think that'll solve that annoyance.

the solution is revstation
forced rp and deathsquad sec

If we let the odds stack too far then sec might just start giving up. Will that make for good gameplay?

Incomptinence wrote:If we let the odds stack too far then sec might just start giving up. Will that make for good gameplay?

come on man
we're a validhunting station. (that's not necessarily bad)
you think that'll really happen?

Well sec counts have been pretty low I think.