/tg/Station 13

is there a gameplay reason zeroth laws are not purge-able? presumably, they are programmed with the same law boards tatortots get, and those can be undone by purge.

i just spent a round as a pAI essentially because nobody could purge me, and everyone was obviously very worried that they'd get B& if i went back on my word about being a gud boi when placed back in the core.

i didn't mind generally as the command crew were pretty good sports about it and i got to RP, however now that malf is dead and the AI no longer has a solo antagonist capacity, is it possible to make zeroth traitor laws vulnerable to purge (or other, maybe harder to research boards?)

oh, i guess i should add that to prevent being randomly being de-traitored constantly by captains installing other lawsets, make the AI have to be killed first before it's possible. that'd prevent that sort of thing but retain the functionality hoped for.

also, love ya parsee.

Perhaps when you restore a dead and carded AI (Not neccesarily in that order), make it possible to modify the laws freely?
It also opens up the possibility of some creative traitoring by making the crew kill the AI, then restore it with modified laws.

Traitor laws used to be purgeable a long time ago as I recall, don't remember why they it was removed. If it meant the AI had to be dead first then I wouldn't be completely against it but now that rogue AIs get malf capabilities, having a malf AI completely on the crew's side might be pretty OP.

Random Players wrote:Perhaps when you restore a dead and carded AI (Not neccesarily in that order), make it possible to modify the laws freely?
It also opens up the possibility of some creative traitoring by making the crew kill the AI, then restore it with modified laws.

This. This is the correct answer.

Anonmare wrote:Traitor laws used to be purgeable a long time ago as I recall, don't remember why they it was removed. If it meant the AI had to be dead first then I wouldn't be completely against it but now that rogue AIs get malf capabilities, having a malf AI completely on the crew's side might be pretty OP.

My suggestion could solve that also, in the form of that removal of the zeroth law auto-magically removes the abilities.

Traitor ais cannot be carded even after death. also laws are a string. trust me when i say that ai laws are terible

fuck no. why: the new roundstart meta will become:

"AI, open upload"

purge ==> asimov

bandit wrote:fuck no. why: the new roundstart meta will become:

"AI, open upload"

purge ==> asimov

We're not talking about Law 0.
We're talking about laws that traitors uploaded via hacked modules.

DemonFiren wrote:We're not talking about Law 0.
We're talking about laws that traitors uploaded via hacked modules.

Cik wrote:is there a gameplay reason zeroth laws are not purge-able? presumably, they are programmed with the same law boards tatortots get, and those can be undone by purge.

Well, okay.

Opinion on the matter changed to THIS IS SHIT.

bandit wrote:fuck no. why: the new roundstart meta will become:

"AI, open upload"

purge ==> asimov

The meta could/probably would still become that on the moment where people realise its a traitor round. Or people will periodically wipe just to be sure.


I'd suggest that carding the AI and then using the restorer in RnD should reset laws to Asimov.
I never understood why the AI restorer didn't just "default" the AI, surely thats what its for?

DemonFiren wrote:

bandit wrote:fuck no. why: the new roundstart meta will become:

"AI, open upload"

purge ==> asimov

We're not talking about Law 0.
We're talking about laws that traitors uploaded via hacked modules.

Those are able to removed by the "reset" and "purge" boards. If you are *NOT* able to do this currently, create an issue report, as this would be a bug.

I believe the OP was referring to the antagonist lawset (Traitor AI, Malf AI, even though those are the same thing now...). Those rightfully cannot be removed at all. I suppose killing and repairing the AI to a non-antag state would be interesting, providing the AI could ghost if it does not want to be repaired.

Provided the AI keeps all the malf modules as non-antag, and it can really only be repaired via Integrity console.

Because this would be !!FUN!!

Yeah, no. This is dumb. Does anyone remember lobotomy surgery? It was a rejected pr that would let sec do surgery on traitors to remove their traitor status. If you can detraitor an AI, you should be able to de-antag any antagonist in that case.
I'm fairly certain as well that in silicon policy it was established that any laws uploaded to the AI that would nullify or invalidate it's traitor law were considered null and void.

>if you can de-traitor an AI, you can de-antag anything

no how is that even the case? the only thing that makes the AI is an antag is a law, which changes all the fucking time

you can't de-changeling a fucking changeling, it's literally a genetic freak human spacemonster or whatever

there's nothing inherent about the AI being a traitor that shouldn't be able to changed. it's just a lawset. sure, a sticky one because synditech is fucking hardcore but nothing about it is immutable.

being able to de-traitor traitors is an entirely different issue because actual human traitors can't simply have their mind and entire philosophy overridden with like two button presses

my favorite implementation is it's a function of the restorer, so it cannot simply be constantly done by powergaming captains. if that's the one that's implemented it'd be no problemo

Allowing the ability to remove law 0 doesn't encourage any good behavior but does encourage some bad behavior like killing the AI and reviving it at the drop of a hat.

How does that make sense? People already kill the AI willy nilly.

Many AIs have by poor circumstance been killed over suspicion.

All this would mean is a chance for guilty targets to come back, for the non traitor AIs things would be EXACTLY THE SAME.

Make it so breaking a malf shunted APC give you a corrupted power control board which contains the dead AI and carding it will take it out, in addition to allow carding of traitormalfs AI only if they're dead
By that time it should be possible to put the dead AI card into an integrity restorer and have the OPTION of detraitoring it. (You know, for the cases where another traitor gets the traitor AI and wants it to be still a traitor). Detraitoring should disable all malf abilities including the ability to access its hacked APCs (gl engis!) and forgetting EVERYTHING before the operation making the ex-traitor AI into a new one with ASIMOV. It should probably be able to be interrupted and take like twice as long as normal restoration as it has to purge the syndicate coding.

traitormalf AI can already be carded, see OP where it happened to me

Incomptinence wrote:How does that make sense? People already kill the AI willy nilly.

Many AIs have by poor circumstance been killed over suspicion.

All this would mean is a chance for guilty targets to come back, for the non traitor AIs things would be EXACTLY THE SAME.

Yeah, but it means the murderers can have a "It doesn't matter" attitude with no repercussions. I'd rather add negative consequences for killing nonantag AI's, not encourage it.

It's already fucking terrible when some metagaming engineer locks the emitters, or people in atmos mess with the pumps and their only reason is "why do you care?"

This WILL cause people to storm the upload in the first minute, and either you obey or you're rogue, even if you try to stop them by law 1.

Some people are even proud of bolting the access to the ai core and so on, you can bet your ass validhunters would make a beeline to mess with the AI.

See, the thing stopping people from going "Roundstart, time to card and check AI" is (besides TG's Inqu... I mean, observing admins) the fact that core is usually protected by quite some turrets, with (usually) at least two layers of reinforced walls. While upload does have turrets too, it is way less risky to go there (closer to the exit, medbay and robust assistants/engineers) and if you are gunned down there you will most likely be cloned (besides, you can hear the lasers shooting from outside). Carding operational AI has only two purposes from crew point of view - either you want to check it's laws (if you do it on roundstart it is just as meta as scouting NukeOps shuttle destinations, I think), or you want to upload it to a mech (impossible to do for about first 5~10 minutes, depending on robotics and R&D). Going into the upload, however, can be masked as just "roundstart uploading of some laws", which makes it impossible to determine if it's meta or not.

*EDIT: And even then, the only method of de-antaging every human antag (without "it's his soul inside this golem" or similar things) is making people INTO borgs or AIs, and you need to kill them to do that, grab their brain and stuff it into borg (fairly hard if you discover that this revolver-using greyshirt WAS in fact a changeling, and is mauling you with it's armblade right now), adding a method of de-antaging that requires nothing that isn't provided on roundstart and doesn't even require you to get close to object of de-antaging (and can, in fact, be made from research if it is sufficiently advanced) is a fairly huge nerf to malf/traitor AIs (besides, currently you only need to watch your core, and laugh if meatsacks upload "kill urself" law. With this change, you would need to guard BOTH your core (usually set on either a satelite or fairly isolated part of the station) and upload (to the contrary, quite often located in the MIDDLE of the station (Box, Meta, Dream, Disc), and all upload boards (that are placed somewhere with no turrets).

Roundstart law uploading is pretty meta in itself. If you're going to upload laws at roundstart, they'd better be fun gimmick ones, not Paladin/Robocop/your favourite validhunting laws.

Having "repair a destroyed and carded traitor AI" de-antag it would be interesting, but what if you want to work with the AI as a traitor and they die? A button on the repair console - "Revert all laws" - might be better. (And you'd need to card the AI, of course.)

Since when has locking the emitters been metagaming? Last time I read the guide on setting up the singulo it was literally advised right there as a basic safety protocol. The singularity is very dangerous when released, and there's no benefit whatsoever to leaving them unlocked. At the very least if someone's turning them off I want to know that they've got engineering access so there's a slightly higher chance they know what they're doing. Even if we're assuming release is very unlikely (it's not) there's no good reason not to do it.

Not to mention that emitters can be emagged or blown up, or simply cut off from the power grid.

You can blow field generators themselves, with malf powers.

carding and purging the AI roundstart is super-meta and thus would be a big NO

just make it a function of the restorer like someone said and it's literally NP

Since we have positronic brains this whole discussion is pretty meaningless.

If you want to come back as a non-malf AI just die and go into a positronc brain, you get the same opportunity any other dead/captured antag would.

Void Slayer, you should consider that maybe the crew would like to have a AI that isn't trying to kill them in a way that doesn't mean building a new AI Core is needed.

Yeah the whole point of that traitor round was that I was carrying around the defeated AI (who willingly surrendered after being caught not long into the round) and trying to find an acceptable way to handle it having an immutable traitor law but still functioning for the good of the station.

The solution I had settled on was to set the AI core behind glass walls in the main hall above the bridge, as an 'If AI is killing people, break glass' measure, but alas, admin shenanigans and an especially shitty validhunter ended up ruining the rest of the round before I could finish my RP adventure with the AI.

I think it'd be acceptable to have the RD's integ restorer be able to de-antag an AI. Obviously traitor AIs are going to want to resist being killed and carded for this purpose, but if captains/HoPs/RDs are going to go card the AI to law-check it better be with a damn good suspicion and/or be prepared for the AI to go loud as a consequence to put a stop to it.

If you've managed to card a traitor AI, it's essentially already been defeated. Letting people be able to reset the AI from traitor status gives people a reason to keep that AI around as something besides an upgraded pAI or something to valid on demand.