Department Budgets

[Ikarrus]

I've been thinking about a budget mechanic for SS13. While currency and personal accounts is still off the table, I want to talk about department budgets.

Instead of Cargo hoarding all the points and being the sole judge on what gets imported to the staion, I'd like to spread them out among the department heads. How it'd work is this:

-Every time cargo would normally get points (Exports, Time, Events), it instead gets distributed among the 6 departments: Cargo, Medical, Science, Engineering, Security, and Command
-Heads can spend their department's budget to approve orders without having to go through cargo
-Orders made with department budgets can only be opened with a department ID (So cargo can't steal those PA parts you just ordered)
-Points will not be distributed evenly. They will instead use what has been set by a Budget Management Console in the HoP's office.
-Heads will be automatically notified when an order they made arrives in Cargo
-We'd need an actual currency name, unless we want to stick with NTP (Nanotrasen Points)

These are the effects I want these changes will make:
-Make it easier for heads to get what their departments need
-Less asshole cargo staff hoarding everything for themselves
-More management stuff for heads to do. Workers can ask their heads for supplies. HoP can allocate where the budget goes.
-General station staff can still order things from cargo like normal

This is still rather rudimentary, but I'd like to add more features to it later, like fluctuating income, traitor objectives, and more things to export.

[paprika]

Cargo should deliver supplies that heads order, I agree with that. Cargo should be less about approval and denial unless it's non-heads and more about shipping cargo people order, on time and effectively.

Crates in general need to be rebalanced and restructured, though.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Until money have actual purpose, they are meaningless. Cargo as it is not a purpose, I don't remember the last time I ordered anything from cargo. Not only some high-quality content would have to be added there, but also the kind of content departments depend on. This, in turn, increases the risk that cargo will just not do their job or take all the crates for themselves.

[Jalleo]

Would a better option at the moment be making it so you can order a whole bunch of different items as a person or department and it can get delivered in one crate or more depending in size.

e.g. No more silly crates of metal and then another for gloves if they can both fit in one crate.
Seroiusly making it so there are crates depending on who ordered it or if its for a department may make it better first.

[omnitricks]

No, just no. You're just going to take away one of the few things that distinguish cargo players from assistants, as well as the draw to the job.

[AseaHeru]

I like this idea, although I dont see the need for the locks, and I think that selling things should just give them to cargo.

[Cheimon]

Yes, this sounds good. But I agree with Paprika that crates need some restructuring. Right now they just seem to be a really inconsistent fallback for when people aren't competent, along with a few powerful extras and a few wacky extras.

Maybe competent is the wrong word. But the four most commonly wanted crates seem to be Mech boards, Insulated Gloves, Toolbelts (and other shit not really wanted), and Viruses. But they're all (with the exception of the gloves) easily obtained by a skilled crew in other ways. It's just something for when people aren't around.

If trading was a really important part of station life, then (a) cargo would be a more interesting department, and (b) this suggestion would be much more necessary.

[Ikarrus]

When I ask around the #1 reason why people don't use cargo (and don't WANT to use cargo) is because they have to deal with either absent staff or assholes behind the cargo desk. By providing this alternative I'm hoping it will be easier to add more cargo features down the line, as players would be less resistant of being forced to "interact" with cargo staff.

[omnitricks]

Since you all don't sound like you play cargo, this sounds like a good idea for you since you actually expect cargo to give you stuff but for people that actually play cargo this sucks. Here is to illustrate.

Ways to get points:
1. Send in crates (most common form of getting points by the way)
2. Events (rare and inconsistent but the only other method actually used to get points by cargo)
3. Send in crates with stuff (off the top of my head its plasma from mining, and if I am not mistaken other stuff like seeds)

As you can see the only way for cargo to actually get points is if they work for their points. What you are trying to do is actually punish them if they choose to do their job (which is rare I tell you) I normally have to nag my techs for the first 5 minutes to actually empty the warehouse and most of the time if I am a tech myself I actually run off somewhere myself.

Consider this. When I actually want to collect them all (no easy task I tell you) with a combination of begging the AI, hacking the doors myself or stealing all access I still need around 30 minutes to fill up 4/5 of the shuttle with nearly every crate in the station. That in itself barely passes through 250 points (assuming that I use the starting cargo stuff on essentials) Now with your new suggestion I will only be in control of around 50 points that I worked for over the past 30 minutes? No way in hell am I going to do any work from that point on. If other departments actually get to keep the toys they work for/start with and I can't, I rather not play cargo anymore.

Or when the events happen. Russians? Spiders? Cargo has to fight them off if sec decides not to come (and half the time they don't) if they think they have better things to do like harassing the clown or brigging greyshirts for no reason. So the points I am supposed to get off that is going to go to other departments that contributed nothing? No thanks mate. Losing the shuttle for 5 minutes for a little bit of extra equipment that would most definitely be confiscated by shitsec and heads as well as a now measly amount of points is not worth it either.

Lets not forget that ANYTHING mining gets is normally sent to R&D because herp derp, science is considered way more important than giving cargo more points to use when they need it.

There is actually a reason WHY the points are not being spent willy nilly on what other departments want. Robotics crate? Tell your R&D to do their work. They can get it for you within 5 minutes without cargo wasting any points. Toolbelts? If botany is doing their job you can actually get it no problem (hell even the public garden and perma can make them now) Goats for weeds? If its still early go to the damned kitchen and get Pete. Metal and glass? EVA, assistant storage, etc. For everything you want from cargo there are other ways to get it in the station if you are all not so lazy to expect cargo to give them to you unless its the rare, controlled stuff like a virus crate which you would get no problem if your head of staff asks for it.

Another reason (which I've found out after playing cargo for almost half my games with the other half being scientist?) The points are better used for emergencies. Right now what you are saying is to have the points split up among all the departments just to appease the lazy people that think their departments are so much more important than cargo, cargo cannot order stuff for emergencies where the station overall is more important than those individual departments. Example.
1. Revs = mass loyalty implants
2. Cult = Holy water if there is no chaplain and mass loyalty implants
3. Blob = emitters, lasers, and whatever else you can think of
4. Nuke ops = Guns, guns and more guns
5. Wizard = Guns if not fun wizard
6. Vines = goats, weed control crate
Add whatever situational event that needs an immediate response to the list above. You are going to wish that cargo had saved those points for them instead of giving you that stupid robotics crate/metal/toolbelt that you could have gotten elsewhere if you had just taken the extra time to go to another source that can get them for you for less resources.

Also go check the dictionary for the meaning of the word Quartermaster. I bet you'll get to learn after all I said what the main function of cargo on the station should be and its not to be the crew's Santa Claus like you all seem to want it to be. If the heads of the department really want that robotics crate/virus crate then they can use the command channel to ask the HoP. After all the HoP is still superior to the QM. Instead of giving a shortcut out for people, follow the damned chain of command.

Now you want to talk about absent or assholes behind the desk I am going to ask you. Do you think R&D actually hands out what people need when they ask for it? (psst, no and its the same as cargo) Are you going to give us a public protolathe too so we can get the stuff we need that those people are not giving us? Or is it because you think that science is more important than cargo?

Seriously stop pissing on cargo when you don't play cargo yourself. And don't try to reduce the playability of cargo into nothing more than assistants just because people can't communicate what they want (if you really think cargo is all about hauling crates, thats what you are thinking of them as. Assistants) This game is meant to simulate the workings of the spacestation? Well if someone is being an ass behind the desk, ask nicely instead of pissing them off. Or give them a reason to actually give you what you want, like that diamond mining drill that has not even been made after sending you the materials for over 20 minutes.

And that crate thing, just as bad. Each crate is worth 10 points so each of those crates you want to shortcut through is just reducing the potential points that cargo can get back. Not only that, you are just going to make it harder to verify the manifests especially for the common crates which contents are memorized (yes it may be a shock to you but people actually do verify the manifests, a.k.a. another function of cargo for you guessed it. More points)

Also if you are a vindictive person like me (like most players are anyway) and find out that the points that I have worked for is reallocated to some head that thinks his department is so important, it is very likely that the crate would just be sent back in spite and to get back the 10 points that it is worth. 30 points out of that department's budget into 10 points for cargo. Still a better trade than any. (e.g. I've actually sent back holy water before when the AI panic spent all the points on them eventhough there is a chaplain already forcefeeding everyone in the brig and everyone knew that) In the end, giving other people that are not cargo the ability to spend the points is just plain stupid.

[Lovecraft]

I'd love to see this idea go places!

[Ikarrus]

...

You're making a lot of assumptions here that doesn't line up with how I intend to build this.

For one, I don't plan on straight up splitting the current point rate with the 5 departments. I'm thinking of raising the returns exported items give the station to take into account that all the points are no longer all pooled together. It would need to be raised so you wouldn't have to wait too long to get what you can't afford, and to keep the intention of having it as an incentive to export things at all.

When something is exported from the station, all departments benefit. But they're not equally distributed either. I was thinking of having cargo start off with a higher budget than other departments, as they should still be keeping their role of general supply.

And the idea of automatically notifying people when their orders arrive is to do exactly what you dickishly threaten to do. If you are caught wasting another department's budget they will likely know about it and have you removed from your position.

The intention isn't to screw over cargo, it's to add incentive for others to use cargo. If all things go as planned, cargo's experience shouldn't be all to different, except for a little bit more accountability and in cases where the HoP modifies their cut of the budget (which is handled entirely IC). Cargo would only have a little bit less than what they earn now.

[MisterPerson]

I'd remove the "points for crates" part outright and increase the number of things that give points when shipped via Cargo. And some way to figure out if something will give points in-game (a use for the analyzer?!?!?!)

[Lo6a4evskiy]

The intention isn't to screw over cargo, it's to add incentive for others to use cargo.

For that you need content, not silly budget systems.

[AseaHeru]

I'd remove the "points for crates" part outright and increase the number of things that give points when shipped via Cargo. And some way to figure out if something will give points in-game (a use for the analyzer?!?!?!)

(analyzer has some uses, mostly telling water temp, gasses, mining...)

[Ikarrus]

The intention isn't to screw over cargo, it's to add incentive for others to use cargo.

For that you need content, not silly budget systems.

One of the things I want to add in the future is higher-end rewards for cargo points. But I don't think it's going to be as effective if cargo is the only one who benefits from other department's hard work.

[Ikarrus]

I'd remove the "points for crates" part outright and increase the number of things that give points when shipped via Cargo. And some way to figure out if something will give points in-game (a use for the analyzer?!?!?!)

I was thinking about either a list in the QM's office or a list of exportables in the budget consoles.

[AseaHeru]

Make it so that if a department gets enough points they can buy some mega-rare thing?
Like the mech teleporter for science?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

We have access restrictions on crates for that.

[Cheridan]

We have access restrictions on crates for that.

Except the locks do absolutely nothing to ensure the people who are supposed to be getting an item actually gets it.
It just means the cargo techs have to jump through a hoop before they can screw around and get whatever they want.

The root problem of Guncargo, which was band-aided over by increasing crate health, was that cargo can order whatever the heck they want with next to 0 oversight.

Unless a change like this goes through, the state of cargo will remain exactly as it is: a place that places orders first for itself, and then maybe for others if they feel like.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Okay. Then what's the point of having cargo crew? It'd be much easier and reliable to have an automated system.

[Apsis]

Unless a change like this goes through, the state of cargo will remain exactly as it is: a place that places orders first for itself, and then maybe for others if they feel like.

Every job has perks for it's workers though.

[Rolan7]

Okay. Then what's the point of having cargo crew? It'd be much easier and reliable to have an automated system.

Exactly, it'd be too easy and reliable. There's a good middle ground between cargo workers having stealthy access to everything on the menu, and a popular department being replaced by teleporters or something.

This sounds great, Ikarrus. Ideas like this have been popular in the past, and I think they only really need some good dev time to make a reality.

omnitricks: Yes, seeds give cargo points! Glad to see at least someone knows about this. I think it's mostly for mutant plant types, with bonus points for high-quality seeds. This was meant to be a start, with other departments producing other materials for points, but I had to hiatus.

From memory:
Engineering: "energy cores" filled at SMESes, essentially selling power (also a way to store more, but the cores would be very expensive to make)
Medical: DNA and beneficial viruses
Chemistry: Healing chems, with the bounty being very low except during a special event
Research: Research levels duh.
Robotics: If someone really wanted to ship a mech, that should get some points (more a way to remove it from the round)

I had a lot more ideas in this thread:
http://www.ss13.eu/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=416
(I would copy the bbcode here in a spoiler, but it's taking forever to grep through my archive of the forums). It mostly focused on expanding the selling of items, involving the whole station, and also encouraging cargo to sell certain resources at a good time.

[omnitricks]

Okay. Then what's the point of having cargo crew? It'd be much easier and reliable to have an automated system.

This. The way this change looks to be, it is more to the benefit of other departments of the station to the detriment of cargo where the other departments all already have their own sthick and cargo is nothing more than assistants being able to order stuff.

omnitricks: Yes, seeds give cargo points! Glad to see at least someone knows about this. I think it's mostly for mutant plant types, with bonus points for high-quality seeds. This was meant to be a start, with other departments producing other materials for points, but I had to hiatus.

From memory:
Engineering: "energy cores" filled at SMESes, essentially selling power (also a way to store more, but the cores would be very expensive to make)
Medical: DNA and beneficial viruses
Chemistry: Healing chems, with the bounty being very low except during a special event
Research: Research levels duh.
Robotics: If someone really wanted to ship a mech, that should get some points (more a way to remove it from the round)

I had a lot more ideas in this thread:
http://www.ss13.eu/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=416
(I would copy the bbcode here in a spoiler, but it's taking forever to grep through my archive of the forums). It mostly focused on expanding the selling of items, involving the whole station, and also encouraging cargo to sell certain resources at a good time.

Ah good to know its not the clown being crazy when he shipped off the bluespace tomatoes seeds last time. If all these items from the other departments actually give points the way you say they do, I'm pretty sure cargo would not mind giving what other departments want (as long as they contribute to the cargo points pool) Heck, instead of that crappy departmental budget, expand on this list more, for what other departments can do for cargo instead of what other departments forever expect from cargo. In fact I'm pretty sure for some of these stuff those selfish cargonians would be willing to dip into their own points to...acquire for themselves instead of shipping them back.

Don't know if I should put this in this thread or the other but just a suggestion, maybe for sec a punchcard for when they stay in their sec outpost in cargo? Cargo needs their dedicated officer and sec always need them points from cargo (instead of raiding cargo for the tiniest of reasons just because they can)

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Exactly, it'd be too easy and reliable. There's a good middle ground between cargo workers having stealthy access to everything on the menu, and a popular department being replaced by teleporters or something.

Okay. So it's like cargo cannot order things, only departments can? Let's say nobody orders anything. Cargo has absolutely nothing to do. Let's say something orders something. Cargo is just there to pull the crate?

That's retarded.

[paprika]

If someone roundstart spawns as warden/hos they should be able to pick the 'loadout' of the armory, ablative always included of course.

[Psyentific]

That'd actually be a really neat feature.

[Apsis]

Exactly, it'd be too easy and reliable. There's a good middle ground between cargo workers having stealthy access to everything on the menu, and a popular department being replaced by teleporters or something.

Okay. So it's like cargo cannot order things, only departments can? Let's say nobody orders anything. Cargo has absolutely nothing to do. Let's say something orders something. Cargo is just there to pull the crate?

That's retarded.

Well, it's also possible for crates to go missing, so they never reach that delivery stage. Especially if you don't give the cargo workers additional perks to even it out. Assholes will always be there in every department to deny reasonable requests, and hoard their workplace loot. It's like putting all the medical items in a locked locker because there's a small chance a medical doctor is an ass. Don't punish good cargo techs with more loops.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Besides, the reason people don't order anything is because there is nothing to order.

[callanrockslol]

If we are going to have money can we just go full currency?

Department Budgets seem sort of empty when all you can do is steal it from another department for more monkey crates.

Making more exports for points would work well with the system we have already.

[Stickymayhem]

I'd remove the "points for crates" part outright and increase the number of things that give points when shipped via Cargo. And some way to figure out if something will give points in-game (a use for the analyzer?!?!?!)

I was thinking about either a list in the QM's office or a list of exportables in the budget consoles.

A list of about ten exports would work, and each round the value could change to prevent cargo rushing for the same materials every single round.

[Malkevin]

There is actually a reason WHY the points are not being spent willy nilly on what other departments want. Robotics crate? Tell your R&D to do their work. They can get it for you within 5 minutes without cargo wasting any points. Toolbelts? If botany is doing their job you can actually get it no problem (hell even the public garden and perma can make them now) Goats for weeds? If its still early go to the damned kitchen and get Pete. Metal and glass? EVA, assistant storage, etc. For everything you want from cargo there are other ways to get it in the station if you are all not so lazy to expect cargo to give them to you unless its the rare, controlled stuff like a virus crate which you would get no problem if your head of staff asks for it.

>Go to supply department for supplies
>Get told to go elsewhere

Don't you see the problem with this?
Its that whole hoarders complex (and usually for themselves) that turns people off using cargo.


I actually had an idea a while back that would replace the cargo department with a fully automated system, it would actually be really easy to implement because the infrastructure is already there.
Cargo ordering system would let you select a destination from the preset list the destination taggers use.
Shuttle would come after a preset grace period when the first crate is ordered, this would give time to order more stuff and cancel orders you have made.
Shuttle would then arrive with the crates prewrapped in package wrapping which is also pre-tagged with the selected destination.
The conveyor floor of the shuttle would then turn on, moving the crates onto a central conveyor which would feed the crates into a disposal chute inlet. After that the crates travel through the pipes to their destination, ready to be collected and opened by the happy customer.

[Steelpoint]

From my experience, I dislike cargo and the people within. Cargo Tech's the the QM are usually more concerned with kitting themselves out with equipment and acting like assistants. More often than not my requests for legitimate orders are turned down or turned into a horse chase.

In fact, one time when I was the Captain I asked the QM to order me a supply crate (It was a Botany Crate) since he refused it for the Botanist. The QM refused to order the crate, I then ordered him to order the crate and he then retorted I need to stamp several forms with my Captain's Stamp. I finally warned him to order the crate, as a direct order as the Captain and when he still refused I had him arrested by Security and demoted.

Make interacting with Cargo a more pleasant experience, hell give Cargo an incentive to order crates instead of hoarding points. As well as give more things for Cargo to order and/or do such as setting up the food/drink machines. Cause right now I don't like interacting with Cargo.

TL:DR, I should not have to bloody arrest the QM just to order a fucking botany crate as the Captain.

[AseaHeru]

Wow, its gotten that bad?
Im gonna have to be cargo more often then...

[Psyentific]

Wow, its gotten that bad?
Im gonna have to be cargo more often then...

Yeah. Part of the problem is bad players, but the other part is that 90% of crates can be blown off because "git gud". The above botany crate is a perfect example - There's almost nothing Cargo can order or make that isn't available somewhere else. The only things Cargo has that the station doesn't are Virus crates, Hat crates, and maybe some uniforms or something.

[Incomptinence]

That is so absurdly mean spirited to any new player. You might as well be denying shipments of training wheels at a real life harbor.

[Psyentific]

That is so absurdly mean spirited to any new player. You might as well be denying shipments of training wheels at a real life harbor.

Let me rephrase that, then.

75% of crates are things you already have and almost never need more of. Example - Power cell crate
10% of crates are things you might run out of. Example - Insulated gloves
5% of crates are things you don't have but don't want. Example - Bureaucracy crate
5% of crates are things you don't have but do want. Example - Virus crate
5% of crates are niche things you really want in an emergency. Example - Weed Control crate.

Taking that as a mostly accurate abstraction, 10% of crates are important, useful, or 'shortcut' things that don't already exist on station, and the vast majority of crates are never even ordered. Why does the Fuel Tank crate exist at all?

If you want to fix cargo, if you want to make people want to go there? Give cargo more stuff like Virus Crates; stuff that makes peoples job easier and quicker. Mid-game slimes for Xenobio, various items for R&D tech levels. Pre-made pill bottles of 5chem healing mix for Medbay. Replace the taser crate with a stun revolver crate, why not. Engineering? Floorbots. A crate full of six floorbots.

If you want to fix Cargo, give it things that people don't already have. Give it things that aren't a crutch, give it things that people actually want. No, shiny-fucking-hats are not an endgame.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Yes. There's no need to supply the station that's self-sustaining for the most part. We need some high-level stuff that requires cargo involvement.

Also nerf fucking vending machines

[paprika]

Yeah raisins are a little out of hand

[AseaHeru]

I order Bureaucracy crates...
Mostly because I try to get people to scribble halfway sane reasons...

And if they want a gun, I want someone in charge of guns to stamp that shit so I dont get brigged.

[Steelpoint]

Speaking of guns, there needs to be a offical way for the Head of Security to hand out firearm licenses, as in so Beepsky won't arrest you for holding a approved firearm.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Beepsky is not using that mode by default. Don't use it if you want civilians to have guns. Bots already have aimbot, the downside to that is lack of actual intellect.

[AseaHeru]

If we had a weapon-authorization access instead of just using brig that might work.

But then you have things like the "only allowed to be armed in area X" issue...

[Kelenius]

Actually, separating armory access and weapon authorization access sounds like a good idea.

[Malkevin]

Thats a good idea, HoSes can use the ID computers now yes?

[Steelpoint]

Correct, all head's ID Card's can use a ID Computer to adjust access to any of their departments.

[paprika]

Dragging people to the checkpoint and demoting them sure is fun.

[Ikarrus]

Box has one on the bridge as well, and I think it's the same for metastation.

[paprika]

Oh, excellent, I'll keep that in mind.

[Fatal]

Dividing up the budget seems like a great idea, but how about making it so the ordering console only gives you a list of things to order depending on what ID you have on

That should hopefully reduce the amount of hoarders in cargo ordering their toolbelts and gloves and shit they don't need, yet asking you if you REALLY need that disabler crate when they have 150 points and my crate costs 10

Adding more crates for more usefulness would be nice for some departments, cargo is redundant for some purposes because the station has so much stuff, unless the round is real long you have no need for extra stuff

Id like to see some crates for emergency purposes, such as a crate full of stuff to build a basic telecomms should the original be destroyed

[AseaHeru]

That second idea sounds good, the first sounds like a meh thing.

Perhaps give a reason for the "reason" heading? Make it a crime to fraudulently order things or somesutch.