Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

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Luke Cox
 
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Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:21 am #152179

One of the biggest draws of Space Station 13 is the idea of multiple professions working together to achieve things, with a feeling of dread and paranoia knowing that everything you worked on will be fucked at some point. I feel like the game is in a much better place than most people give it credit for, but there are some easy to implement but game-changing ideas that I think would drastically improve interplay between departments, indirectly buff traitors, and make the game feel much more alive altogether. I've thought about the issue for quite some time, and I'm basing it on the following beliefs I have about how gameplay should be in Space Station 13:

- Every department should be able to function minimally independently, but should never be able to reach full production in isolation
- There should be a distinct supply chain, with every department contributing to the whole
- Every department should provide at least one resource and one service (security is a special case)
- Traitors sabotaging a department should have a notable effect on the entire station
- Having people going back and forth in the halls is good for antags

That said, he's how I feel about each department, how they fit into the chain, and what should be changed. Suggestions in bold are the big/controversial ones.

Supply (Resource: Minerals | Service: Mail)

Supply is probably in the best place out of all the departments. Miners are capable of functioning on their own, but they require mechs and/or upgraded equipment to really tear through the asteroid. Their access to these things is dependent upon their performance too. Plenty of opportunities for antags as well. Honestly, there's not a lot I would change here.
- Allow items other than plasma to be shipped to centcom for supply points. Let everybody contribute to what is basically the station's currency
- Add some department-produced items to be ordered from centcom for a severely inflated price, so that lowpop rounds aren't totally fucked

Medical (Resource: Chemicals | Service: Healing, Surgery)
Medical in its current state can function at full capacity without any outside assistance. They're by far the most guilty of this out of any department, even science. On the bright side, all sorts of people rely on the services and resources they provide, with chemicals and healing both being invaluable. Honestly, I would change a ton of things about medical, but even just these changes would make a world of difference:
- Cryo chemicals drain several times faster, and cryoxadone only heals while the patient is in crit. Right now, cryo is just fire-and-forget. Ideally, it should function as an emergency measure only. Sleepers and pills from chemistry should be the primary means of healing. We would likely see more chemicals in cryotubes, and sabotage would be less likely to be noticed until it's too late
- You can't see what chemicals are in a cryotube unless you either examine it with science goggles. Cryo is too difficult to sabotage as it is.
- Sleepers heal faster when upgraded, as well as healing more damage types. Sleepers are kind of shit right now, and buffing them via upgrades would improve medical's interaction with science

Science (Resource: Research | Service: Slime Extracts, Toxins, Superpowers)
Science is easily the most controversial department in the game at the moment, and with good reason. So long as they have access to minerals, they can easily become neigh-invincible killing machines with little effort. Contrary to popular sentiments, I would much rather nerf science by making their toys more difficult to obtain than remove them entirely. Xenobio should be the "solo" option for lowpop or understaffed science. R&D being nearly independent is just too powerful. You may notice a few things missing from my list of their services. Here's why:

- Move Robotics to Engineering. It just makes sense, both thematically and gameplay-wise. Science is capable of producing too much shit as it is. R&D will be indirectly nerfed by having to either skip syringe guns or run to robotics to get them
- Move the circuit printer to engineering and remove components from the protolathe If science wants to hole up in an autism fort, they should have to venture out into the halls and risk getting murdered in the long corridor leading up to engineering. Also prevents science from hoarding minerals, which is another reason why R&D is game-breaking: all other departments have to share different resources, while R&D gets to sit on all the minerals.
- Replace the experimentor lab with something not shit. Seriously coderbus, it's been like a year


Engineering (Resource: Power, Air | Service: Repairs, Robotics, Upgrades)

Engineering as it is can be painfully dull. It's common for engineers to fuck off and do nothing productive once the engine is set up. While it's great that they're the least likely to camp out in their department all round, they need a real job to do when the station isn't on fire. Here's how we end the snoozefest:
- Give Engineering a new lathe that makes components and make engineering responsible for upgrades. Engineers should be running around the station as it is. This just makes sense. Same goes for building machines. They're engineers, they build shit.
- Remove surgical tools from the newly relocated Robotics. Would you use a garage as an operating room? Didn't think so. Plus, the operating room in medical is woefully underused. Medical should do limb augmentations and brain removals.


The distinct supply change these changes would create would give antags the single biggest buff they're ever gotten. Bombings and killing sprees would go from being annoyances to crippling. Fuck with any department, and life becomes significantly harder for the others.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby DemonFiren » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:24 am #152198

Remove which components? All stock parts?
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby ClumsyAlcoholic » Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:24 pm #152211

Remove Luke Cox from from life.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Cheimon » Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:45 pm #152240

I think all these ideas are pretty good, with the exception of surgery removal from robotics. Garage as operating room is totally within the flavour of the robotics lab. Having said that, adding some anaesthetic would make it a lot more risky and therefore more interesting.

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Anonmare » Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:57 pm #152245

Didn't robo used to be a part of engineering in some, distant world long ago?
Also yeah, removing R&D's circuit imprinter would go a long way to nerfing science since with it they can just become an omni-department.

I'd put an autolathe in either Engineering's main area or outside in the hall to be honest. I'd also give roboticists basic sci access and an engineering radio key (like a geneticist does with medical).
As for surgery, I though about suggesting that unanaethestised patients taking brute damage every step in surgery - with torso and head surgeries usually knocking people in crit. But, I was concerned that would reduce surgery usage even further.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Smeller » Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:34 pm #152251

Man i loved robotics being a part of engineering, 100% support the idea, with an exception of surgery tools removal.

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:37 pm #152252

I'll look into a test run on those cryo changes.

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Helios » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:14 pm #152257

Luke Cox wrote:Supply (Resource: Minerals | Service: Mail)[/u]

- Allow items other than plasma to be shipped to centcom for supply points. Let everybody contribute to what is basically the station's currency

This is already done.
Science disc and botany stuff can be sent back. And I thought organs inside coolers but I never tried it

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby kevinz000 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:34 pm #152258

Luke
There's just ONE problem
What's there to stop from rebuilding the glory and power you took from them with a circuit imprinter?
Engis have enough stuff to do. I'm actually pretty busy when I'm engi. Can't imagine having to do R&D in between hull breaches and plasma fires and crap.
edit: Also, this might be a bit too powerful a buff for antags. Rounds will become shorter as one bomb can take out a ton of important resources.
I'd much rather have longer rounds then shorter ones.

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Wyzack » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:40 pm #152259

Extend minimum shuttle call timer to force people to fucking deal with conflict and strife rather than run away for another roll at antag
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:10 pm #152261

kevinz000 wrote:Luke
There's just ONE problem
What's there to stop from rebuilding the glory and power you took from them with a circuit imprinter?
Engis have enough stuff to do. I'm actually pretty busy when I'm engi. Can't imagine having to do R&D in between hull breaches and plasma fires and crap.
edit: Also, this might be a bit too powerful a buff for antags. Rounds will become shorter as one bomb can take out a ton of important resources.
I'd much rather have longer rounds then shorter ones.

Repairs would still be possible. In fact, the whole point of giving engineering the ability to make components and circuits is so that they can actually fix machines too. Engineers wouldn't be responsible for R&D. Destructive analyzer would still be located in R&D, along with the regular protolathe.

Cheimon wrote:I think all these ideas are pretty good, with the exception of surgery removal from robotics. Garage as operating room is totally within the flavour of the robotics lab. Having said that, adding some anaesthetic would make it a lot more risky and therefore more interesting.

The reasoning behind removing surgery tools from Robotics is to give doctors something to in the long stretches when nobody is hurt, as well as giving the operating room an actual use. It also forces doctors to leave medbay or robiticists to leave robotics, making them more vulnerable to antagonists.
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PostThis post was deleted by Luke Cox on Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:20 pm.
Reason: double post

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Zilenan91 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:46 pm #152296

iamgoofball wrote:I'll look into a test run on those cryo changes.



aka deconstruct cryo every single round from then on for the matter bins because it's actually useless
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Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:54 pm #152300

Zilenan91 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:I'll look into a test run on those cryo changes.



aka deconstruct cryo every single round from then on for the matter bins because it's actually useless

would you rather we just remove cryo entirely
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Zilenan91 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:59 pm #152303

If those changes went through, yes, because the only function it would have would be to lock people in just above crit forever, unable to ghost out.
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Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:01 pm #152304

Zilenan91 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:I'll look into a test run on those cryo changes.



aka deconstruct cryo every single round from then on for the matter bins because it's actually useless

And then have everybody in crit die. Ideally, cryo should be what you stuff people on the brink of death in. CPR is incredibly time-consuming. Also, with my proposed changes you'd still be able to stuff other healing chems into cryo to heal people beyond crit. It's just that the sleeper would be more economical in that respect. In addition, you could resist out of it.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Zilenan91 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:03 pm #152307

So why would this be needed other than trying to hide our shitty medical system by making it more time consuming to heal?
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Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:26 pm #152313

Zilenan91 wrote:So why would this be needed other than trying to hide our shitty medical system by making it more time consuming to heal?

I'm not sure what you want done. Like I said, there's a ton I would overhaul with medical. For the moment, the best thing we can do is make it take actual effort to heal people from crit. Injury and death is too trivial at the moment. Unless you want to personally overhaul the medical system (and if it means a copy/paste from another system like newcult, please don't), this is all that can be done.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Zilenan91 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:27 pm #152314

Please don't code medical. If you want there to be actual effort required in healing people then we need a better medical system, not making healing our flour bags of health more tedious and boring.
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Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby TheNightingale » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:28 pm #152315

Baymed?

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Zilenan91 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:29 pm #152316

Baymed is too much for our server. What we want is either HippieMed or ParadiseMed.
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Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:50 pm #152319

Are you seriously saying that it's too difficult for doctors to move people from cryo to sleepers?
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Zilenan91 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:52 pm #152320

I'm saying it's too tedious for the person involved. Our medical system is simple, so our method of healing has to be simple, not a more than 2 step process.
Spoiler:
Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby TheNightingale » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:03 am #152326

Given that you can fix literally anything (/literally/ anything, up to and including death) using Chemistry anyway, it's about as simple as it gets at the moment.

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:35 am #152329

Zilenan91 wrote:I'm saying it's too tedious for the person involved. Our medical system is simple, so our method of healing has to be simple, not a more than 2 step process.

For chemists:
1. Make Cryoxodone (optional: make other healing chems too)
2. Place into cryotube and turn on freezer

For doctors
1. If in crit, place into cryotube until out of crit
2. Move non-crit patient to sleeper and push appropriate buttons
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby iamgoofball » Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:37 am #152374

Zilenan91 wrote:Baymed is too much for our server. What we want is either HippieMed or ParadiseMed.

As someone who has coded for both of those servers:

Hippie med is tg med. Like, literally. I don't think they've added anything new.

Paradise med is baymed with more goonchems ported.

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Zilenan91 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:48 am #152376

Hippie med is /tg/ med but it refactored its weapons to do a lot more bleeding, so blood is far more valuable and far easier to lose there, which is a much better balance than making everything tedious as fuck to heal you.
Spoiler:
Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:55 am #152377

At the very least, what does everybody think of the science and engineering changes? Those are the ones I feel strongly about.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby phil235 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:52 am #152425

I agree with all these proposals, except for cryo. If you can't heal people not in crit then you can't heal cellular damage on cloned patient.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby TheNightingale » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:59 am #152428

Luke Cox wrote:At the very least, what does everybody think of the science and engineering changes? Those are the ones I feel strongly about.


It'd ruin my R&D guide, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I like the idea of moving Robotics to Engineering; you don't even need to give them their own imprinter, since Robotics already has one (and a console to sync the tech levels). Removing Robotics' surgery tools would mean they'd either have to print some off, or rely on Medical for the debraining. I'm not so keen on removing stock parts from the Protolathe, though; remember that, without a Circuit Imprinter, they can't actually make anything to upgrade with them anyway.

Maybe have Autolathes able to make upgraded stock parts, including RPEDs (they can already make T1 parts like basic matter bins) when synced to a console with high enough tech levels? Give Engineering an Autolathe, near the Robotics research console (which itself is linked to the Robotics circuit imprinter), then when R&D gets the levels for better stock parts, they can both sync, and Engineering can print upgrades from the Autolathe.

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby iamgoofball » Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:25 pm #152512

phil235 wrote:I agree with all these proposals, except for cryo. If you can't heal people not in crit then you can't heal cellular damage on cloned patient.

easy fix

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby MrStonedOne » Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:41 pm #152518

Make it so the auto lathe can steal small designs from r&d's servers if r&d has gotten to a level above the minimum required for that design.

This should only work for items small enough to fit in a pocket, like stock parts and other miscellaneous shit.

Make a small autolathe that can only build things that are small enough to fit in a pocket, give one to engineering.

Now engineering can download stock part designs from r&d, and build/upgrade shit, but if they want to be able to do it quicker, they need to get a RPED from r&d.


BAM! Science has been split between science and engineering without actually changing anything about science.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:04 pm #152524

MrStonedOne wrote:Make it so the auto lathe can steal small designs from r&d's servers if r&d has gotten to a level above the minimum required for that design.

This should only work for items small enough to fit in a pocket, like stock parts and other miscellaneous shit.

Make a small autolathe that can only build things that are small enough to fit in a pocket, give one to engineering.

Now engineering can download stock part designs from r&d, and build/upgrade shit, but if they want to be able to do it quicker, they need to get a RPED from r&d.


BAM! Science has been split between science and engineering without actually changing anything about science.

This would be perfect, honestly
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:58 pm #152571

MrStonedOne wrote:Make it so the auto lathe can steal small designs from r&d's servers if r&d has gotten to a level above the minimum required for that design.

This should only work for items small enough to fit in a pocket, like stock parts and other miscellaneous shit.

Make a small autolathe that can only build things that are small enough to fit in a pocket, give one to engineering.

Now engineering can download stock part designs from r&d, and build/upgrade shit, but if they want to be able to do it quicker, they need to get a RPED from r&d.


BAM! Science has been split between science and engineering without actually changing anything about science.

I considered something like this, but half the reason why I want to remove the circuit imprinter and stock parts is to stop autism fort science. I considered just removing the circuit imprinter, but all it takes is one trip to robotics to build everything then. Having to haul a bunch of stock parts for each machine is much more of a pain in the ass. If science wants to go solo autism, Xenobio has plenty. Otherwise, they need to work for their shit. It makes more sense for science to discover the parts and for engineering to actually manufacture and use them. I even considered moving the protolathe to engineering completely, but I decided that would nerf science a little too hard and just transfer the problem to engineering.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby onleavedontatme » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:07 pm #152751

Well RD just got the ability to create the infinite heal mediguns (albiet mecha mounted) so we are off to a good start on these ideas.

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:08 pm #152790

Since my OP is a bit of a mouthfull, here's a condensed list of things the suggestions I find the most pressing. Most of these can be implemented pretty easily.

- Move Robotics to Engineering. In Box, it can go where the construction site is. Meta might take a little more rearranging, but if you could move the CE's office it could go there.
- Remove stock parts from the protolathe, make a new lathe that makes only stock parts and add it to engineering
- Remove the circuit printer from R&D
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby TheNightingale » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:33 pm #152810

Removing the stock parts from the protolathe is what bugs me. Without a circuit imprinter, Science can't actually use them for anything, so removing them doesn't solve anything either. Perhaps make upgraded stock parts available in Engi's autolathe (give them one of these) when it's linked to their Robotics research console?

TL;DR:
* Move Robotics to Engineering
* Remove R&D's circuit imprinter (but keep the Robotics one)
* Add an autolathe to Engineering
* Add sync functionality between autolathes and research consoles
* Allow upgraded stock parts to be made in autolathes

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:24 am #152850

TheNightingale wrote:Removing the stock parts from the protolathe is what bugs me. Without a circuit imprinter, Science can't actually use them for anything, so removing them doesn't solve anything either. Perhaps make upgraded stock parts available in Engi's autolathe (give them one of these) when it's linked to their Robotics research console?

TL;DR:
* Move Robotics to Engineering
* Remove R&D's circuit imprinter (but keep the Robotics one)
* Add an autolathe to Engineering
* Add sync functionality between autolathes and research consoles
* Allow upgraded stock parts to be made in autolathes

My main concern is stopping R&D from becoming gods. At the very least, they shouldn't be able to make upgraded stock parts. Science having access to high-grade components makes them too powerful.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Actionb » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:55 pm #152945

Stop stop stop STOP.
You're all going into a what-if frenzy.

Give Engineering a new lathe that makes components and make engineering responsible for upgrades.
First of all, most of the machines that benefit from upgrades are in medbay, science and robotics. There is no point upgrading anything else:
- upgraded engineering machines would include: SMES (we have enough power as it is), emitters (only useful during blob), pacman (lol) and APC power cells (in case you are not doing your engi job... but then why are you upgrading). The only machine that benefits immensly from upgrades is the turbine - just yet another power source. Upgrade score: whybother/10
- kitchen: if you have a chef, he will make tons of food regardless. If you don't have one, upgraded microwaves are pointless. 1/10
- upgrading chargers: great during blob, but boy must you be bored during no-blob to do this. 0/10

Now, why would you move the responsibility for upgrading medbay, science and robotics away from science - especially if they are going to have to upgrade their own machinery themselves anyway to progress with research.
All you need to print to do 99% of the worthwhile upgrades is: 15 manips, 10-15 bins, 10 lasers, 5 scanning modules (and 15 capacitors if you care about mechbay). Printing this stuff is a two minute job. Doing the upgrade run starting at the ORM in cargo, going through medbay and then back to science via robotics with a RPED takes a few more minutes - or 30 seconds if you use a bluespess RPED and sec cameras. This bit of work won't make a boring engi round feel great.
Giving engineering the ability to upgrade stuff is fine - trying to base upgrades solely on engineering when science is inevitably going to do upgrades anyway, just feels arbitrary. A change for the sake of changing something.
Plus: engineering can do that shit already by having tech storage access for the protolathe board. Have a guess why that never happens though?


- Move Robotics to Engineering.
Hi nostalgia, I remember you!
But god why. Robotics and science are BFFs, soulmates, weirdly grown siamese twins doing a perpetual 69er. They belong together. They rely on each other. You wouldn't move genetics cloning to cargo either, now would you?
Well, technically robotics relies on science more than the other way around. You don't need syringe guns to finish research (EMP 5 with adv.spectrometer, Bio 5 with RMMIs, bluespace 3+ with crystals), but it sure helps. Robotics needs research to produce anything but basic cyborgs, they need upgrades to work at a decent pace and most importantly: THEY NEED MINING MATERIALS for fancy stuff.

As it is right now, either a scientist or a roboticist grabs everything out of the ORM, the protolathe gets its fair share to facilitate research and upgrades and the rest goes into the exofabs. There's barely any competetion over materials, unless the nerd running the lab is an autistic version of a science-gollum.
Now imagine engineering, robotics and science having to fight over materials. Everyone knows modesty is not a virtue of SS13 players, so the first engi arriving at the ORM grabs everything under the pretense of needing it for upgrades. After enough begging or hacking, a roboticist may get their hands on some of the goodies. Dutifully, scientists have done their work and somehow, miraculously, managed to get most of research done without robotics' help or materials. Now they have all the fancy gear, but can't produce any of it. Instead of having one destination for mined ores, you now have three.


- Remove surgical tools from the newly relocated Robotics.
Haha what. What does this add? The necessity to find an autolathe to print your own tools?
Or is it for needlessly outsourcing a vital step in making borgs to medical doctors that barely know to hold the right end of a scalpel?


- Move the circuit printer to engineering
Why do you want to add more tedium to an already tedious job by requiring running errands for researchable boards? Researching is boring, scientists don't do it for fun, but for the rewards they get once it all comes together. Having every machinery (exofab, imprinter, lathe, chemdispenser) you need to progress with research at a decent pace nearby, makes it less annoying.
Yeah yeah, having all these machines in the research lab is the foundation of the upcoming INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS autism tower, but it's not like the scientist building it hasn't invested any work in it.


The RnD lab is the place you go to ask for upgrades, be it in the form of equipment or machine parts. You want to build a public autocloner? Ask the egghead in the lab for the needed stuff! Also want a NV health scanner? Ask the same guy! You're the chef and want to produce server crashing amounts of validsalad? Ask for a quick upgrade for the microwave and hydroponics! All from the same place!
The RnD lab also is the place you go to as a miner. You've spent 20 minutes getting annoyed by hivelords, but you finally managed to bring back your haul. Time for rewards! Obviously you bring all your goodies to the RnD lab, because that's where you get your swag. No problemo, the scientists fills up their protolathe, leaving the leftovers for the waiting roboticist to pick up. There's no TDM at the ORM between three departments. You don't have to reserve a few bits of every material for engineering, the department on the other end of the station, so they can upgrade the ORM in the future, if they ever do - because why would they?
All the paths to late game content converge in the RnD lab. One place for all your needs. The supermarket of SS13. People are lazy. And dumb. And lazy.
Do outsourcing where it is applicable, not where you want to promote the dream of dumb, lazy people becoming not dumb and not lazy.

Just remember old mining, without a fancy vendor and without a point reward system. Back then, miners were doing their job largely for the sake of science - and not necessarily for their own. Now think hard and remind yourself how often science actually got any materials... barely ever.
That is what you get for trying to enforce dependance between two departments without immediate benefits for either party.

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Gun Hog
 
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Gun Hog » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:04 pm #152946

Actionb wrote:
Spoiler:
Stop stop stop STOP.
You're all going into a what-if frenzy.

Give Engineering a new lathe that makes components and make engineering responsible for upgrades.
First of all, most of the machines that benefit from upgrades are in medbay, science and robotics. There is no point upgrading anything else:
- upgraded engineering machines would include: SMES (we have enough power as it is), emitters (only useful during blob), pacman (lol) and APC power cells (in case you are not doing your engi job... but then why are you upgrading). The only machine that benefits immensly from upgrades is the turbine - just yet another power source. Upgrade score: whybother/10
- kitchen: if you have a chef, he will make tons of food regardless. If you don't have one, upgraded microwaves are pointless. 1/10
- upgrading chargers: great during blob, but boy must you be bored during no-blob to do this. 0/10

Now, why would you move the responsibility for upgrading medbay, science and robotics away from science - especially if they are going to have to upgrade their own machinery themselves anyway to progress with research.
All you need to print to do 99% of the worthwhile upgrades is: 15 manips, 10-15 bins, 10 lasers, 5 scanning modules (and 15 capacitors if you care about mechbay). Printing this stuff is a two minute job. Doing the upgrade run starting at the ORM in cargo, going through medbay and then back to science via robotics with a RPED takes a few more minutes - or 30 seconds if you use a bluespess RPED and sec cameras. This bit of work won't make a boring engi round feel great.
Giving engineering the ability to upgrade stuff is fine - trying to base upgrades solely on engineering when science is inevitably going to do upgrades anyway, just feels arbitrary. A change for the sake of changing something.
Plus: engineering can do that shit already by having tech storage access for the protolathe board. Have a guess why that never happens though?


- Move Robotics to Engineering.
Hi nostalgia, I remember you!
But god why. Robotics and science are BFFs, soulmates, weirdly grown siamese twins doing a perpetual 69er. They belong together. They rely on each other. You wouldn't move genetics cloning to cargo either, now would you?
Well, technically robotics relies on science more than the other way around. You don't need syringe guns to finish research (EMP 5 with adv.spectrometer, Bio 5 with RMMIs, bluespace 3+ with crystals), but it sure helps. Robotics needs research to produce anything but basic cyborgs, they need upgrades to work at a decent pace and most importantly: THEY NEED MINING MATERIALS for fancy stuff.

As it is right now, either a scientist or a roboticist grabs everything out of the ORM, the protolathe gets its fair share to facilitate research and upgrades and the rest goes into the exofabs. There's barely any competetion over materials, unless the nerd running the lab is an autistic version of a science-gollum.
Now imagine engineering, robotics and science having to fight over materials. Everyone knows modesty is not a virtue of SS13 players, so the first engi arriving at the ORM grabs everything under the pretense of needing it for upgrades. After enough begging or hacking, a roboticist may get their hands on some of the goodies. Dutifully, scientists have done their work and somehow, miraculously, managed to get most of research done without robotics' help or materials. Now they have all the fancy gear, but can't produce any of it. Instead of having one destination for mined ores, you now have three.


- Remove surgical tools from the newly relocated Robotics.
Haha what. What does this add? The necessity to find an autolathe to print your own tools?
Or is it for needlessly outsourcing a vital step in making borgs to medical doctors that barely know to hold the right end of a scalpel?


- Move the circuit printer to engineering
Why do you want to add more tedium to an already tedious job by requiring running errands for researchable boards? Researching is boring, scientists don't do it for fun, but for the rewards they get once it all comes together. Having every machinery (exofab, imprinter, lathe, chemdispenser) you need to progress with research at a decent pace nearby, makes it less annoying.
Yeah yeah, having all these machines in the research lab is the foundation of the upcoming INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS autism tower, but it's not like the scientist building it hasn't invested any work in it.


The RnD lab is the place you go to ask for upgrades, be it in the form of equipment or machine parts. You want to build a public autocloner? Ask the egghead in the lab for the needed stuff! Also want a NV health scanner? Ask the same guy! You're the chef and want to produce server crashing amounts of validsalad? Ask for a quick upgrade for the microwave and hydroponics! All from the same place!
The RnD lab also is the place you go to as a miner. You've spent 20 minutes getting annoyed by hivelords, but you finally managed to bring back your haul. Time for rewards! Obviously you bring all your goodies to the RnD lab, because that's where you get your swag. No problemo, the scientists fills up their protolathe, leaving the leftovers for the waiting roboticist to pick up. There's no TDM at the ORM between three departments. You don't have to reserve a few bits of every material for engineering, the department on the other end of the station, so they can upgrade the ORM in the future, if they ever do - because why would they?
All the paths to late game content converge in the RnD lab. One place for all your needs. The supermarket of SS13. People are lazy. And dumb. And lazy.
Do outsourcing where it is applicable, not where you want to promote the dream of dumb, lazy people becoming not dumb and not lazy.

Just remember old mining, without a fancy vendor and without a point reward system. Back then, miners were doing their job largely for the sake of science - and not necessarily for their own. Now think hard and remind yourself how often science actually got any materials... barely ever.
That is what you get for trying to enforce dependance between two departments without immediate benefits for either party.


This could not be expressed more beautifully. Upgrading things screams research, even across other game platforms! Robotics fits best in with Science due to research and mineral needs, as stated in the previous post. Engineering has no use for Robotics (Ripley mechs are too slow for any useful engineering role) either. Medical would be a better choice, but they would still rely on Science for upgrades and research data. I would not mind other departments having the ability to make stuff, as Science is sorely lacking in the ability to distribute gear, but taking all the interesting rewards from the Department renders it pointless to progress.

Actionb
 
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Actionb » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:39 pm #152950

Gun Hog wrote: I would not mind other departments having the ability to make stuff, as Science is sorely lacking in the ability to distribute gear...


This would be great. The RnD lab becomes a very busy place once all the good toys can be produced and everyone wants a share of it, occupying the RD console.
Doing the implant surgeries, printing and maybe delivering all the equipment, building mechs... there's usually not enough time for all of it.
If you want to make science less of a focal point for all fun late game content, let medbay surgery have a way to provide implants - and give autolathes the ability to print mundane protolathe equipment like experimental welders etc.
As I have said, upgrading the station is not a task worth moving to another department. Engineering being able to build hi-tech machinery, on the other hand, can be very useful.
This would allow robotics to focus on providing cyborg upgrades or mechs, and science might actually built a telesci setup or other fancy nerd machines instead of pumping out equipment.

This just leaves the problem of distributing mining materials...

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bandit
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby bandit » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:52 pm #152953

Or better yet, have what other departments can make controllable by the server computer like R&D is. Adds functionality to an underused, forgotten room. And if someone breaks in...
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Shadowlight213 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:07 pm #152984

Non-upgraded sleepers can't heal toxin damage.

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Cobby
 
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Cobby » Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:24 pm #152990

bandit wrote:Or better yet, have what other departments can make controllable by the server computer like R&D is. Adds functionality to an underused, forgotten room. And if someone breaks in...


Give it TGUI [aka not shit UI] and I'd be for this. The current server is clunky and is just a HUGGGGEEEEEE LISTTTTt
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

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Luke Cox
 
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Luke Cox » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:16 am #153084

Actionb wrote:
Spoiler:
Stop stop stop STOP.
You're all going into a what-if frenzy.

Give Engineering a new lathe that makes components and make engineering responsible for upgrades.
First of all, most of the machines that benefit from upgrades are in medbay, science and robotics. There is no point upgrading anything else:
- upgraded engineering machines would include: SMES (we have enough power as it is), emitters (only useful during blob), pacman (lol) and APC power cells (in case you are not doing your engi job... but then why are you upgrading). The only machine that benefits immensly from upgrades is the turbine - just yet another power source. Upgrade score: whybother/10
- kitchen: if you have a chef, he will make tons of food regardless. If you don't have one, upgraded microwaves are pointless. 1/10
- upgrading chargers: great during blob, but boy must you be bored during no-blob to do this. 0/10

Now, why would you move the responsibility for upgrading medbay, science and robotics away from science - especially if they are going to have to upgrade their own machinery themselves anyway to progress with research.
All you need to print to do 99% of the worthwhile upgrades is: 15 manips, 10-15 bins, 10 lasers, 5 scanning modules (and 15 capacitors if you care about mechbay). Printing this stuff is a two minute job. Doing the upgrade run starting at the ORM in cargo, going through medbay and then back to science via robotics with a RPED takes a few more minutes - or 30 seconds if you use a bluespess RPED and sec cameras. This bit of work won't make a boring engi round feel great.
Giving engineering the ability to upgrade stuff is fine - trying to base upgrades solely on engineering when science is inevitably going to do upgrades anyway, just feels arbitrary. A change for the sake of changing something.
Plus: engineering can do that shit already by having tech storage access for the protolathe board. Have a guess why that never happens though?


- Move Robotics to Engineering.
Hi nostalgia, I remember you!
But god why. Robotics and science are BFFs, soulmates, weirdly grown siamese twins doing a perpetual 69er. They belong together. They rely on each other. You wouldn't move genetics cloning to cargo either, now would you?
Well, technically robotics relies on science more than the other way around. You don't need syringe guns to finish research (EMP 5 with adv.spectrometer, Bio 5 with RMMIs, bluespace 3+ with crystals), but it sure helps. Robotics needs research to produce anything but basic cyborgs, they need upgrades to work at a decent pace and most importantly: THEY NEED MINING MATERIALS for fancy stuff.

As it is right now, either a scientist or a roboticist grabs everything out of the ORM, the protolathe gets its fair share to facilitate research and upgrades and the rest goes into the exofabs. There's barely any competetion over materials, unless the nerd running the lab is an autistic version of a science-gollum.
Now imagine engineering, robotics and science having to fight over materials. Everyone knows modesty is not a virtue of SS13 players, so the first engi arriving at the ORM grabs everything under the pretense of needing it for upgrades. After enough begging or hacking, a roboticist may get their hands on some of the goodies. Dutifully, scientists have done their work and somehow, miraculously, managed to get most of research done without robotics' help or materials. Now they have all the fancy gear, but can't produce any of it. Instead of having one destination for mined ores, you now have three.


- Remove surgical tools from the newly relocated Robotics.
Haha what. What does this add? The necessity to find an autolathe to print your own tools?
Or is it for needlessly outsourcing a vital step in making borgs to medical doctors that barely know to hold the right end of a scalpel?


- Move the circuit printer to engineering
Why do you want to add more tedium to an already tedious job by requiring running errands for researchable boards? Researching is boring, scientists don't do it for fun, but for the rewards they get once it all comes together. Having every machinery (exofab, imprinter, lathe, chemdispenser) you need to progress with research at a decent pace nearby, makes it less annoying.
Yeah yeah, having all these machines in the research lab is the foundation of the upcoming INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS autism tower, but it's not like the scientist building it hasn't invested any work in it.


The RnD lab is the place you go to ask for upgrades, be it in the form of equipment or machine parts. You want to build a public autocloner? Ask the egghead in the lab for the needed stuff! Also want a NV health scanner? Ask the same guy! You're the chef and want to produce server crashing amounts of validsalad? Ask for a quick upgrade for the microwave and hydroponics! All from the same place!
The RnD lab also is the place you go to as a miner. You've spent 20 minutes getting annoyed by hivelords, but you finally managed to bring back your haul. Time for rewards! Obviously you bring all your goodies to the RnD lab, because that's where you get your swag. No problemo, the scientists fills up their protolathe, leaving the leftovers for the waiting roboticist to pick up. There's no TDM at the ORM between three departments. You don't have to reserve a few bits of every material for engineering, the department on the other end of the station, so they can upgrade the ORM in the future, if they ever do - because why would they?
All the paths to late game content converge in the RnD lab. One place for all your needs. The supermarket of SS13. People are lazy. And dumb. And lazy.
Do outsourcing where it is applicable, not where you want to promote the dream of dumb, lazy people becoming not dumb and not lazy.

Just remember old mining, without a fancy vendor and without a point reward system. Back then, miners were doing their job largely for the sake of science - and not necessarily for their own. Now think hard and remind yourself how often science actually got any materials... barely ever.
That is what you get for trying to enforce dependance between two departments without immediate benefits for either party.


Did you not read a single explanation I gave? The entire point of moving things away from science is that on their own, science is too autonomous. Xenobiology is fine, toxins is fine, but R&D is so broken it's not even funny. Add in Robotics less than a screen away, and science is god. This is a widely held opinion, and you seem to be a part of the tiny minority that disagrees. All late-game content converging on R&D is the entire damn problem. No single department should wield that kind of power, and it's even worse in this case considering how easy it is for R&D to get to the "late-game." The only constraint they have is how many minerals mining feeds them, and nobody else wants those minerals. The changes I proposed would transfer some of science's power to Engineering, a department which both makes sense thematically and often spends a massive chunk of the round idling around and doing nothing productive. R&D should not be able to research tech, monopolize the minerals, build tech, upgrade existing machines, and render every other department obsolete all in one. Moving robotics to Engineering makes R&D a little more challenging, and along with moving stock parts to engineering takes care of the resource monopoly and upgrade problems. Making people run around to get stuff is also part of my plan, because that's when people get picked off by antags. Currently, the entire station can blow up and science won't bat an eye. That is terrible game design.


R&D is broken. This is a fact. The real debate here is how to best address this, and I feel that my proposals are both thorough and economical. R&D can still research everything and get all their toys from the protolathe, they just can't build half the station in one room in ten minutes. Engineers can actually do shit when things aren't blowing up, or we can even make a job out of running around and upgrading machines so that it'll actually get done. People won't be able to camp departments forever, so shit will actually happen. Everything will be all-around better.
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Actionb
 
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Actionb » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:35 pm #153203

In response to Luke, read at your own discretion. Went a bit overboard:
Spoiler:
Luke Cox wrote:...and science is god. This is a widely held opinion, and you seem to be a part of the tiny minority that disagrees.All late-game content converging on R&D is the entire damn problem.

I never said I do not agree with this. Science is god. That's why I pointed out that most late game stuff originates in RnD.
I just do not agree with your way of strewing key aspects of RnD over different departments and putting obvious nerf-brakes on the boring parts of doing research. Trying to discourage people from doing science to stop 'late-game' content from ever happening by adding arbitrary, nonsensical hurdles (no printer, no upgrades) is bad design.

Luke Cox wrote:The only constraint they have is how many minerals mining feeds them, and nobody else wants those minerals.

Which isn't a bad thing. Remember, players are assholes. There's plenty of jerk scientists that take all the minerals for themselves and make a roboticist begging for minerals look like Oliver Twist. I don't even want to imagine how it will be when there's three possible destinations for minerals.
Having robotics close to science is an elegant solution to not having a fair central mineral distribution system. Proximity encourages teamwork, it let's them share (as in stealing). If robotics is detached from science, the first guy at the ORM will take it all - queue bitchfighting because everyone is lazy and can't just go next door to get the 5 sheets of silver and sharing is for pansies anyway. And to adress your point in the OP:
Also prevents science from hoarding minerals, which is another reason why R&D is game-breaking: all other departments have to share different resources, while R&D gets to sit on all the minerals.

There is no sharing of ressources between any departments. Every department provides a service/resource or the other...in a 'ONE WAY' fashion. Engineering doesn't provide power because they want medbay to heal them when it comes to it - they do it because it's their job. Nothing else. There is no sharing. Minerals are meant for science. Acquiring and using those resources is what they, the scientists, and everyone else (it's a research station, remember) is meant to do. Come to think of it, science is the only department that gives something back.

Luke Cox wrote:The changes I proposed would transfer some of science's power to Engineering, a department which both makes sense thematically and often spends a massive chunk of the round idling around and doing nothing productive.

Upgrading a handful machines isn't power. Randomly taking upgrade parts away from science's protolathe in order to make a snowflakey mini-lathe in engineering the only source of upgrades that science is going to have to research and is going to need one way or the other anyway just feels like a spiteful attempt of a nerf. It doesn't fit, it makes no sense. It's just there to nerf science.

Does science need nerfs? Yes. Does science need in-your-face420NERFIT? Probably, but it sure will stick out like a sore thumb in that all players will notice it being an obvious nerf for the sake of nerfing science.


Luke Cox wrote:R&D should not be able to research tech, monopolize the minerals, build tech, upgrade existing machines, and render every other department obsolete all in one. Moving robotics to Engineering makes R&D a little more challenging, and along with moving stock parts to engineering takes care of the resource monopoly and upgrade problems. Making people run around to get stuff is also part of my plan, because that's when people get picked off by antags. Currently, the entire station can blow up and science won't bat an eye. That is terrible game design.

Moving robotics to engineering doesn't change a thing for the better. You don't need robotics for full research capacity; robotics on the other hand needs research to be done to reach its maximum potential. That's the reason why you more often than not see roboticists do the tedious research - scientists don't need good parts or tech designs for xenobio and toxins. Kind hearted scientists like Lat and Magni do research to service the station, every other scientist's incentive is late-game toys -- and even those get stale after a certain point, so why fucking bother.

Again, giving engineering the ability to rebuild machines from the get-go is a great idea. They could repair a bombed medbay without much outside help. It fits, after all they are the guys fixing stuff! But making it the only source of those machines, by removing science's imprinter and parts, is a recipe for disaster.
First of all, engineers have no reason to go upgrade the station other than to fight their boredom. And being bored is an inevitable consquence of the job's purely reactive nature: you have to wait for something to blow up, and in some rounds there is just nothing to fix. Upgrading is actually not all that exciting.
Betting on the off-chance that people will do one boring part of their job, because the other part bores them slightly more, while science has actual good reason to do just that, is just backwards.
Scientists need upgrades to progress with research, they need to upgrade the ORM to get any meaningful amounts of resoucres. So why not print a couple more parts to upgrade medbay as well?
Secondly, fixing a max-cap blast zone actually does take quite a bit of time; depending on the location, fixing more than just the obvious hull breaches will keep you busy for a while. Having a scientist swoop in and rebuild broken machinery is a boon, not a detriment. Engineers fix the hull, the power and the atmosphere. Scientists fix the machines. Everyone's busy. I'd rather not wait for that newbie engi to finish his unintentional cable art before they rebuild my cloner.

Luke Cox wrote:The entire point of moving things away from science is that on their own, science is too autonomous...
R&D is broken. This is a fact. The real debate here is how to best address this, and I feel that my proposals are both thorough and economical. R&D can still research everything and get all their toys from the protolathe, they just can't build half the station in one room in ten minutes. Engineers can actually do shit when things aren't blowing up, or we can even make a job out of running around and upgrading machines so that it'll actually get done.


Science being autonomous is an emergent feature, not an intended one. Nobody wanted it to happen.
For science to actually do what they are meant to do, they need all three machines and the benefits they provide.
They research better protolathe parts to upgrade the circuit imprinter with, so that they can make a board to deconstruct for further research. Or they upgrade the DA to deconstruct a pico manipulator for materials 6 without having item reliability be a cuck.
One result of this is science not having to rely on too much outside help to achieve any progress.
Considering this game is about murdering one another (light RP yo), somebody doing their job should be seen as a courtesy not as a certainty. And by that you can rarely rely on other people helping you out, even more so if said people are working in another department (circuit imprinter being near engineering).
If you want to stop the autonomy from emerging, you have to break science's ability to do everything on their own... which opens just another whole bag of worms of nothing ever getting done in the first place. Or you have to rely on dumb, lazy people not being dumb and lazy anymore and helping each other out without immediate tangible benefits. Good luck with that.

Emergent features are not easy to get rid of. You can't kill thousands of ants of a colony and expect the colony to break apart. Ants are not working together because there's a supervisor ant giving orders; ant 'hivemind' is an emergent feature, involuntarily created by the necessity to work together to survive.
In science's case it's pretty much the opposite. They have all the stuff they need, because 99% of the playerbase don't care enough about teamwork.
Your way of diffusing science's superiority is much like simply killing a lot of ants; yeah the emergent hivemind will obviously perish once the colony is wiped out --- yeah, science will stop being the alpha and omega once it can't do its job properly anymore.
Unless you come up with an ingenious way of allowing science to still do all research on their own (no upgrades required, no manufactured boards required) while STILL requiring interaction with engineering's upgrades and robotics' equipment so as to not make this division of labour appear to have been done in vain/to simply annoy scientists, you're just, metaphorically speaking, killing ants.

If you really want to change science's current state, you would have to take it all apart; divide the researching and the manufacturing aspects entirely, without outright crippling either. Making engineering responsible for upgrading science machinery would impede research - but allowing research to produce everything would make engineering's new role redundant and also leads you back to square one.
And who is stopping science from building the machines they were stripped of to continue on their path to a late-game superpower? Or even worse: engineering can just build a protolathe and leech off science's research to do just that. In the end, you may end up with two power autism bunkers instead of just one.
You would have to come up with an intricate new system to divide researched designs over different departments to avoid one taking all the glory. And these divisions, both the aspects one and the designs one, actually have to stick to make a real difference. Simply moving the circuit imprinter to engineering isn't enough.


Luke Cox wrote:People won't be able to camp departments forever, so shit will actually happen. Everything will be all-around better.

By 'people' you mean the one or two dudes working the RnD lab and the guy in robotics? That xenobiologist will still spend the entire round in his bunker, toxins expert goes braindead or blows themselves up. BRPED + sec cameras let's the engineer stay in his cozy autism corner. Not exaclty a brave new world, now is it?


Fuck it, here comes a summary for those afraid of letters:
- upgrading machinery isn't a big deal and it won't make a boring engineering round not boring. Science researches upgrades, because they need the upgrades. Entirely moving this part of their job to an unrelated department is a stupid move. Give engineering the ability to make machines, but don't throw the beautiful synergy of science researching and applying upgrades because they actually do need them (and by that making scientists upgrade medbay sorta on-the-fly) out the window.
- moving robotics to engineering doesn't change anything, but making teamwork between science and robotics worse because: laziness
- researching is a pain in the ass already, don't make late-game content less appealing by making the path to them as annoying as possible (running errands, fighting over ressources, generally putting trust in other people doing their job to get shit done)
- if engineering has the parts and the circuit imprinter, who is going to stop them from becoming autism science fort 2.0? After all, all you need to get started is a circuit imprinter, some acid, a RD console and something to produce parts with. Tech storage isn't exactly difficult to get into.

I want to see science change as much as you. But turning doing research into a reliance clusterfuck because science isn't self-contained anymore, and possibly simply shifting the 'power' focus from science to engineering is not the way.
Rebuild the way how science works from scratch, don't just throw wrenches at its gear train to see which one sticks.

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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby MrStonedOne » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:42 am #154240

Here's the biggest issue i have with science in it's current form.

It's not only impossible to get them to upgrade non-standard upgrade targets, but half the time impossible to get the parts needed to upgrade it yourself, because science is off upgrading parts and not responding to radio.

It **would** make my engineering round much less boring if i could try to optimize every inch of engineering, the power grid, atmos, ect.

Upgrade power cells in certain key apcs would mean they take longer to drain during a power sink.

Upgraded parts in the turbine would fuel my "POWER!!!! ATMOS TECHS MAKE POWER" boner that we all know every atmos tech who has touched the turbine has had, only those can't be upgraded without a bluespace rped, because by the point science has upgraded parts, a fire is already going in the turbine.

Upgraded parts in atmos's cooler and heater would make it MUCH easier to create 'super canisters' of air by cooling down air mix, stuffing it in a canister to 9000kpa and then heating it up so that you basically have 100 canisters in one, giving you a super power breach fixer.

Little things like that is the entire reason to play those departments, micro optimizing everything, making everything better, making your preparedness in the case of an emergency better, etc etc etc.

My suggestion at least removes R&D from being the sole provider of these parts, and some of the other things they can research and print, without basically gutting R&D or science, or making them useless.

We have to watch out for overbalancing, something people have been keen to jump to before in our code base.

Over nerfing something to uselessness, or overbuffing a useless thing until somebody comes along and overnerfs it back to uselessness.

Measured steps are required.

Lets take this one step at a time.
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Re: Some ideas: Department interplay and dependence

Postby Actionb » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:15 pm #154245

I can fully understand all the points you have brought up... but one thing just keeps bugging me.

The idea behind this thread was to, supposedly, promote interplay between departments. And yet one of its central features is to allow engineering to upgrade their machinery without having to ask science... resulting in less interaction.

So let's just stop pretending. The real issue here is science having all the fun stuff to themselves.
Spreading the fruits of research around other departments is an easy and obvious, albeit potentially powercreep-y, solution. But simply moving the power of science has little to do with the idea (infact, it invalidates it, see above) of this thread... maybe we should leave the bit about the science department out of it, moving it to a new thread, so we can focus on the other suggestions that may have merit.


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