My ""design"" notes

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onleavedontatme
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My ""design"" notes

Post by onleavedontatme » #155821

This is a work in progress. It is barely proof read (much like my code!) and it contradicts itself, goes on tangents, rambles, etc. Since I am going to be denying/accepting game changes based on the ideas that are roughly laid out here, I thought it'd be best to let everyone see it sooner rather than later though.

Core Issues: IF YOU MUST READ ONLY ONE PART, READ THIS
Spoiler:
-Grief Lottery: Players take turns either repeating tedious, mundane "jobs" while waiting for an excuse to call the shuttle, or they get to be RULES FREE for a round and make as many people as possible miserable.
1A) Jobs exist only to farm weapons (genetics powers, robotics mechs, science guns, mining for science guns) which you are not allowed to use unless antag or killing an antag, fix antagonist damage (engineering, medbay) or hunt antagonists (security, AI, cyborgs)


-Regarding Information/Paranoia: Players have too much information. AI overwatch, constant comms, well lit areas, security HUDs, team HUDs, shift+click instant examine as you dash past people,
easy random searches with no drawbacks (non lethal weapons), antag tests for the majority of antags at this point (usually via loyalty implant), rigid round types ("its not gang, I just saw a wizard"), suit sensors/portable crew monitors, etc.
2A) Players have no reason to work together, so they have no reason to make themselves vulnerable to other players. The whole station is designed to be run solo, medical is a solo affair, and so on.

-No goal: Basically the same as 1A). Your job leads nowhere, and it's easier to just mash the reset button than to fix anything. It is an endless cycle of the same 20 minutes of your job followed by 15 minutes of evacuation. There is absolutely no incentive or purpose to doing most actions on station.
I consider this the other biggest issue facing SS13 (but maybe there shouldn't be a goal, because it's a round based TDM. The jobs are bloat that distract from that core. Jobs will never lead anywhere in a round based videogame that ends within half an hour. The entire civillian aspect of the game is mostly out of control feature creep with no aim.)


-It's a terrible environment to roleplay in: It is a round based action game in a semi-sandbox (though dont get too wild, if your project interrupts other players and their chance at winning, they will probably adminhelp).
Your roleplay is likely to be interrupted by a killing spree, bored admins, or a ban request because you weren't participating in the killing sprees with enough enthusiasm (we seriously ban for the most basic of deeper roleplaying, developing characters/relationships). I am not sure SS13 was ever meant for this kind of roleplay but a significant portion of our community treats it like a place to do so,
and it'd be nice to think the game can be more than a series of death matches (or maybe this is a dumb goal? why build a roleplaying game on top of a round based mafia/team death match? I don't know but people keep insisting on it. I change my mind daily)

-We have no sane way to add new things to the game/RD is trash: The default option being to just throw it in RD. RD being bad probably requires little explanation, but feeding in items you already have on station to get the tech levels is just silly busy work and not an actual gate to new stuff. Phazons requiring anomaly cores was clever.


Lesser (but still big) problems:

-Permadeath/Quick and unpredictable Death/Long Rounds - I'm sorry, but you can't have all of those. It is just ridicuously sadistic. Making the player behind the character miserable should not be a core of the game design. It just isn't sustainable or healthy to actively seek to piss off a large portion of the playerbase at all times.

-Resource management is a joke: You generate infinite power, which is often the sole required resource of any job. Mineral costs have no rhyme or reason and stopped making any sense at all with machine upgrades. This ties back into "nothing to do but hunt badguys" because
the entire station is stocked and self sufficient from the beginning. This exacerbates other issues because it removes a potential source of purpose/drama.

-Lethalithy is binary: Generally either you have the required protection item (internals, space suit, firesuit, hardsuit/insuls) or you are dead within a minute if not sooner (suffocated, froze, burned, zapped by tesla). Ironically, greater
lethality in this case makes for duller and less involved gameplay.
Attempted (and failed) solution on my part for No Goal and RD sucks:
Spoiler:
Away missions were supposed to provide
-An endgame goal/challenge
-A way for coders to add new things without just shoving them in RD (you find them on the away mission)

Why did they fail?
-They ended up being midround things
-Too much traitor loot
-Too easy
-Too removed from the round (basically another game going on at the same time)
-Rushed out, too many maps, too little code for the maps
-AI mobs are trash
-Severely lacking assests/interesting things to put on away missions
-Making a new away mission is too work intensive/people would rather throw their stuff in RD


Attempting (and going to fail) solution on my part for No Goal and RD sucks

Lavaland is supposed to provide
-A way to add things without putting them directly in RD,they will be found on the planet/brought back for science to do stuff with (Ruin system)
-A potential source of respawns from natives, ship crash events, etc
-Some other stuff that I think is interesting but doesn't adress much in the "Core problems" bit
-Potentially a place to host an endgame goal, even if its something as simple as a boss monster

Why is it (probably) going to fail?
-Too removed from the round
-Changing mining will disrupt the flow of minerals to RD, which will make everyone mad
Possible Solutions to various things that I would like to try: (DISCLAIMER: Several of this are radical alterations to the game, to the point where it might actually be the same game anymore. I've thought about it forever, and I keep coming back to the answer that the only way to fix certain problems is to heavily redo core game mechanics)
Spoiler:
Option 1: Goal oriented
Goals: (how big of an impact on the game/how much work to code)

Non-obtrusive/Very Easy: Just simple crew objectives. "Build X mechs to support the war effort." "Prepare X nutriment amount of food to relieve a famine."
-Possibly using save files to reward/punish the next station with something minor/a news report on the result of last stations efforts.

Non-obstrusive/Difficult: Instead of a series of shitty away missions, pour all the effort into one big dungeon like the Solarium that requires the whole crew to access, and to explore/deal with.
-Probably run into the same issues as away missions
-Open source means it will probably get old faster than it took to code.

Obtrusive/Easy: Events are much more game changing and require crew cooperation to deal with to survive. They could be anywhere from things like "deliver x space cash or Y happens" or more destructive events that threaten survival
-People would probably still call the shuttle rather than dealing with these events.

Non-obstrusive/Difficult: Inspired by FTL obviously. Also by the shuttle build events/Orion trail type stuff. The station is a ship/the station can move. Small maps are loaded/unloaded in space around the station as small points of interests. Captain controls where the ship goes next.
He also controls how the station would interact with stuff like a trade event or whatever.

Obtrusive/Very Difficult: (Cheridan will recognize this one) Like the above, but the goal of the game is to keep the ship running long enough for the ship to reach the end. Instead of unloading/loading small things, move the ship from an asteroid field, to lavaland, to deep space, to a nebula etc.
-The various functions of the station would actually matter (like needing power for the engine, or keeping shields running, or whatever)
-Antagonists would not need to be a choice between dull and super lethal: The paranoia would come from the possibility an engineer could turn off the shields at the wrong time, or someone might revolver the guy responsible for keeping the guns running.
Traitors could be much more about using their environment or sabatoge.
-New crew and antagonists could slip onto the ship each stop.
-This is a pretty radical departure from how SS13 works currently, so I doubt people will be up for it.
-calling the evac shuttle would be losing in this case, you are abandoning the ship and your mission.

-Engineers would actually have purpose, as the ships systems would need to run, and damage repaired instead of abandoning ship
-Security would make sure nothing weird got on the ship at stops, accompany miners on resource runs, accompany exploration teams, guard the captain during diplomacy, etc, instead of just circling the halls for traitors
-Captain would have actual choices to make/things to lead on
-Civillian jobs would still be there just for fluff probably. People need to unwind at the bar between forays into the frozen tundra
-AI would of course be the ships computer

-Enemy "ship" (I dont think it actually needs to exist) would target random areas, Chief Engineer would allocate shields to areas and see if hits were blocked or not before resolving an explosion or fire or something similiar.

-Obviously I've thought quite a bit about this one and there are more details if anyone cares about the idea as a whole

-Hopefully this still keeps what makes SS13 magical. The captain would still be a condom, security would beat the clown for running onto the artillery deck, science would make a large hole in the ship for no reason, various cosmic horrors would torment the crew, etc. There would esentially be the same gamemodes we have now running at the same time as this new "fly the ship game," in the same environment (except ship shaped, and the outside changes)

BONUS: Let the captain name the ship

This would require a ton of work, but it wouldn't require actually changing much of the current game (could be developed parallel to it for the time being until a proof of concept is established).

Option 2: Lethality/Paranoia
1)Make a station on a planet. My dark secret was that Junglestation was something Pete and I were talking about, then dropped due to "we like space" backlash, before startoad ran off to never finish it on his own.
-Would allow for more varied events/3rd party factions (natives with their own objectives that may or may not align with the stations, or the traitors).
-Less binary lethality (wildlife, storms, whatever)
-Would probably help with the whole stealth/paranoia thing if people could hide in the wildnerness instead of in the same maint room that officers check every round
-Ausops wanted to make a station that was a series of buildings, I think that'd be interesting as well (especially if the various buildings periodically get cut off by storms). No brightly lit hallways, dark no mans land between departments.
-Same deal as above with the FTL knockoff, jobs would have more to do exploring around and defending the station/base
-I am pretty close to having a prototype of this done, it wouldn't require the codebase to really change gears.

2)Classic "what the fuck is going on who can I trust" (Skip this section its angry grumbling)
-Would basically involve rolling back years worth of "quality of life" updates and meta/antag tests (I listed most in the "problems" section)
-This will piss everyone off
-People will adminhelp angrily in the vague situations this caused
-It will still be a grief lottery
-Will still have no goal
-I'm really not sure a social trickery game works with 80 people anyway. I have fun playing things like Mafia or Munchkin or other nonsense where you have to pit people against eachother and make and break alliances, but SS13 has evolved far past the point where the gameplay supports that
Server culture/rules don't seem to support it either (imagine a game of mafia where admins had to get involved every time there was an innocent lynched). I think the grief lottery/team death match murder sprees/no goal/endless conversion modes have driven off many of the people who want something else.
-It is ironic that Cheridan gave me this very prestigious job after I explained how to make the game paranoid again because I'm not sure I have any interest in actually going back.
-I dont think this would actually work at our current population
-Long involved jobs that go nowhere like RD don't really make sense in a game like this, but I can't imagine ever removing them/players being okay with it. It will really be easier to just unify all the extra stuff we have now towards an end goal rather than cut the bloat this point. At some point our core gameplay/balance became garbage time sinks you repeat every round.
-people seriously play this game for the "jobs" now and complain when they get interrupted from feeding the same items into the same machine each game god why
-Rules would need to be more relaxed: "grey tiding" needs to happen so that there is enough confusion/cover for the traitors. There's a problem if the only people in the halls or breaking into places are badguys/imminiently banned.
-Some game modes should probably be axed as well, conversion spam death match is overdone and doesn't fit with a theme of paranoia
-People love the AI too much to ever limit it enough for this to work
-"Ruined the round" is a phrase you hear often from admins/ban requests, so I don't think our playerbase is going to accept playing a game where the point is to have everything ruined (I mean, they already do, but still)
-May as well make a new game or new codebase at this point, you'd have to remove so much to have paranoia again, and people are just too attached to various critical things.
-Birdboat is probably the closest to an old classic map where everything is built wrong and dangerous, and players fucking hate it.

Option 3:Keep on doing what we're doing

We're the most succesful SS13 codebase by far, and we're the biggest server, why fix what isn't broken? We did fine without a design lead. I can fuck off and leave people alone or just do the shitty work of settling balance arguments without trying to impose my grand vision on things.

Datum antags should shake up the game nicely with or without me. SS13 is completely dysfunctional from a design standpoint, but people seem to enjoy it anyway. Why rile them up by moving it forward to a new goal (or back to paranoia)

SS13 is a round based action game at heart about a disaster aboard a nonsensical space station, there is no higher purpose.

In this scenario, we keep the same badguy of the week/coders do whatever format, with just a few guidelines

-Encourage more player interaction/engagement. Large numbers of players shouldn't be suicididing out of boredom, or locked away in their departments doing fuckall while waiting for an antag to till them. Previous examples of me pushing this: Constructs, summon guns (I know, I know)

-Blend roundtypes together, have more than just Station vs Antagonist, focus less on power levels of rigid teams: People should be making and breaking alliances. It's always fun (for me anyway) multiple different factions with various goals deciding who they're gonna team up with in the face of crisis. Previous examples: Side antagonists, me mixing malf into traitor.

-Everything should be dangerous/everyone should be able to kill everyone/rule of cool: I personally think stories such as "that time the clown slipped 5 nuke ops and toolboxed them to death" are far more memorable than "that time the security officer tased a nuke op." The best part about current SS13 is all the absolutely nonsensical shit that can happen.
Militarized security vs civillian proof antags while everyone watches will happen over my dead body. The game excels at subverting expectations and telling interesting stories. Everything that can go wrong does go wrong, and that includes the guy who is "supposed" to win being fucked up by a random greyshirt with a spear. Everyone should have a chance to be the hero and impact the round (or die trying).


>but kor several of your options aren't even SS13 anymore! It's too different!

I'd argue that SS13 has not been itself anymore repeatedly and continuously since it was created. It's an atmos sim that has evolved continuously into several different things.

I understand if nobody likes any of these plans though. I am open to other suggestions (or just accepting that we're forever going to have roleplayers/job simulator types/team death match types all coexisting, as per option 3).
Last edited by onleavedontatme on Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Saegrimr
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Re: My """"""design"""""" notes

Post by Saegrimr » #155823

"Grief Lottery" really does describe everything way too well.
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Re: My """"""design"""""" notes

Post by Lumbermancer » #155826

I think the "grief lottery" and "no goal" describe exactly why I play mostly Sec - because there's always something going on, even when patrolling maint it doesn't feel it's to its own end, you always interact with people, you never sit bored.
Just simple crew objectives.
I suggested non-antag objectives a long time ago. Something like "serve 7 singulos to your patrons" as Bartender, or "keep the medbay clean until you evacuate" for Janitor. Bitches love greentext.
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Re: My """"""design"""""" notes

Post by Cik » #155827

seems like good stuff.

i wish engineering wasn't a superfluous department. you're right about them having nothing to do

they set up the engine which takes like 2 minutes and then it runs entirely without monitoring providing millions of excess power until it's deliberately sabotaged which can't really be fixed by engineering because they're never in engineering because there is NOTHING TO DO IN ENGINEERING

and then everyone complains 'engineers never fix anything'

it's because engineers don't know how to fucking fix anything because they never get any experience fixing anything because as soon as there's a one tile hole in the station the shuttle is fucking called

i just wish the station actually required maintenance to run. as it is the entire engineering department could be removed with no real impact on the game

in general i think rounds are just too short. if you have to dripfeed the station antags to keep things interesting over an hour+ round length that's fine but 20-40 minute rounds kills most of the point of half the jobs on the station.

especially wizard/blob rounds. as it is they have so much %chance to happen i don't really put any effort into the round until i'm pretty sure it's going to not be a fucking 20 minute memeround.
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Re: My """"""design"""""" notes

Post by lumipharon » #155829

Just because we're ticking along with a large playerbase doesn't mean things are great, or that things can be better. It's like politics in america - things have been going for 200 years but everyone has shat on the ideas it started with and the only reason why people still fight and bitch is because they don't want people who they utterly disagree with to win and fuck things up even more.

Some good idea though - I'm very much a fan of ship station idea, but I don't think it's very practical (especially for large crews), but someone could prove me wrong.
Jungle station style 'outpost on a planet' instead of a space station I think is both a good idea, and far, far more practical (as it's just a simple case of mapping mainly). All the points you mention about it are pretty spot on - will be neat to see what you're working on.

R&D needs to be gutted significantly, but I've already shilled my ideas on it more than one in other places, so won't bother going into it here. Lots of shit shouldn't be upgradable/upgrades do a lot less, for balance reasons however.

Design direction canonly be a good thing, tbh.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Zilenan91 » #155839

The planet map sounds like a neat idea.
Spoiler:
Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Steelpoint » #155894

I like the idea of Ship Station 13.
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ShadowDimentio
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by ShadowDimentio » #155906

Space Ship 13 sounds fucking awesome. FTL would serve as a great inspiration, like we have to keep moving forwards or ~BAD THINGS~ happen, and as we do so we find upgrades to equipment on the ship and personnel along with ~ENEMY CREW~ that could serve as a way to get people back into the round (You got spaced by an antag twenty minutes ago? Be a space pirate and suicide bomb the captain!) along with a few traitors in the crew sabotaging things.

Sounds like a great direction to go.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by K Peculier » #155959

Simple objectives for specific job would definitely be a nice addition. I'm pretty sure certain servers already have something in place for that.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by kevinz000 » #155977

AWAY MISSIONS:
If snowdin didn't have snowops looting shit and just confined to their own weaponary it would be a challenge that is JUST enough for the mission to not be impossible as otherwise snowops will get wizard gear and shit and murderbone adventurers. Don't let them ladder camp or gatecamp and just let them wander out and shoot anyone who they see. That will make the mission very hard with player controlled syndies, however the loot in the mission is well worth the risk and challenge of taking the syndies down.
The caves away mission is hard enough to not be easy loot. In my opinion, too hard, as if you touch lava, you're dead, if you don't have meds and you get hit by a basillisk or goliath, you're dead, if you get hit by a spider, you're dead without antitox, and the random spawning between level 1 and 2 is just confusing. However, for its difficulty (200 fucking skeletons , 10 basillisks, and about 20 goliaths, not to mention spiders and lava) it could use more loot so more then one player can get the loot instead of just one guy getting overpowered shit (blood crawling + plasma fist) and others getting nothing.
Ausops's per round basis additions to emitter maze is decently balanced around the loot you get. Just redesign emitter maze "challenge" because it's a misnomer and it is NOT a challenge and just random loot map as of now.
As for space battles, a LITTLE BIT LESS LOOT, definately drop the all access and MAYBE the bluespace artillery cannon, allow an easy way out but make adventuring further into the ship more dangerous (Like you spawn at gateway but if you want to go further sooner or later very powerful mobs like maulers and maybe even player controlled syndie or two)
NT research needs more powerful mobs in the vault section that has the laser eye injectors and shit so it's not easily cheesable with the guns and spells you get from the other sections. And maybe a TAD MORE syndies in the hallways so it isn't just "floortile this guy down and shoot the rest while dodging that one guy shooting at you". The spellbook section of it also needs more protection. Maybe turrets and monsters? Also I can cheese the mobs EASILY with two burn patches and a welder. weld the plasma wall and the mobs all burn to death. Wrench a girder when they're dead, go in, get the books, go out, burn patch yourself, gg.
Centcom away hasn't been in for a while but I think it's PRETTY GOOD as there's not much loot but not much risk to it either and is just an "exploration" thing
Wildwest is fine as if you're not prepared with a medibot and two medikits it's gg you ded because so much faithless knockdown. It requires two people as if you get knocked down and not another person to back you up you're DEAD.
Beach is just beach. No loot and no challenge. Just RP and shit.
Academy needs to be revamped so you can't EVA suit / jetpack + toolbelt cheese through space all the way to the front and get the die of fate. Also, the academy teacher needs to be prevented from jaunting to the loot rooms. I've seen one with a fucking guardian wrecking the explorers.
The outpost with the xenos. Well right now it's just free xeno outbreak if someone brings a facehugger back so either make the facehuggers heavily guarded, or remove em, or just add more loot and more obstacles so it's not just "This mission is only here for a traitor to make a xenomorph outbreak and end the round"
the outpost that doesn't have xenos and is not the NT research one. I haven't played that :^)

Edit: FIX REACTIVE TELEPORT ARMOR WORKING IN GATE IF IT ISNT ALREADY
ALSO, FIX CARDBOARD BOX SIMPLE MOB CHEESING. IT SHOULD STILL BE STEALTHY BUT IT SHOULDNT LET YOU WALK PAST A FIELD OF SYNDICATE MOBS UNSCATHED AND UNDETECTED
THIRD, Wild west requiring sacrafice is bad in my taste :^)
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Cheimon » #155991

These paragraphs are good, it's great to see someone considering the really big changes and fundamental issues, and potential ways of fixing them. I think /tg/ is successful for a few reasons, but having a lead design vision won't hurt it. If anything, eventually lacking vision will make it suck, so it's important to think through this stuff. I particularly like the concept of security being more than just 'circling the halls for traitors'. A lot of the time they just seem like a secondary antagonist to the crew, which is problematic.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by DemonFiren » #156010

ShadowDimentio wrote:Space Ship 13 sounds fucking awesome. FTL would serve as a great inspiration, like we have to keep moving forwards or ~BAD THINGS~ happen, and as we do so we find upgrades to equipment on the ship and personnel along with ~ENEMY CREW~ that could serve as a way to get people back into the round (You got spaced by an antag twenty minutes ago? Be a space pirate and suicide bomb the captain!) along with a few traitors in the crew sabotaging things.

Sounds like a great direction to go.
I can see this if we're a Syndicate ship running from the NT military, but why would the Syndies have NanoTrasen on the run?
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non-lizard things:
Spoiler:
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Takeguru » #156018

NT scout ship or some shit I dunno

Gameplay first, lore after
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by CPTANT » #156020

I think giving traitors the option to have some more serious objectives will help negate the feeling that every time you roll traitor the only thing you can do is hur dur kill everyone.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Steelpoint » #156022

Good point, being able to really sabotage the station from accomplishing its goal gives real tangible weight to sabotage.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Scott » #156024

One of the main problems is the playerbase that treats this game like TDM instead of an RP game. RP / being a space man on a space station is secondary to killing other people and winning.

I get that this server/community was never heavy on the RP, but not being heavy on the RP doesn't mean RP should be secondary. The jobs exist because RP and they feel stale because nobody develops the jobs further because nobody cares about RP all that much. The only major changes done to the jobs is nerfing or buffing because something gets in the way of someone's boner for killing or controlling. Looking at you shitcurity players.

When it comes to developing game roles, antagonists get the most development time. People keep changing traitor, changeling, cult, etc, new antag roles are created, new weapons to kill those antags are created. What about making some jobs more fun, more engaging, so that people aren't more concerned about rolling antag than rolling a station job? Of course there isn't a big push to do those sorts of things because the majority of the people here are more interested in TDM than being a space man on a space station.

I get that once someone goes through every job the magic dies, but that doesn't mean a veteran player stops being interested in RP. People complain that jobs feel stale but nobody comes up with good ideas to fix them and those threads soon die. Meanwhile "How can we fix cult" is the new hot thing and the under developed jobs stay the same.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by imblyings » #156031

DemonFiren wrote:I can see this if we're a Syndicate ship running from the NT military, but why would the Syndies have NanoTrasen on the run?
>assistant pisses all over the window tunnel connecting the syndie ship to the base
>syndies mad

done
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by DemonFiren » #156052

imblyings wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:I can see this if we're a Syndicate ship running from the NT military, but why would the Syndies have NanoTrasen on the run?
>assistant pisses all over the window tunnel connecting the syndie ship to the base
>syndies mad

done
This is the only argument that outweighs my hidden agenda of "on a syndicate ship, humans can't be command staff and the AI runs lizardmov".
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by InsaneHyena » #156053

This is the only argument that outweighs my hidden agenda of "on a syndicate ship, humans can't be command staff and the AI runs lizardmov".
Would you stop bringing cancer to the game
Bring back papercult.

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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by DemonFiren » #156061

InsaneHyena wrote:
This is the only argument that outweighs my hidden agenda of "on a syndicate ship, humans can't be command staff and the AI runs lizardmov".
Would you stop bringing cancer to the game
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Lumbermancer » #156063

Not only away missions should be removed, but midround antagonists as well.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by InsaneHyena » #156068

This is a horrible idea, and you know it. Swarmers, demons, revenants and syndrones are often much more fun than actual roundstart antags.
Bring back papercult.

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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Lumbermancer » #156069

I don't think they are. I think we need more classic traitor and changeling. They are less disruptive to the round flow, they rarely affect the whole station, and civies can continue their work. They are also not hilariously op.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by ShadowDimentio » #156077

>Tators and lings
>Less powerful than a revenant

Stop taking bath salts and get back to me on that
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Lumbermancer » #156085

I'm sorry but humans are easier to counter than demons appearing behind you and killing you in two hits.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by ShadowDimentio » #156086

>Two hits

Have you considered not being shit and running away from the ten lights you're standing next to that just blinked purple
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">7 8 6
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Lol"
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Zellion » #156265

I like the ship thing, can we do that? You could even kinda shamelessly rip off a board game. Battlestar Galactica boardgame, where you have a crew of people trying to make jumps to get home while overcoming enemy fighters and random bad events while a few traitors try to sabotage and destroy the ship. It's literally SS13 the boardgame.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by JJRcop » #156280

How's this:

Make the game to be geared to indefinite rounds with a sort of "drop-in drop-out" kind of thing, not necessarily round-based per se, technically but not practically, I guess?
This is definitely a paradigm shift thing and I don't know if i'm gonna explain it very well but it's worth a shot, and it's not SO bad of an overhaul:

A basic idea is that instead of focusing on round end, we have most of all the stuff have a start point and an end point, but that end point is not the same as the round end. Like I said before, drop-in drop-out.

As an example, traitors would be contacted with an objective, and when they complete their objective, the syndicate will tell them to lay low and standby for another objective. They are still lore-wise traitors until the end of the round, but not active antagonists unless they have an objective. Rules-wise, they only have their full reign while they have an active objective.
I guess it would be a good idea at this point to call them sleeper agents instead. Not a disgruntled crewmember willing to work with the enemy, but an enemy plant from the start, so it's a little more formal and organized.
(This example is just one possibility, i'm not attached to it, just getting something out there)

Like the example above, objectives would be able to greentext mid-round somehow. There are still things that try to make the round end like nuke and blob, but those would be uncommon, and most things can easily complete without the round being over.

Respawns would be required for this idea, I don't know what a good balance would be with timings or whatever else we can come up with, but either way, being able to come in as a new character after some time if you've already been in the round before is absolutely essential for this to work.

This was a messy explanation, but the main point is the crew's goal shifts from killing all antags and making the round restart, to making the station last as long as possible, and endure/deal with the threats as they come. Most threats come and go instead of being an ultimatum, and the same for normal players. The station will evolve over hours, and since you can leave and come back later as a new character in the "same round", the shuttle call will hopefully not be used much.

Again messy, but I hope you at least got the general idea and won't fuss over the details, that's really what's important to me.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Topham » #156321

The idea of expanding the game into a much richer and more diverse universe is really exciting, and the fact that this does so through gameplay and not flavortext is fantastic. I would love to flesh the game out to cover more aspects of nanotransen: scout ships, central command stations, planetary bases of operation, trade centers, stuff like that. Damn this thread is good.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by DemonFiren » #156338

Topham wrote:The idea of expanding the game into a much richer and more diverse universe is really exciting, and the fact that this does so through gameplay and not flavortext is fantastic. I would love to flesh the game out to cover more aspects of nanotransen: scout ships, central command stations, planetary bases of operation, trade centers, stuff like that. Damn this thread is good.
It's a fun read, and a fun read is what it will stay.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Topham » #156347

DemonFiren wrote:
Topham wrote:The idea of expanding the game into a much richer and more diverse universe is really exciting, and the fact that this does so through gameplay and not flavortext is fantastic. I would love to flesh the game out to cover more aspects of nanotransen: scout ships, central command stations, planetary bases of operation, trade centers, stuff like that. Damn this thread is good.
It's a fun read, and a fun read is what it will stay.
Shut up nerd :sad:
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by onleavedontatme » #156349

DemonFiren wrote:
Topham wrote:The idea of expanding the game into a much richer and more diverse universe is really exciting, and the fact that this does so through gameplay and not flavortext is fantastic. I would love to flesh the game out to cover more aspects of nanotransen: scout ships, central command stations, planetary bases of operation, trade centers, stuff like that. Damn this thread is good.
It's a fun read, and a fun read is what it will stay.
Depends on how many other coders want to get on board with it. I can do lavaland/minor objectives/push for paranoia myself but I'm not even gonna try doing space ship station 13 without others.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by DemonFiren » #156402

Well, I'm not holding my breath, but I suppose I can cross my fingers for a couple months.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Ezel » #156479

Lumbermancer wrote:I'm sorry but humans are easier to counter than demons appearing behind you and killing you in two hits.
I had a modified detective revolver and demon was coming for me and its was already dead before it auctally coulda hit me
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by lumipharon » #156481

One time I had a combat shotty filled with meteor shot. Blew a demon straight down the corridor.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by 1g88a » #156502

Planets would be neat if they were geared around building a base on them, which is the appeal of all those "turn the shuttle into a long-term vessel" events.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Atticat » #156565

This is beautiful, and I love your idea about a very difficult game of successfully keeping a ship running as it travels to a destination.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by lumipharon » #156566

In the past when I've designed autism ships, I've setup atmos pipes that would hook up to box station and the derelict, to be able to pump gas in or out of the ship - essentially toppin up on air when needed.

It would be pretty enertaining if shipstation 13 had something earlier, so after hull breaches and shit, you need to find somewhere to pump in more gas before the air got too thin, or something.
Could do the same for a turbine based engine, which would be neat.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Zellion » #156839

That idea that would turn the game into more of a sandbox instead of round based sounds awesome and maybe we should try something like that.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Saegrimr » #156842

Zellion wrote:That idea that would turn the game into more of a sandbox instead of round based sounds awesome and maybe we should try something like that.
I don't see why it couldn't be split up into rounds.

40 minutes of ship, with the people on it having specific objectives, greentext by docking and making it onto [station/planet/moonbase], 40 minutes on [station/planet/moonbase] with people completing objectives, greentext by escaping successfully on the ship before it leaves, repeat.

Then again that just sounds like what we already have by map switching every round.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Oldman Robustin » #157089

Agree with a lot of it. I think the grief lottery has solutions in the away missions but the missions need to strike a delicate balance of providing rewards suitable for the challenge without being a guaranteed slaughter of the crew or a guaranteed loot pinata. Away missions serve as a possible outlet for people to use all the cool shit they made on the job without having to resort to validhunting (this is the PvE/PvP distinction that exists in so many other games).

I think coming up with balanced, challenging, and enjoyable away missions is a much more feasible goal than trying to remake the core game experience into something more survival oriented. Don't get me wrong I'd love to see more scarcity, but it's not really going to enhance gameplay if people have to do their jobs because they NEED to as opposed to doing it because it lets them rek antags/murderbone. Engineering already follows that premise and its not a great aspect of the job being forced to do mundane tasks at every roundstart because the crew will hunt you down otherwise. Plus its already hard to find competence in the most elite professions, I would hate to see what would happen if the crew required a decent chef.

To make away missions work they need to:

1) Announce the mission directly or announce the general "danger" level of the mission before the gateway opens. That uncertainty that we have now is what prevents organized mission expeditions.

2) Require organized expeditions with extremely robust equipment to tackle the higher difficulty missions. These missions should be absolutely brutal and completely ruin anyone who thinks running in with a healing virus and fire axe is enough to succeed. These missions should push the crew to their upmost and punish any half-assed efforts. These missions should have requirements that call upon every department, hacking, building, healing, destruction, weaponry, etc. If there's a significant conflict underway these missions will do a good job of self-selecting because everyone will know that an expedition is not feasible and attempting it would be suicide... as opposed to now where every other round you have the HOS wander in alone, regardless of roundtype, hoping to get that mission that drops guns/spells like candy.

3) Offer unique gear for its victors. Try to avoid the "one amazing item that people will rush to and fight over while everyone else gets nothing" situation. The "C20R's and eshields for everyone!" shit is also bad too. That doesn't mean you can't offer combat-gear for rewards though, just try to make it special and not just an armory. If on-station antags get screwed by people returning from the mission then at this point we can say they deserved it. If you failed to disrupt the expedition's extensive prep effort and didn't sabotage the expedition directly, you cant really complain if someone comes back with a demon heart and screws you over with it.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Screemonster » #157120

Crew objective roundtypes would be great for away missions, like "retrieve X object from the gateway", autocall the shuttle once it's on the station. Greentext for crew if the artefact is on the shuttle at the end (as per the nuke disk). Toss a couple of traitors in among the crew with objectives to ensure the object is not on the shuttle, or in their own possession, or that only other traitors are on the shuttle at the end, etc.
For added !!FUN!! lift the restriction on gateway level antags travelling to the station once the objective is on Z1.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by bandit » #157727

I'd like to see your opinion on roundtypes and equipment shifting away from things you can find or make on the station, to ever-increasing numbers of special things orderable via uplinks and such. From what I have observed this is one of the biggest contributors to "griff lottery" as it means antags can skip doing their jobs and interacting with the crew in favor of pressing an instant win equipment button.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by IcePacks » #157739

We should really, really raise awareness of this thread. This is /TG/station's biggest flaws, laid bare for contemplation and correction. The more we brainstorm about this, the more we can fix.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by PKPenguin321 » #157763

-Ausops wanted to make a station that was a series of buildings, I think that'd be interesting as well (especially if the various buildings periodically get cut off by storms). No brightly lit hallways, dark no mans land between departments.
Now this is super interesting. The whole base could be on a jungle camp (think of the flashback missions in Hotline Miami 2). The terrain and wilderness could be randomly generated and have devastating and deadly monsters. There could be a day and night cycle (that's obviously shorter than 24 hours, just say that the planet has a short cycle) and at night things could get way more deadly outside. Random events could be things like weather disasters or earthquakes that could destroy power lines between departments and such. The escape shuttle could be a rocket that comes down from space to evacuate the planet.

I feel like there's both a lot of potential here, but that it's also essentially making a different game.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by IcePacks » #157768

/TG/station is on a downward slope. Maybe there isn't a problem with making a different game? I honestly think that the only way things are going to get any better is if we do introduce a radical change from what people are used to.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by lumipharon » #157769

Considering it's just putting the station in atmos instead of space (which already happens with some away missions) it's basically the same, in terms of basic mechanics.
It would definitely be fun though.
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by PKPenguin321 » #157800

what if we had both and the jungle maps or whatever could just be an alternate station layout? make it so when z1 is the jungle station, all the space z-levels are replaced with randomly generated forests or something. is such a thing even possible?
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by Zilenan91 » #157827

BYond doesn't handle random generation well but we might be able to do it
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Re: My ""design"" notes

Post by PKPenguin321 » #157840

Zilenan91 wrote:BYond doesn't handle random generation well but we might be able to do it
or just load in alternate z-levels, i just said random generation because iirc remie implemented a wilderness generator already
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