/tg/Station 13

one of the more spookier and atmospheric things about lifeweb migrant was that it was dark

it was really dark and your life line was a torch that could blow out at any moment

we have mesons in the year 2556 and while they are great and nice, the fact that they remove darkness makes mining and lavaworld a lot less spooky and atmospheric than it could be

while station miners could continue to have meson goggles, and I will admit I have no idea how possible this is code/effort wise, what if lavaworld mob spawns only had portable machines that gave mobs near it meson vision for a few seconds every now and then? it could burn plasma too or something

Don't they only remove darkness for the areas you can see naturally? If you can see that location, it provides full vision; and if you can't, it's only meson vision (so mobs outside your usual sight area won't be visible). This is why we have NVMesons, which let us see anything in sight range, as well as turfs outside of our sight range.

as i remember it shows turfs where you don't have light, so objects and mobs just pop up when they're in lit tiles

Replace static mesons with pulses that relay a mining like signal but also reveal a static outline of living things, engineers get a better 'advanced' meson that holds out these bursts longer/give the current vision.

Ambience, when a traitor/ling/enemy cuts the lights and you must fumble against a foe in total darkness (assuming you dont have a flashlight or PDA due to poor supplies and traitor detonation fuckery). With the pulse dealing out a static outline (of the last SCANNED POSITION on the pulse) it should be your quote for "nope, time to get the fuck out of here/i should probably identify who that is behind that set of walls/Oh hi mark, Agugghahghah ;MAINT!! *silence*"

Georgie La-Forge-Esque built in pulse sonar blind moleman race for engineering with naturally rubbery hands but low probability clumsy senses/blind pulse permanent advanced darkness meson meme round when?

(fuck that moleman idea deserves its own goddamn thread. Good work me. *pats self)

imblyings wrote:one of the more spookier and atmospheric things about lifeweb migrant was that it was dark

it was really dark and your life line was a torch that could blow out at any moment

we have mesons in the year 2556 and while they are great and nice, the fact that they remove darkness makes mining and lavaworld a lot less spooky and atmospheric than it could be

while station miners could continue to have meson goggles, and I will admit I have no idea how possible this is code/effort wise, what if lavaworld mob spawns only had portable machines that gave mobs near it meson vision for a few seconds every now and then? it could burn plasma too or something

There was a time where they didn't give pseudo night-vision.

It was fucking awful and not a bit more atmospheric, all you did was carry a bunch more flashlights and turn into a human sun while grappling with inventory management because most of your equips were lights.

Don't bring back/10

Drone mining is really atmospheric and great because you don't use mesons, you just use the drone x-ray vision. So the ores still pop but it's otherwise really dark apart from your dinky little drone light.

I've hated mesons since I started playing this game, first because I found them incredibly disorienting and later because they spoiled away mission stuff through walls. Now I hate them again for killing the atmosphere of mining.

I don't really have any ideas on how to fix them (read: remove) without being obnoxious to miners though.

It's difficult code-wise to have something visible from a tile you can't see.

Praise Mesons. If you want to be spooked play the majority of jobs that don't use them.

Yes I am sure that's what all the powergamers do.

But yeah, for it's intended purposes, mesons are pretty damn useful/important, and it's hard to cut out the unintened/unfun uses of it without interferring with that.
Maybe if mesons could only detect certain turfs or something?

Why not just make it so that the mesons only show ores/pipes/wires/etc rather than it give pseudo night vision?

WHO BROUGHT BACK MATERIAL SCANNERS

GOD DAMN IT

Material scanners are the shit

Meaning good

I'M FUCKING MAD, I CAN'T SEE SHIT WHEN I MINE IT'S AWFUL

consider this : flashlights

you only need one light

mining hardsuits are dying

I don't see why they'd be removed, and as of right now they have very good armor.

Dark mesons were actually ghetto thermals since due to light drop off you could pinpoint precisely where people were in the dark instead of having a random wall light up, something people on current thermals don't even notice.

Mesons are good for engineers, can spot gasses for atmostechs and vital for enjoyable mining.

We have tried dark mesons before they were trash.

So the biggest problem with material scanners is that walking forward while shooting+breaking a wall to lava = death.

It's not like space wind is going to push you into lava, you have to be careful instead of running blindly ahead.

TechnoAlchemist wrote:It's not like space wind is going to push you into lava, you have to be careful instead of running blindly ahead.

I took this advice and managed to not walk into lava thanks.

Maybe backing off and returning mesons was kneejerk. I can always argue that stuff alone in another PR though.

Mesons are useful for more reasons than just environmental hazards

I will concede that mesons are /better/ for mining in terms of knowing your environment, where you're going.

But knowing everything, where all the tunnels and lava is is dumb. The mineral scanners were I DARE SAY /atmospheric/ and actually having darkness was much cooler than the pseudo night vision.

Disappointed by the removal.

I think the most ironic part of the materials vs mesons is that it forced you to actually mine since you couldn't just hop from tunnel to tunnel, when one of the bigger complaints about lavaland is that it doesn't have enough digging/mining.

>people actually wanting to shoot at a wall and move forward

I don't understand it if I'm honest. They don't fight creatures, don't interact with anybody, and don't have a greater chance of discovering something.

What if we just did away with hidden ores and got rid of mining mesons

Mining can still get mesons from engineering or rnd if they want.

imblyings wrote:What if we just did away with hidden ores and got rid of mining mesons

Mining can still get mesons from engineering or rnd if they want.

I can't imagine the rage that not being able to see ores through walls would cause.

I'm probably going to try again with material scanners at some point though, they did look much nicer.

Nobody liked them Kor

Please

TheNightingale wrote:Don't they only remove darkness for the areas you can see naturally? If you can see that location, it provides full vision; and if you can't, it's only meson vision (so mobs outside your usual sight area won't be visible). This is why we have NVMesons, which let us see anything in sight range, as well as turfs outside of our sight range.

Reminder that mesons and alium vision are shit because Erro (and carn?) decided to make the darkest darkness overlay almost completely pitch black



(unless you whacked your gamma up through your graphics driver settings).


Old overlay would've looked like this:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what old mesons used to look like, before the lighting system was changed:


The difference you'll note is the darkness overlay is still there whilst wearing mesons, so you can still see the varying levels of lighting and the spooky atmosphere, instead of the current shitty mesons where you don't see the darkness overlay at all.

This is how mesons and alien vision works (or used to, apparently the lighting system changed again and I've not had reason to look at it)
They give your mob the see all turfs flag, which lets you see all turfs including the ones which would usually be in TOTAL DARKNESS and so not render at all on the client side
They reduce your see invisible var - this var controls what level of invisibility your mob can see, if the object has a higher invisibilty var than this number you can't see it - this is what causes the darkness overlay to disappear entirely and everything looks as bright as the sun.

Your mobs also have a darksight_range var which controls how far turfs in total darkness will still render on your client, for humans this is one tile around you. For borgs this was cranked up to the entire screen (which is why engi borg mesons are the best night vision in the game) from I think 2 or 3 tile range.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The complete removal the darkness layer was a crappy hacky way to make mesons work again, not make aliums blind, and let ghosts observe whats going on in the dark (which had the side effect of making other ghosts invisible for a long while).
At the very least it would be an improvement to have two darkness overlays sitting at different visibility levels, mesons and night vision mobs would only remove one layer - allowing them to still be functional but still be able to discern different levels of lighting.

I really miss being able to tell an area is dark with night vision.

Yeah that's why I hate wearing mesons. If I'm walking around with other people they get creeped out if I'm walking into pitch-black areas while I don't realize it.

Malkevin wrote:snip

Actually with the updates to byond, this can now be done - having the dark dark overlay for most people and a lighter version for people with special sight. Back in 2012 when what you mentioned was changed, byond would die if I tried to do this, but it's since been fixed.

The thing is I realized at the time that there were downsides to making darkness dark, but that the upsides to having actual darkness far outweigh the downsides. And I think in the long run it's worked fairly well.

I've messed with mining a lot, and played it a lot. Anyone can tell you that making it more 'atmospheric' makes it more 'annoying' and 'not fun'. This isn't lifeweb where you're exploring, nor is it lifeweb where you're trying to survive. You're a miner trying to get supplies for RND powergamers. Mining is fundamentally flawed.

You can't make mining fun without turning the game into a mining simulator, because mining always has to be 'attached to the station' in some way otherwise you get the feeling that you're not connected to the game and are playing a solo mining experience. This is fine in lifeweb because their rounds are really long and while there's no real point to their cave system, there's a sense of grizzled-veteran accomplishment that comes with braving the shit controls and deadly post-apoc caves. Do you see how this is completely different from blue-collar workers?

Now, I'd love some hardcore and actually fun space mining, which is what Ergovisavi was trying to accomplish, but the harder (also, more 'atmospheric') you make mining by nerfing mesons and making the place deadlier, the more you need to reward miners for their work.

But what is a reward? Is it a cosmetic that's cute? Is it something that helps you mine better? Does it end up being just a powergamer's wet dream because it helps you fight antags or kill people?

What am I saying, people only play engineering for the yellow gloves and space suits.

paprika wrote: Now, I'd love some hardcore and actually fun space mining, which is what Ergovisavi was trying to accomplish, but the harder (also, more 'atmospheric') you make mining by nerfing mesons and making the place deadlier, the more you need to reward miners for their work.

False
He changed mining because he didn't like rnd getting materials, those are his own words

paprika wrote:[muh game vision fapping]

If a coder ACTUALLY completed a total overhaul of mining that made it all that you described and, most importantly, WAS FUN, I'm sure everyone would be on board. Problem is, nobody ever does big changes, only tiny tweaks to the system we already have that only serve to annoy everyone that doesn't share the one coder's perspective, but we're supposed to look past it because it makes the game more [insert buzzword here]