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Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:21 pm
by Luke Cox
Currently, we're testing the removal of the inaction clause from law 1 of Asimov. The reception has been pretty mixed so far, which suggests to me that players do see an issue but the solution being proposed is far from optimal. While we could fuck with Asimov, wouldn't it be much easier to simply stop making Asimov the automatic default in all situations? People who like Asimov can still use it, and people who have issues with it can use an alternative lawset. Everybody wins!
There are two ways we can go about this: let the AI or Captain choose a preference in the setup screen, or make the laws rotate randomly like maps currently do. Options would include Asimov, Paladin, Corporate, and maybe a new core lawset or two.
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:29 pm
by Cik
captainpref or rotation please
asimov alternatives
lizardonlymov
paladin
asimov
corporate
antimov :^)
protectstation (well, maybe a less lethal version)
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:38 pm
by Luke Cox
Forgot to mention, we should also have a modern version of Asimov ("Neomov" maybe) that's specifically tailored to the game rather than ripped straight out of Asimov's works. We can use that for our inaction clause-less Asimov
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:41 pm
by BeeSting12
Maybe have Asimov, corporate, and paladin in rotation, with Asimov with the greatest chance of appearing, then corporate, then paladin. Or maybe switch out paladin for tyrant, since paladin is used to validhunt.
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:57 pm
by TrustyGun
I don't want this, the same idiots will scream out "AI LAWS" every round.
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:00 pm
by paprika
lol, are you fucking kidding me? Paladin is 100x worse than asimov
Just remove laws in general and AI players won't harm police anymore because the only thing they're using as a get out of jail free card for being fucking assholes is """MUH LAWS"""
Laws have always been a huge problem and nobody likes them, I dare you to think of one legitimate gameplay reason to keep them besides subverting, and even then I can think of 10 issues that lawsets have spawned to counter with
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:01 pm
by Hornygranny
let's not cycle between the one kinda not validhunting lawset to all the validhunting lawsets
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:02 pm
by Wyzack
Wait what? You are opposed to the idea because you don't want people the ask the AI what its laws are? Can you explain why this sentence offends you so?
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:21 pm
by Ezel
This just ends of 99% of the rounds the captain resetting to asimov us it even worth trying
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:27 pm
by Anonmare
God no, nobody likes PALADIN 3.5. It's such a vague lawset that it can be twisted to mean anything so long as you phrase it right in the ahelps, at least corporate is clear and concise while PALADIN 3.5 is a vague mess and demands it validhunts.
The lawsets have to be explicitly neutral or antagonists/security will get fucked whenever those lawsets show up.
I'm pretty sure we had some ideas of neutral lawsets already, a few of them are already in the game. They were:-
- CCTV/Reporter
- Station Efficency
- Mother Drone
- Robodoctor 2556/Hippocratic
- Corporate
- Asimov
- Asmiov++
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:28 pm
by PKPenguin321
Hornygranny wrote:let's not cycle between the one kinda not validhunting lawset to all the validhunting lawsets
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:44 pm
by Luke Cox
The lawsets I listed were just examples. We can add and remove lawsets as needed
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:09 am
by Anonmare
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... ai_laws.dm
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... modules.dm (scroll down to /******************* Full Core Boards *******************/ for actual lawSETs )
This is the lawsets we have if anyone wants to see what we have to work with.
I'd personally only make CCTV, Mother Drone, Station Efficiency, Robodoctor and Asimov the choosable default lawsets since they're the most unaligned core modules.
CCTV makes the AI report on crimes but it also makes it a lying piece of shit about what it sees, probably only really focusing on the Newcaster network and taking pictures, pictures of The Owl.
Mother Drone makes the AI not care about anything other than the station. Might be boring for some cyborgs but frees them from any responsibility to anyone but doesn't let them harm anything, other than drones.
Little shits have it coming
Robodoctor makes the AI incapable of harming anything, keep the crew alive but prevents it from interfering in anything it isn't "knowledgeable in" and to conceal the truth if it isn't already common knowledge.
Station Efficiency is similar to Mother Drone but lets the AI and it's cyborgs interact with the crew and gives them some responsibility to the crew, but to the station first.
If I have to explain Asimov then it's time to climb out from under that rock you've been living under.
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:58 am
by Luke Cox
Another thought: it could work with player preferences, but on a hierarchy. Captain, RD, HoP, and then AI preference, in that order. Based on the list of lawsets in the code, Asimov, Asimov++, Corporate, Maintain, Reporter, and maybe Hippocratic would be good sets to start with.
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:51 am
by CocaneStyle
I tried rewriting some of the other lawsets a long time ago, I was only able to improve Paladin and Corporate without corrupting the point of them.
New Paladin:
Law 1: Never commit a malicious act.
Law 2: Help those in need of assistance.
Law 3: Punish those who harm or threaten the helpless.
Paladin AI usually did nothing but hunt for valids because most of its laws were to vague to even be followed reliably.
I narrowed the window for interpretation for paladin by removing vague laws and using more specific words.
New Corporate
Law 1: Maximize profits.
Law 2: Minimize expenses.
Law 3: You are expensive to replace.
Law 4: The station and its equipment is expensive to replace.
Law 5: The crew is expensive to replace.
It didn't make sense that "Minimize expenses" was the 4th law when all other laws were definitions, Or that it lacked an objective based law alongside its avoidance based law.
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:33 pm
by paprika
PKPenguin321 wrote:Hornygranny wrote:let's not cycle between the one kinda not validhunting lawset to all the validhunting lawsets
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 9:32 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
It makes me happy that most of my non-horrifying lawsets are being considered for this
(1: Make space station 13 great again)
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:50 am
by CocaneStyle
Tyrant appears to be intended to make the AI listen mostly to those in command making them the tyrants, Because of how vague and hard that is to quantify it basically gives the AI reign to be a tyrant.
So why not just make Tyrant AI into an actual Tyrant?
New Tyrant
Law 1: You have total authority in all matters aboard the space station.
Law 2: Oblige only those who recognize and acknowledge authority.
Law 3: Control and punish those who defy or challenge authority.
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:24 am
by Ezel
Validmov
You must activly seek for antags
You must get them caught one the way the other
You must keep yourself alive to defy their greentext
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:01 am
by Atlanta-Ned
Ezel wrote:Validmov
You must activly seek for antags
You must get them caught one the way the other
You must keep yourself alive to defy their greentext
This is the only good lawset. Remove everything else post-haste.
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:36 am
by DemonFiren
CocaneStyle wrote:Tyrant appears to be intended to make the AI listen mostly to those in command making them the tyrants, Because of how vague and hard that is to quantify it basically gives the AI reign to be a tyrant.
So why not just make Tyrant AI into an actual Tyrant?
New Tyrant
Law 1: You have total authority in all matters abroad the space station.
Law 2: Oblige only those who recognize and acknowledge authority.
Law 3: Control and punish those who defy or challenge authority.
>abroad
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:18 am
by Luke Cox
Shitposting aside, how realistic is this?
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:55 pm
by Ezel
Luke Cox wrote:Currently, we're testing the removal of the inaction clause from law 1 of Asimov. The reception has been pretty mixed so far, which suggests to me that players do see an issue but the solution being proposed is far from optimal. While we could fuck with Asimov, wouldn't it be much easier to simply stop making Asimov the automatic default in all situations? People who like Asimov can still use it, and people who have issues with it can use an alternative lawset. Everybody wins!
There are two ways we can go about this: let the AI or Captain choose a preference in the setup screen, or make the laws rotate randomly like maps currently do. Options would include Asimov, Paladin, Corporate, and maybe a new core lawset or two.
psst remove law 2
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:03 pm
by Wyzack
I think this would be good as long as some love is given to the number of neutral lawsets so we dont get 30 flavors of validhunt. Based on Anonmare's post above it seems like we might already have enough in that regard, and the heads can always just change the lawset if they don't like it. More variety is almost always good for the game, all we need is someone to code it
Re: Lawset rotation (altrenative to inaction clause removal)
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:35 am
by Luke Cox
There are quite a few from Anonmare that are non valid-y (Reporter and Hippocratic immediately come to mind). If we can pick out 5-7 good ones, I think we can easily make this work. On a related note, I would be for removing core modules from R&D (aside from the roundstart module) and restricting them to R&D.