Stun, slip, and weaken nerf.

[J_Madison]

Since complaints about sec being overwhelmed is going on, I'm going to remake and revisit the long forgotten balance I suggested eons ago.

Essentially, I shave 2 seconds off every stun, weaken, and slip. A few exceptions like clown PDA and syndicate soap, but you get the picture.

Why do this?

This essentially makes ranged stuns much weaker and very difficult to stun cuff. This makes security both weaker and stronger.

Security is stronger because a lone stun won't result in the end of the round for them. You need two people to be able to garuantee (still possible to stuncuff alone) a cuff.

The new garuantee ways to cuff are now reliant on stamina damage and stun batons which have enough time to cuff.

Security and roles that start with stun batons or disablers are now the only jobs on roundstart that can stun and cuff.

Outside the use of antagonist equipment, it will become infinitely more difficult if not impossible to stun and cuff an officer. You'll be required to make use of your tools or friends if you want to make a kill.

Combat is now strictly skill based; getting stunned isn't the end of the world and you can recover from it.
A fully augmented, armoured, ammo filled traitor doesn't need to fear a stray stun ending his planning, and nor would a HOS need to fear that a slip will cost him his round.

Being stunned still sucks because in the period you're stunned, you can be disabled with a disabled.

5 second stuns are now 3.
7 second stuns are now 5.

This severely hinders validhunting since the stunprod isn't able to cuff someone.

Stunprods will be strictly defensive only; stun-run away.

[PKPenguin321]

[J_Madison]

This will also promote more actual shootouts, gun fights, and combat rather than the stun-cuff/kill meta that is going on.

Shielded hardsuits and adrenalin implants are affected, but still retain their use. It is still very lethal to be stunned for 3 seconds and being shot by lasers during those 3 seconds.

[ShadowDimentio]

Don't fuck with stuns.

[J_Madison]

Don't fuck with stuns.

Give me one good reason not to.

Because these numbers have been tested. I could shave 1 second but that's meaningless, and the payers on Sybil aren't gud enough to play with 3 second shorter stuns. 3 second reduction is a completely different experience and makes the station more Wild West Shoutouts.

I'm pretty firm that with 2 second reduction, you you can still functionally do your job and have a more fun and safe experience. Your death with this reduction will be more likely by a traitor's gun rather than a banana peel and closet in the maint shafts.

-

Oldman suggested giving sec adrenals, which is basically these numbers. It clearly correlates.

[Wyzack]

Don't fuck with stuns.

Yes because the status quo has been working so well. I think it is worth trying at least

[Armhulen]

If we can test no common radio we can test this

[ShadowDimentio]

Don't fuck with stuns.

Give me one good reason not to.

Because stuns are the axis of combat in this game. You either stun somebody to win (tasers), you deal so many fuckloads of damage that they drop dead (ops), or you're some weird outlier (blob).

Fucking with stuns is a fast way to pull the rug out from under everything and have really shit rounds until it gets removed. I'm not entirely opposed to tweaking things, but it'd need to be handled with a surgeon's precision.

This is not a surgeon's precicion. It's HA HA THREE SECOND STUNS I HOPE YOU HAVE ZERO LAG OR THE PERP IS ESCAPING GET FUCKED SEC

[Sidon]

[Zilenan91]

[Armhulen]

yeah okay I change my mind

[TechnoAlchemist]

i liked stamina damage

[iamgoofball]

If we can test no common radio we can test this

that was fun to code

you fuckers kept outwitting me

[Pilgrim]

Yeah I'm hesitant about this. Stuns aren't what's fucking over security.

[Steelpoint]

Yeah I'm hesitant about this. Stuns aren't what's fucking over security.

Actually they oft do, all the armour and guns in the world means nothing when anyone whips out a stun prod / bola+stun prod and takes you out of the round.

[lumipharon]

Anti stun drugs make you functionally unstunnable after this change, FYI.

[paprika]

Anti stun drugs.

unstunnable

wow alert the presses

[J_Madison]

Anti stun drugs make you functionally unstunnable after this change, FYI.

I'm aware. Chemical stuns and stamina damage is the way to go from there.

With the exception of the basic anti-stun drug, the stronger anti-stun drugs made you unstunnable anyway (meth). Not much different from what's currently going on.

I'll make adjustments to stun drugs accordingly so they're not overpowered.

Don't fuck with stuns.

Give me one good reason not to.

Because stuns are the axis of combat in this game. You either stun somebody to win (tasers), you deal so many fuckloads of damage that they drop dead (ops), or you're some weird outlier (blob).

Fucking with stuns is a fast way to pull the rug out from under everything and have really shit rounds until it gets removed. I'm not entirely opposed to tweaking things, but it'd need to be handled with a surgeon's precision.

This is not a surgeon's precicion. It's HA HA THREE SECOND STUNS I HOPE YOU HAVE ZERO LAG OR THE PERP IS ESCAPING GET FUCKED SEC

Actually, I think you missed my posts.

This is surgeons precision. This is an obsidian scalpel precision. This is precision that has been tested before. This is precision that has had 6 months of testing using different reductions.

If tgstation is that laggy that a reduction of stun times isn't possible for gameplay, then suffer not the player to play on a laggy server.

Stuns are the reason adrenaline implants are stupidly overpowered. Stuns are the only thing that people fear because you can land 99 perfect hits and deal 99 damage, but the one stun that hits you and it's over.

How is that fair?

If you can't stun someone then hit them with a disbler or a stun baton on a good SS13 server, contact the host to find better hosting.

-

You've tested 30% increase to damage. This is an average 30% reduction to stun duration.

[iamgoofball]

Anti stun drugs make you functionally unstunnable after this change, FYI.

although they also make you suffer some heavy after-effects

[lumipharon]

Not really though?

Ephedrine and synaptizine are both safe enough to use - only the more potent shit has real drawbacks.

[ShadowDimentio]

Stuns are the reason adrenaline implants are stupidly overpowered. Stuns are the only thing that people fear because you can land 99 perfect hits and deal 99 damage, but the one stun that hits you and it's over.

How is that fair?

>Fair

You seem to be under the impression that SS13 is a fair and balanced game

How utterly laughable.

In case you missed it, I'll say it again. STUNS ARE THE AXIS OF COMBAT. FUCKING WITH THE AXIS OF COMBAT IS A FUCKING STUPID IDEA UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO REPLACE IT WITH SOMETHING BETTER. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING BETTER, IT'S GOING TO MAKE THE GAME WORSE AT NO BENEFIT.

[J_Madison]

>not trying anything new to keep the horrendously outdated status quo in the form of a crutch.

Yeah, no. The axis of combat is something equally matched. A stun-cuff isn't equally matched.


You haven't even tried it and you're already criticising, not to mention you've given absolutely no counter argument on why it wouldn't be acceptable when damage had been buffed across the board and the common radio was removed.

[Wyzack]

I think Shadow is right in a sense. Stuns are the be all end all of combat right now. Why he believes this is a good thing is absolutely beyond me

[ShadowDimentio]

>M-muh status quo

I've always been hesitantly in favor of change if the change replaces or adds something to the game. This change does neither.

>Common radio removal was tested so we can try this too

This is the poorest case for shilling your own idea I've seen in a while. Common radio removal was a terrible idea, comparing it to this only makes your idea look worse by proxy.

>You have to try it before you knock it

I haven't tried dying of colon cancer either but I'm pretty sure I don't want it, unless you want to contend me there

>No counterargument

Except me saying it's a terrible idea because it makes everything combat-related in the game more difficult at no positive? Shit man you've got me there.

I think Shadow is right in a sense. Stuns are the be all end all of combat right now. Why he believes this is a good thing is absolutely beyond me

Because it works.

[J_Madison]

It's just an opinion. On that note I didn't find the removal of common radio that bad.

This change takes away effectiveness of crew weapons whilst increasing the crew's resistance to anything but a committed and targetted stun.

I think it's time to test the water and see if the boat floats regarding this 5+ year feature that has made SS13 combat so cancerous.

I'm very sure the sole reason you lost and died to me was because of adrenaline implants.

[ShadowDimentio]

Making everyone harder to kill is not a good thing.

Recall, if you will, stimulant viruses from virology before they were nerfed to see what I mean. The virologist would make a virus with stimulant, and, after changes to virology or synapzine (don't remember which), the crew with the virus would sprint around the station and be virtually unkillable because they moved so fast.

This is an example of everyone's resilience being brought up to a point where combat stops being fun for anyone. Traitors couldn't shoot anyone, security couldn't, nobody could. It was shit for all involved parties. Nerfing stuns across the board will achieve the exact same thing.

The best I can forse happening is traitors picking up normal guns like the revolver with stamina damage and tons of regular damage and rampaging, rather than stealing a taser.

>You only lost to me because I had adrenals

????????????

[J_Madison]

You don't know story behind virology.
Edit; virology created super tanky, healing, fast, stun reduced people.
This is only the stuns.

Hence why I wouldn't reduce stuns further.

These changes will create a new learning curve that some people may not like, since it makes combat more about hitting shots rather than fluking a stun.

Nerfing stuns vurses stamina tanky, healing, super fast, reduced stuns individuals are different things.

In this case, a traitor with a revolver is more popular because your 12 TC item actually does something instead of you fearing a simple stun.


And yes, I recorded when you tased me which would have stopped my 80 TC rampage, but it didn't because of adrenaline implants. That's the ridiculousness of stuns and stun reduction currently.

[Zilenan91]

It won't make combat more about hitting shots, it'll just mean people will run around forever and spam more stuns.

You can't get rid of how effective stuns are in combat without making it so that weapons do more damage in total, since weapon damage values are designed around stuns being so good.

[ShadowDimentio]

I have literally no idea what you're talking about, but show me that vid fam I want to check myself out.

Oh wait, are you talking about that one time you were an op and I was in an engi hardsuit and tazed you? I remember that. You're still mad over nearly getting dunked that one time? Jee-zus

And Zil is right. Stuns are what everything revolves around for a reason.

[J_Madison]

Not salty, just to prove the point that my round could have been ended there if it wasn't for stun reduction.

Are laser rifles not buffed to 25 damage?

I'm not sure what is the big problem about damage currently given the paper thin armour. It wouldn't hurt to reduce stun times by 2 but increase gun damage by a small amount if you believe it will make a big difference.

I'm very sure many of the less popular traitor items will be more popular if their cost doesn't end to a single stun.

[yackemflam]

DEADLY COMBAT WHEN?

[Steelpoint]

The only way you could feasibly move away from stun based combat is to massively buff lethal damage across the board.

If you were to give me a choice between a Taser and a Laser, I should want to take the Laser Rifle.

[Hibbles]

I remember the first time (I saw) when some miner managed, through incompetence or careful planning, to unleash a dragon on the main station. I remember observing with awe and quiet laughter as it fucking nuked the fuck out of everything in the universe with gigantic waves of fire, leaping from person to person, tearing them apart. Watching the crew driven before a truly superior threat, a station-ending calamity that left the very deck plates scorched to a cinder.

That was an SS13 moment. That was an amazing, priceless experience. And one of the first things I thought as I saw it clean up the entire fucking crew was 'please, please don't nerf this and make it Fair.'. It's the Unfairness that's often unforgettable about the game, to some people, a lot of people. Myself included.

Contrary to what many people would say, it's fine to want to Win in this game, to a certain level, and to play that way. It's one of the many styles we endorse on TG, and it can produce some really fun gameplay. But please don't assume everybody shares your outlook on this game needing to be Balanced.

Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

If you don't like that, it's fine, there's tons of games out there where this isn't true.

Stuns aren't fair. Stuns are SS13. SS13 isn't fair.

[paprika]

But please don't assume everybody shares your outlook on this game needing to be Balanced.

Maybe you don't, but Objectively Good Game Design does.

This game has fucking rotted for years because of le wacky grief lottery that you don't participate in as an admin most of the time. You even said in your example you were OBSERVING that dragon rampage, not having your round ruined by it or anything.

[ShadowDimentio]

So what you're saying is he should have burst in and NO FUN ALLOWED'D the dragon?

Also

>>>IMPLYING YOU KNOW WHAT GOOD GAME DESIGN IS

[iamgoofball]

Not really though?

Ephedrine and synaptizine are both safe enough to use - only the more potent shit has real drawbacks.

yup, but eph isnt flawless

also i need to check out synap

[paprika]

So what you're saying is he should have burst in and NO FUN ALLOWED'D the dragon?

Also

>>>IMPLYING YOU KNOW WHAT GOOD GAME DESIGN IS

It's common sense, but ok, feel free to be retarded all you want

Cheap, hollow victories that come as a result of an easy, no-risk stun that can be spammed most of the time is not good game design.

Also dragons being on station isn't as prolific as stuns are in our combat, and if they were a valid and common tactic people used as antags they would ABSOLUTELY be removed/nerfed. That's fucking obvious, don't be retarded.

Further proof it's a shitty example. Nerfing stuns and slips (what this fucking thread is about) won't ruin precious wacky chaos moments, because those are !!!!FUN!!!!! when they aren't a fucking meta that the combat centers around.

[ThanatosRa]

I feel dirty that I have to agree with jmad. This should at least be tested.

[Bolien]

I feel dirty that I have to agree with jmad. This should at least be tested.

[Reimoo]

What if we made it so security armor reduces ranged stun duration and we allow traitors to buy similar armor with their uplinks?

[Screemonster]

I'm surprised shadowdimentio isn't all for this considering that the REEEEE CAN'T BE STUNNED AND COMBAT IS ALL STUNS NOW I HAVE TO GID GUD WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN JUST STUN MEMES argument is one that was trotted out against borgs so often and this would basically make that argument moot

[ShadowDimentio]

I like borgs. I like stuns. I am a paradox, like Schrodinger's cat I exist in a realm where I both shitpost and do not shitpost. You'll never know unless you read the post.

[Steelpoint]

It would not be hard to boost stun protection on armour, that's based off of the 'energy' protection on all armour.

Most armour only has 10% energy protection, so only one second is shaved off of a ranged stun. The only armour off the top of my head that has more than that is Ablative armour and Deathsquad Armour.

In theory you can safely boost energy protection on armour as it'll only effect ranged stuns, melee stuns such as Batons and Flashbangs are unaffected and deal the full stun amount.

(Or just shoot the guy in armour in the arms and legs to deal the full stun.)

[Screemonster]

Why is armor always a percentage reduction anyway?

Something like a 1-2 point flat reduction would be great for stuff like riot gear as it'd proportionally provide a huge amount of protection against some yahoo using their fists while doing effectively fuck all against bullets and eswords and armblades and the like.

[Anonmare]

Augs do a flat reduction against melee. I think it's like 5 point reduction though.