/tg/Station 13

Okay, so, I saw remies comment on https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -265266267, about how we have an actual space pod vehicle in the game already!

I really want space exploration to be a thing, but I think we have gone about it the wrong way, where we are building the space content first and not the means that people access it.

Therefore - here is my proposal

A new job role is added to the game - Space explorer, they spawn in a space hangar on the station z level that has several speederbikes - I'm thinking about 2 or 3 to start.

They get access to a standard spacesuit (maybe remap EVA to just back off it and have them use the suits in there) and some oxygen tanks.


Your job is to fly around in space, investigate the space ruins and recover loot for the station and realistically, yourself.

This would require a relaying-out of space, so that it's a big cube around the station in the center. This allows you to have some sense of direction, along with a read out of your current z level and direction.

Hitting either end of the cube wraps you back around onto the far side.

One thing to note: They do not have access to the station z level with the space bike - when you launch out of the hangar you will be placed into one of the space z levels instead and if you attempt to enter the station z level, you simply return to the space hangar. Space around the station is to be reserved for jetpacking syndies and crew

If you think about this in the context of Wjohn's pr, imagine facing down syndicates in an epic space battle (lasers on your space bikes anyone?), or a running fight through the derelict as you attempt to flee from a syndicate group?

Or imagine finding a lone spaceman, out of jetpack fuel, drifting through space and rescuing him?

THe hope is that, with a concrete and useable means of moving around in space people will be more inspired to fill space with PVE/PVP content

oranges wrote:Your job is to fly around in space, investigate the space ruins and recover loot for the station and realistically, yourself.

Any new job should be mechanically tied with the station otherwise we will get Mining 2.0 where people fuck off to space to do PvE.

Mining is the single most played job in the game after lavaland, which indicates that lavaland is doing the right thing.

Can we add something that actually lets you find space ruins then? Like add a telescope that when point at a tile checks for what's beyond that tile and reports back?

oranges wrote:Mining is the single most played job in the game after lavaland, which indicates that lavaland is doing the right thing.

It means Lava content is compelling, it doesn't mean further compartmentalization of fun is the right thing to do.

oranges wrote:Mining is the single most played job in the game after lavaland, which indicates that lavaland is doing the right thing.

If you made a job that let you spawn as a space ninja that would also become a very popular job as well. That doesn't mean you're doing it right in the sense of larger scale design, merely that the job itself is fun regardless of any detriment...I mean not that I disagree with you; I liked old mining and don't play the new one at all, but it's clearly something that a lot of people have found their niche in and really enjoy the style and challenge of; but assuming that because it's well played makes it well designed in regards to the rest of the game isn't true.

The only way to make space content accessible to all would be to have infinite speeder bikes so everyone can leave the station, jetpacks are simply unuseable for serious space exploration.

I was planning on adding a white ship docking point to each z level and then making the white ship something that starts docked at the station. Using a mobile base to map each z level will be far more enjoyable I think.

Moving across 7 z levels of empty 255x255 identical black tiles with random transitions at max speed is never going to be more than randomly throwing darts and hoping you hit a point of interest whether you"re using a jetpack or a bike.

oranges wrote:The only way to make space content accessible to all would be to have infinite speeder bikes so everyone can leave the station, jetpacks are simply unuseable for serious space exploration.

Make a station (or a variant of current station) that's build around exploration, instead mining.

edit:This one directed at kor

How is that any different than moving across one z level at a time with the shuttle and still not being able to find anything within the level.

The lack of discoverability for space ruins has nothign to do with the means of accessing it, but does need to be addressed

Lumbermancer wrote:

oranges wrote:The only way to make space content accessible to all would be to have infinite speeder bikes so everyone can leave the station, jetpacks are simply unuseable for serious space exploration.

Make a station (or a variant of current station) that's build around exploration, instead mining.

I don't understand how this introduces the content to more people? Mining is already like this and still only miners realistically go out into lavaland? What am I missing?

Lumbermancer wrote:it doesn't mean further compartmentalization of fun is the right thing to do.

Good point, FTL station when? Moving the station z level to z level and sending out crew to explore while jetbiking security skirmishes with space pirates around the hull.

oranges wrote:How is that any different than moving across one z level at a time with the shuttle and still not being able to find anything within the level.

The lack of discoverability for space ruins has nothign to do with the means of accessing it.

I guess that's true. I feel like being at least being able to pick a z level and explore near your mobile base would be less frustrating than getting stuck in transition loops though.

Miners still interact with the station, they go back and forth, deliver minerals. You want to make a job whose only goal is own benefit and entertainment of self. It would be like a lava planet but without mining.

Kor wrote:Good point, FTL station when? Moving the station z level to z level and sending out crew to explore while jetbiking security skirmishes with space pirates around the hull.

I remember suggesting a spaceship station somewhere.

I suppose we could use the White Ship as the base, and launch the speeders from it.

The gateway from the station could be used to link the white ship to the station at all times.

How about tying it into the anomaly system? When anomalies happen they have to be analysed, anomaly cores, or the analyses they produce when scanned gives you a set of codes that the whiteship shuttle accepts and 'homes' in on to allow you to find various space ruins? Some are repeats and some are duds, whereas others work?
A bit RNG'y but ho hum.
Remove the Experimentator and add in a 'tracking hub' room that can remote teleport people out of dangerous situations and send data to the whiteship to hel them find new ruins.

It goes without saying i also put a arguement about it here expressing a alternative view of using space ships & the gateway

New job - Expeditionist/Explorer

• Sign up voluntarily to join the crew of a ship, and with a full crew deal with events while in the midst of exploring multiple z levels waiting to be explored and randomly jumped into. Space explorer is additional job, not a pre-set one

• Use the gateway & the dialling system to jump right into the heat of the combat of dangerous ruins or to far flung destinations where you must either forge a path back yourself or request help

• Space becomes split up into z level named sectors which via the computer navigational system create 'paths' to take, in which the largest ruins will be at the end of the paths, and ruins may turn up on the journey. Upgrade your engines to travel between z levels & commit to long journeys more quickly, naturally more expensive & dangerous ruins are listed to the big budget end path ruins.

• A specalist 'garage' room not too unlike oranges where the white ship (or the exploration ship for lack of a better name) rests and is recalled to via the command console on bridge in such a emergency, it has a small showroom for showing off objects you have found

---

Though generally im really pleased that Oranges has really took to the idea i have some questions

> Question about the space bikes, do they have their own internal system or do they run off plasma or some other source? And what makes them better than a flight pack/jetpack & eva suit for travel?

> Can more space bikes be made in the instance that (given that Goon & VG have a pod building system) it gets destroyed or otherwise lost?

Lumbermancer wrote:

oranges wrote:Your job is to fly around in space, investigate the space ruins and recover loot for the station and realistically, yourself.

Any new job should be mechanically tied with the station otherwise we will get Mining 2.0 where people fuck off to space to do PvE.

Go find powerful artifacts, same as the lavaland tendrils or ruins currently as well as miscellaneous high tech and high value objects. If the loot is designed properly it shouldn't be a issue (which means typically no eswords unless they are relatively inaccessible for balancing reasons etc, there's a upper limit on what loot is "good" vs "unbalanced")

Lots of other projects you can do out there antag or no antag, for instance build your own little space-pad or even a new station on a empty z level.

oranges wrote:

Lumbermancer wrote:

oranges wrote:The only way to make space content accessible to all would be to have infinite speeder bikes so everyone can leave the station, jetpacks are simply unuseable for serious space exploration.

Make a station (or a variant of current station) that's build around exploration, instead mining.

I don't understand how this introduces the content to more people? Mining is already like this and still only miners realistically go out into lavaland? What am I missing?

They mean to put content people NEED (etc. new botany plants, minerals, semi-nessecary milestones) or WANT into a station design by rubber-banding supplies of what the station has so its a little less, as to create demand to go out and get things.

Station needs minerals = Go mining
Station needs 'stuff' it can't get on the station = go space exploring for better things

If you had an internalized GPS at every ruin [and removed the area portion since that gives away what ruin it is most of the time], you could already use a feature in the game [telescience] in cooperation with the new feature [quantum pads] to traverse ruins.

However, that takes the exploration part out of it, which may be fun to some.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:If you had an internalized GPS at every ruin [and removed the area portion since that gives away what ruin it is most of the time], you could already use a feature in the game [telescience] in cooperation with the new feature [quantum pads] to traverse ruins.

However, that takes the exploration part out of it, which may be fun to some.

At that point why not just have a list of ruins on a computer that you can click to be instantly teleported to.

BORING

oranges wrote:

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:If you had an internalized GPS at every ruin [and removed the area portion since that gives away what ruin it is most of the time], you could already use a feature in the game [telescience] in cooperation with the new feature [quantum pads] to traverse ruins.

However, that takes the exploration part out of it, which may be fun to some.

At that point why not just have a list of ruins on a computer that you can click to be instantly teleported to.

BORING

Make it cost a shitload of power to jump between z levels, then using my sector structure count how many z levels they jumped and add power consumption to it.

All the more reason to either...

A. use a ship to jump between locations in reasonable times but not instant
B. use a space bike/flight suit/jetpack & eva to fly there manually traversing the distance.

I don't know how to integrate this into the station.

Touching any existing role with new artifact requirements will cause that role to yell and probably get this denied, adding new things takes time and would be skin deep at inclusion of the role. ;~;

oranges wrote:

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:If you had an internalized GPS at every ruin [and removed the area portion since that gives away what ruin it is most of the time], you could already use a feature in the game [telescience] in cooperation with the new feature [quantum pads] to traverse ruins.

However, that takes the exploration part out of it, which may be fun to some.

At that point why not just have a list of ruins on a computer that you can click to be instantly teleported to.

BORING

Well when your options are *do something* and explore basically nothing with the hopes you'll find the diamond in the rough, you're going to choose to *do something*. It doesn't matter how much glitter you add to space exploration, there's no promises that you'll find anything [worthwhile, at least]. Every other RNG based job in the game promises that you'll at least get SOMETHING. Genetics promises you that you'll get a power [good for you] or a disability [also good for you in niche situations, not to mention it helps you narrow down the other blocks for the powers], never nothing. Xenobio promises you that you will get SOME slimes, they just may not be the color of choice [which you can influence]. In Lavaland, on the rare chance there are ZERO ruins and ZERO bosses, you at least know you can still mine and fight the main boss, Legion.

With space exploration, RNG can literally ruin your ability to do the job because there is nothing to do in space aside from find ruins. At least with the science idea, you can continue to do science if there are no ruins / content-less meme ruins.

Also you can make telesci more costly you memer. It should be anyways now that quantum pads exist.

oranges wrote:I don't know how to integrate this into the station.

Touching any existing role with new artifact requirements will cause that role to yell and probably get this denied, adding new things takes time and would be skin deep at inclusion of the role. ;~;

Expeeeeeerrriiiimmmeeeennnttooooorr. (literally a useless machine since forever, only made slightly more useful by identifying random station artifact crap with random levels for either personal use or R&D deconstruction)

Find useless dusty shit, put it in the experimentor and either convert it to something else, or get a new function out of it, i mentioned a bit of a prototype suggestion for lavaland artifacts (fossil ore type) buried in rocks here (which only really works if the station gets a science lavaland base/science shuttle/public lavaland shuttle because miners might not want to haul shit back)

Xenoarcheology = Soft port (Fossils!)

Genetics is a offshoot of science based in medical, why not make relic/archeology a offshoot department with the experimentor for toying with what explorers bring back that isn't sold off/used at face value?

Everything past here is hypothetical
>get awful roundstart lag
>grey tide breaks in and steals everything
>you can't do anything for the rest of the round
>find the person who stole your shit
>beat the shit out of them
>get arrested and put in perma and get banned
This will be a great feature I'm sure.

TheColdTurtle wrote:Everything past here is hypothetical
>get awful roundstart lag
>grey tide breaks in and steals everything
>you can't do anything for the rest of the round
>find the person who stole your shit
>beat the shit out of them
>get arrested and put in perma and get banned
This will be a great feature I'm sure.

this applies to any job ever though.
like, you've got to know that and this post is ironic... right?

But it will be absolutely horrible when it is first added, with everyone wanting to be a Spess Explorer. See chef and whetstone, mining, Captain and his sword, chappy and snowflake gear.

Which is why the space bikes either need ID locks OR the explorer ship requires a recall button (which i did put on my original thread as something bridge command can do in calling a automatic recall of the explorer ship and lock it down)

Space cycles sound cool but building up to pod/ship fighter equivalents should be their reward. A carrier / hauler endgame pod for deploying exos and other vehicles would be the bomb. Hell an early single exo carrying vehicle that shunts some sort of explorer equivalent exosuit for dangerous ruins that functions best off station ala ripley would be neato.

Instead of harvesting ore for science to make shit for them they salvage different space vehicle parts (and maybe other stuff) from wrecks to be brought back to the bay, repaired and put back together into new vehicles. Space bikes and any other early tech should need a port dependent tune up and recharge to keep them running so they are on station for a reason and vulnerable. If we are going to let vehicles outside the station making them easy to weld repair sort of makes them too independent.

As for nuke ops the station should only have civilian space vehicles to start off and the ops shuttle should have more turrets anyway. I would see the result more being ops will disable the hangar and kill the explorers in short order, great optional objective for them. Honestly the stupidity in nuke ops shuttle status could easily be cleared up with full turret coverage, alarms that report enemy proximity to the nuke team and some in wireless implant ability to reposition the shuttle. A total space vehicle ban around the station makes this whole concept non interactive and doing it just for the nuke shuttle is dementedly devoid of any fun. Sort out the shuttle make it more secure and let the syndi team move it with their implants or minds or whatever if you trip their alarms.


Also something for space exploration and mining... artefacts?
Another thing that could spice up both lava and space exploration, a randomly spawning gateway to a smaller scale away mission in lavaland or space. This way we can have even more diversity in exploration content without 10 random staff stopping their jobs to jump into an easily accessible on station hole and it also resolves titanic ruins spoiling the landscape. Put the gateway off station basically let the environment keep most of the plebs away from it.

This still alive?

I still remain convinced that if there is any substantial loot, artifacts & the experimenter should play a integral role, in such a case that you can progress your tech & get cool items without deconning minerals as progression stumps, with a little bit of illegal tech & super endgame tech thrown on some of the later artifacts to REALLY incentivize them to bring them back.

Personally, the thing I want to acquire via space exploration is rare curiosities you can't otherwise obtain, especially stuff that can make an interesting difference when you arive back on station with it in hand.

Good examples: The bananium clown shoes, or intel from syndicate listening post (maybe if it had a bit more data- one encryption key that adds the syndicate radio channel to a headset, or the current set of secret identification phrases used by syndie agents).
Bad Examples: The seeds on creepy buffet ship are just seeds botany has or can easily make. Or space suits: Cool flavor but still the one thing you're guaranteed NOT to need.

I'm willing to code space pods

Of course lavaland is the most played job its litteraly powercreep job

Wisp = thermals
Meat hook = a brute stronger lasergun
Immortality talisman=stalling item
And such on theres no stop to the powercreep not forgetting new stuff keeps getting added

While space is nowhere close what lavaland i mean sute you find a cherry bomb or a gun but you cant compare it with lavaland

FantasticFwoosh wrote:It goes without saying i also put a arguement about it here expressing a alternative view of using space ships & the gateway

New job - Expeditionist/Explorer

• Sign up voluntarily to join the crew of a ship, and with a full crew deal with events while in the midst of exploring multiple z levels waiting to be explored and randomly jumped into. Space explorer is additional job, not a pre-set one

• Use the gateway & the dialling system to jump right into the heat of the combat of dangerous ruins or to far flung destinations where you must either forge a path back yourself or request help

• Space becomes split up into z level named sectors which via the computer navigational system create 'paths' to take, in which the largest ruins will be at the end of the paths, and ruins may turn up on the journey. Upgrade your engines to travel between z levels & commit to long journeys more quickly, naturally more expensive & dangerous ruins are listed to the big budget end path ruins.

• A specalist 'garage' room not too unlike oranges where the white ship (or the exploration ship for lack of a better name) rests and is recalled to via the command console on bridge in such a emergency, it has a small showroom for showing off objects you have found

---

Though generally im really pleased that Oranges has really took to the idea i have some questions

> Question about the space bikes, do they have their own internal system or do they run off plasma or some other source? And what makes them better than a flight pack/jetpack & eva suit for travel?

> Can more space bikes be made in the instance that (given that Goon & VG have a pod building system) it gets destroyed or otherwise lost?

Lumbermancer wrote:

oranges wrote:Your job is to fly around in space, investigate the space ruins and recover loot for the station and realistically, yourself.

Any new job should be mechanically tied with the station otherwise we will get Mining 2.0 where people fuck off to space to do PvE.

Go find powerful artifacts, same as the lavaland tendrils or ruins currently as well as miscellaneous high tech and high value objects. If the loot is designed properly it shouldn't be a issue (which means typically no eswords unless they are relatively inaccessible for balancing reasons etc, there's a upper limit on what loot is "good" vs "unbalanced")

Lots of other projects you can do out there antag or no antag, for instance build your own little space-pad or even a new station on a empty z level.

oranges wrote:

Lumbermancer wrote:

oranges wrote:The only way to make space content accessible to all would be to have infinite speeder bikes so everyone can leave the station, jetpacks are simply unuseable for serious space exploration.

Make a station (or a variant of current station) that's build around exploration, instead mining.

I don't understand how this introduces the content to more people? Mining is already like this and still only miners realistically go out into lavaland? What am I missing?

They mean to put content people NEED (etc. new botany plants, minerals, semi-nessecary milestones) or WANT into a station design by rubber-banding supplies of what the station has so its a little less, as to create demand to go out and get things.

Station needs minerals = Go mining
Station needs 'stuff' it can't get on the station = go space exploring for better things

Honestly, this and along with oranges idea- is amazing. I've honestly always wanted a role more focused on space, plus- this gives the possibility of the gateway ACTUALLY being used. I remember one day I saw the brochures for the gateway and wanted to try it- only to try and use it to find it didn't work. I also remember I used to be a scientist, ask for EVA access, and then fuck off to space and be a spess hero. So this would be a dream-role come true.

kevinz000 wrote:I'm willing to code space pods

they already exist really, it's the integration of space exploration into the station that needs to be developed

honestly it's pretty easy to get syndicate gear if you have the right tools, there's syndicate gear on lavaland, in space, in cargo (with an emag, so that's alright I GUESS) but we should really return syndicate items to their former glory of being rare, and powerful.

E.I above points, dont let mining give end game content on a plate (remove tech levels from minerals & lock some behind semi-barriers of space loot) and ultimately design the loot carefully & incentivise processes like the experimentor (scan to reveal function & tech level for decon/loot drop) to be strong or more powerful over lavaland to place down the effort to go out into a more hostile enviroment.

Space is outward, lavaland is too far inward because its just a tiny RPG map right now with loot and bosses so far detracted from the station it runs as a seperate game. Space has room to be anything you want it to be.

Armhulen wrote:honestly it's pretty easy to get syndicate gear if you have the right tools, there's syndicate gear on lavaland, in space, in cargo (with an emag, so that's alright I GUESS) but we should really return syndicate items to their former glory of being rare, and powerful.

Seconded, few things annoy me more than null crates. Reinforce the policy that syndicate gear is (EXPENSIVE ILLEGAL SHIT) not some kind of candy bucket people dip into without the syndicate themselves taking notice. As E.I i mentioned before, there would need to be a upper limit to the loot that's present to stop a (syndicate ship away mission comes to mind) obviously strong/OP weapon being minimal effort to aquire like a esword (or two) just by picking it up.

So the explorer's base is a seperate z-level from the station? Would there be something in the base like the mining shuttle, which takes you to the station?

overall sounds cool

we're at that point where mining will just come in with a syndicate hardsuit and an esword and we're just like


"nice job, you're a really fantastic miner"

what is this

The only way to get an esword from lavaland is if you kill the syndicate base scientists or manage to blow up their base and swim in to grab their backpacks before they melt.

okay, fair, but the syndicate hardsuit IS bullshit and you know it

it's on a dead syndie OUTSIDE OF A RUIN

i'm getting flashbacks to the gateway

That's poor design on letting a ruin so big and obnoxious still be able to spawn.

Remove wishgranter W h e n