REMOVE TELEBATON

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:42 pm #236938

Bottom post of the previous page:

This makes the beatstick nice.
Remember when dets had teles?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:55 pm #236940

DemonFiren wrote:This makes the beatstick nice.
Remember when dets had teles?

Wasn't that the police baton you can find at the derelict?
Speaking of, that motherfucker is amazing.

Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:45 pm

Davidchan wrote:
cocothegogo wrote:I think the problem is the fact it's infinite, give heads stun batons
This. A telebaton is infinite stun, never requires recharge or replacement. Literally every other stun item in the game has a set limit to how many stuns it can dish out in a given period. Further more it's possible to pre-emptively deplete flashes, tasers and stun batons with EMP/Ion shots. Nothing stops the beatstick.

To reiterate my last post:

The strength of the telebaton itself is not why the OP is proposing to remove them. Please reread the OP.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:31 am #237095

Kor wrote:
Cik wrote:it's actually kind of startling how much resulted from one PR

was there even a good reason to nerf them in the first place?

hadn't they been a thing forever before that with no complaints?
A half hearted stab at removing stuns while leaving in other stuns. Unfinished work, much like the rest of our codebase.

Also the real unintended spiral of powercreep and then removal was lowering human runspeed, which made secborgs as fast as humans.

sooner or later it all comes back to HG

Post by **Arianya** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:44 am #237125

In this thread: "WAH THE RD KEEPS BEATING MY ASS FOR BREAKING INTO SCIENCE REMOVE TELEBATONS"

Sorry Saeg, I know thats not what this thread is about but jeez.

Anyway, I still argue that the re-invigorated flash should be introduced to greater novelty through ways other then removal of telebatons.

Screemonster · Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:36 am

I'll admit that using them as a ghetto-EMP to knock cameras out temporarily would be pretty neat, but they need some purpose other than countering silicons for regular, non-antag crew if you want people to bother carrying them, otherwise it just becomes "this person has a flash, they must be a headrev or a tator looking to counter the AI".

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:53 pm #237212

You can use a laser pointer to EMP cameras, it shouldn't be too hard to give the same functionality to flashes.

Flashes need an AoE confuse when used in-hand and make people drop whatever they're holding if they're directly flashed and stay still for a moment, in addition to being flashed.

#MakeFlashesGreatAgain

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:41 am #238598

Just give the heads a stun flash and a can of pepperspray :^)

Jzoid · Post by **Jzoid** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:34 pm #239357

If you keep Telebatons in though, give them a 20% chance of not working or snapping in half to prevent the endless cycle of being knocked down. They're stronger than fucking stun batons.

But I'm all in for removing telebatons and re-adding flashes.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:51 pm #239430

Infintie stun: ALways works can chain stun forever gg no re

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:23 pm #239461

I've handled a real telebaton and the way they work is that you hit someone's muscles so hard they fall asleep. You could just make it like a 10%-20% chance to miss on a downed target to avoid infini-stuns

Cw3040 · Post by **Cw3040** » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:23 pm #240071

Anonmare wrote:I've handled a real telebaton and the way they work is that you hit someone's muscles so hard they fall asleep. You could just make it like a 10%-20% chance to miss on a downed target to avoid infini-stuns

So what you're implying from the Empirical part of the post is that telebatons should be short-range holodamage?

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:27 pm #240079

If you wanted to be realistic, then I suppose so - though you have to make allowances for fun over realism. In real life, a proper telebaton can cave someone's skull in if you're not careful and the friction-lock it has means it has to be pushed against solid concrete to be made to retract. I'm presuming the Heads of Staff have a flimsier version since it can be retracted by hand.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:03 pm #240082

Tell me, what isn't fun about caving people's skulls in?

Post by **Armhulen** » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:55 am #240098

hi lifeweb

Doctor Pork · Post by **Doctor Pork** » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:19 am #240104

Anonmare wrote:If you wanted to be realistic, then I suppose so - though you have to make allowances for fun over realism. In real life, a proper telebaton can cave someone's skull in if you're not careful and the friction-lock it has means it has to be pushed against solid concrete to be made to retract. I'm presuming the Heads of Staff have a flimsier version since it can be retracted by hand.

i always assumed that the heads had fancy pants spacebatons that had a button or some shit

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:11 am #240418

Energy batons when

Doctor Pork · Post by **Doctor Pork** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:01 am #240649

Ezel wrote:Energy batons when

FantasticFwoosh · Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:16 am

Cheerleader batons when.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:57 pm #245687

Infinite stuns are awesome

Post by **Armhulen** » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:40 pm #245704

Good necro my friend. is someone actually going to do this or are we going to spend all day agreeing with each other until this thread dies again

Post by **Armhulen** » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:40 pm #245705

Good necro my friend. is someone actually going to do this or are we going to spend all day agreeing with each other until this thread dies again

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:43 pm #245739

Saegrimr wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:This makes the beatstick nice.
Remember when dets had teles?
Wasn't that the police baton you can find at the derelict?
Speaking of, that motherfucker is amazing.

Detective gets that at roundstart IIRC Before it was just the best telesci loot short of the NASA suits

Sweaterkittens · Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:03 pm

I think since the general consensus is that this is a good idea, the next step is figuring out exactly how to implement it. Flashes are, as has been pointed out, kind of shit right now. Is the logical first step buffing them against people and replacing telebatons with them? Or nerfing telebatons so you can't chain-stun, encouraging people to take flashes? What's a good first step towards making this happen?

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:14 pm #246015

Give heads a 2 shot tasers(or one shot) instead of an infinite telebaton(or just go with old flashes i guess)

Post by **Arianya** » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:17 pm #246016

"general consensus"

Telebatons can only chainstun on one person, and even then theres a margin for error that can easily result in someone slipping away, not to mention that you can't really do anything else with it.

My very real concern is that the loss of telebatons (even with concurrent flash buffs) is that the RD, CE and CMO will become even more squishy robust bait then they already are, being department heads issued with no self defense weapons other then the telebaton (or flash).

Additionally, flashes currently have a RNG chance to burn out, and will burn out on being EMP'd, making them very, very temporary self defence measures.

As noted by the original OP of this thread, multiple times, the point isn't

Telebaton op plz remove

its

Flashes aren't being carried because they are near useless, even as self defence weapons, causing rogue borgs to be seen as more potent then they should be

The best step to feeling out the balance implications of this is to first buff the flash, preferably (as noted by others) with non-antisilicon applications, so that we can see where the balance lies that encourages heads to carry around the flash with them.

Leave the telebaton alone, atleast until there is a clear issue with flash + telebaton being a dangerous combination for game balance.

In so far as suggested flash buffs, Saeg suggested:

give [flashes] the stun back

Which may help them be useful. Possibly a buff to the area blind could also be in order? Something like "if you're blinded by a radial flash you're at risk of headbutting a wall if you're running around wildly"? (Apologies to whoever I stole this idea from)

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:20 pm #246082

It would be logical to give back stuns to flashes. But of course the anti-silicon community will fight that because that would mean borgs get a stun back. And god forbid we undo any of the damage hg did.

cedarbridge · Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:22 pm

While we're at it, lets look at rolling back the "hurr secborgs op" flash buffs against borgs.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:36 am #246312

While we're at it, lets look at rolling back the "hurr secborgs op" secborg removal against borgs.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:38 am #246313

Compromise: Give Heads special Flashes only they get.

If used too quikcly they break

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:03 pm #246711

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9329

Ayyy

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:34 pm #246954

Arianya wrote:My very real concern is that the loss of telebatons (even with concurrent flash buffs) is that the RD, CE and CMO will become even more squishy robust bait then they already are, being department heads issued with no self defense weapons other then the telebaton (or flash).

They're supposed to be. They're doctors, engineers and nerdy scientists, not the Terminator. There's an entire department that exists to make up for this.

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:55 pm #246959

CMO gets his hypo, access to chemistry plus what ever virology and genetics can cook up.

CE is almost always walking about in a suit of armor as is, and almost always has stunprod parts available. It's uncommon for engineers to go out of line but given the current state of engineering its even more uncommon for the CE to ever be anywhere near his department.

RD has a metric fuckton of shit in science to make use and pretty much always has first dibs on the best toys.

All of the heads also have basic security access allowing them to run and hide in security if shit goes south, as well putting them in a prime position to beg the Warden/HoS for a taser or actual gun if their department is being too unruly for a flash to handle.

TheNightingale · Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:24 pm

If the CMO fills her hypospray with neurotoxin, that means it's less convenient to use as medicine (you have to mess around with changing the chemicals); and the CE making a stunprod at roundstart is just powergamey as hell. The RD's teleport armour is decent enough, but it's not exactly something you can use for nefarious purposes, or even to stop someone being an ass.

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:35 pm #246974

Unless you're filling it with omnizine the current goofchem doens't give well with hypo med. Styp/Silv/Synth are all touch only meaning brute/burn, aka the most common damage types are out, sleepers are infinite sulb and epi by default so crit care is out, leaving us with charcoal which is best inserted in +20u pills as is so your hypo doesn't help there either.

The only legitimate reason to even have the telebaton around anymore is because most security are too busy chasing valids that they don't care about department squables that don't justify using lethal force.

Post by **Arianya** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:05 pm #246996

Any non-antag CMO would be pretty sketchy filling their hypo with killtoxins, the CE's hardsuit is (I believe) the worst out of all hardsuits for brute protection, the RDs teleport armour is as likely to kill you as help you.

And saying "but they can get power later in the round" is meaningless. We're talking about roundstart items here, which in the situations where heads are most at risk (rev, gangs, sometimes cults), they will generally be picked off early in the round, not with enough forenotice to get armed up in anything less then extreme metagame mode.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:19 pm #247000

Arianya wrote:Any non-antag CMO would be pretty sketchy filling their hypo with killtoxins, the CE's hardsuit is (I believe) the worst out of all hardsuits for brute protection, the RDs teleport armour is as likely to kill you as help you.

And saying "but they can get power later in the round" is meaningless. We're talking about roundstart items here, which in the situations where heads are most at risk (rev, gangs, sometimes cults), they will generally be picked off early in the round, not with enough forenotice to get armed up in anything less then extreme metagame mode.

Who needs killtoxins when Beepsky is so easy to get? Puts the unwanted guest/assailant/stubborn patient down instantly with one zap from the hypo and causes no damage. Better than the baton, even.

As to the issue of getting rushed, that's just the nature of the mode. Heads of Science and Medical (and sometimes engineering) get rushed early on because they're not combat oriented roles. Naturally, /tg/ culture has managed to warp every role into a pseudo-warrior role, but lets be honest. CMO is the head of ERP and the RD is a nerd in a turtleneck. Neither are really meant to be equipped to fight a one-man war against the tide.

Post by **Arianya** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:31 pm #247004

cedarbridge wrote:
Arianya wrote:Any non-antag CMO would be pretty sketchy filling their hypo with killtoxins, the CE's hardsuit is (I believe) the worst out of all hardsuits for brute protection, the RDs teleport armour is as likely to kill you as help you.

And saying "but they can get power later in the round" is meaningless. We're talking about roundstart items here, which in the situations where heads are most at risk (rev, gangs, sometimes cults), they will generally be picked off early in the round, not with enough forenotice to get armed up in anything less then extreme metagame mode.
As to the issue of getting rushed, that's just the nature of the mode. Heads of Science and Medical (and sometimes engineering) get rushed early on because they're not combat oriented roles. Naturally, /tg/ culture has managed to warp every role into a pseudo-warrior role, but lets be honest. CMO is the head of ERP and the RD is a nerd in a turtleneck. Neither are really meant to be equipped to fight a one-man war against the tide.

Agreed, and this would be a solid argument against giving them more weaponry, but it doesn't justify taking away telebatons.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:37 pm #247008

Arianya wrote:Agreed, and this would be a solid argument against giving them more weaponry

You mean like a flash? That used to serve the purpose of telebatons before it got removed and given to the telebaton for still unknown reasons other than "yeah sure"?

Post by **Arianya** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:22 pm #247045

Saegrimr wrote:
Arianya wrote:Agreed, and this would be a solid argument against giving them more weaponry
You mean like a flash? That used to serve the purpose of telebatons before it got removed and given to the telebaton for still unknown reasons other than "yeah sure"?

Sunglasses/welding helmets/etc are some of the easiest protection items to find (sunglasses spawn in maint ffs) and the flash's area activate is a joke.

As noted previously, if we want to buff the flash and see how things shake out with both flash and telebaton, then fine, we can remove or nerf the telebaton when its clear that it, in conjunction with flash, it has become a too much power for the heads, but I'm heavily opposed to dropping the telebaton entirely in favour of the flash because "its okay, we'll buff it!" while the heads mentioned earlier get shanked even harder because they now have a gimp flash that'll break on them at random and no telebaton.

I myself have suggested flash buffs (okay, I stole them from someone else but still), but at this point the thread seems to have deviated from "make flashes relevant again" to "FUCK THE TELEBATON GET IT OUT OUT OUT", despite your assurances otherwise.

Most of these posts are about how the telebaton should be removed as opposed to how to get the flash back to being a useful piece of kit.

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:27 am #247216

Davidchan wrote:Unless you're filling it with omnizine the current goofchem doens't give well with hypo med. Styp/Silv/Synth are all touch only meaning brute/burn, aka the most common damage types are out, sleepers are infinite sulb and epi by default so crit care is out, leaving us with charcoal which is best inserted in +20u pills as is so your hypo doesn't help there either.

The only legitimate reason to even have the telebaton around anymore is because most security are too busy chasing valids that they don't care about department squables that don't justify using lethal force.

Tricord exists. Add some epinepherene to it and bam, mix that will stabilise and potentially fix people without ever visiting medbay.

If you want every type of healing while portable, get an Odysseus. Or medigun.

Cw3040 · Post by **Cw3040** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:29 pm #249107

Haevacht wrote:
Davidchan wrote:Unless you're filling it with omnizine the current goofchem doens't give well with hypo med. Styp/Silv/Synth are all touch only meaning brute/burn, aka the most common damage types are out, sleepers are infinite sulb and epi by default so crit care is out, leaving us with charcoal which is best inserted in +20u pills as is so your hypo doesn't help there either.

The only legitimate reason to even have the telebaton around anymore is because most security are too busy chasing valids that they don't care about department squables that don't justify using lethal force.
Tricord exists. Add some epinepherene to it and bam, mix that will stabilise and potentially fix people without ever visiting medbay.

If you want every type of healing while portable, get an Odysseus. Or medigun.

You forgot a rapid syringe gun with syringes that have 10u tricord 5u epinephrine. No wait no you didn't.

Still a valid point though. Nearly everyone east of the Bridge on Box has some way of healing people (Librarian is the exception).

Weepo · Post by **Weepo** » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:37 am #249411

Ok so the impression I'm getting is 'print an advanced egun asap' because now I'm relying on a camera flash to protect R&D from the entire station.

Cw3040 · Post by **Cw3040** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:20 pm #254966

Weepo wrote:Ok so the impression I'm getting is 'print an advanced egun asap' because now I'm relying on a camera flash to protect R&D from the entire station.

>He doesn't already bumrush adv egun
Get a load of this guy.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:00 pm

>Advanced egun
>Not the syringe gun

Doesn't even require mats or a firing pin, it's great. 15U syringes of unstable mutagen can be mass produced easy and will fuck up people with a single shot.

Cw3040 · Post by **Cw3040** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:29 pm #254974

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Advanced egun
>Not the syringe gun

Doesn't even require mats or a firing pin, it's great. 15U syringes of unstable mutagen can be mass produced easy and will fuck up people with a single shot.

Only the rapid syringer is worth getting, and at that point get bluespace syringes for it and you have magical deathspikes.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:22 pm #255010

ShadowDimentio wrote:15U syringes of unstable mutagen

top pleb

WarbossLincoln · Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:39 pm

I think Saeg's right about the flash nerf being what fucked borgs. It wouldn't be bad to go back to the old stun flash and get rid of infinite stun lock batons on the heads. I can't remember how many times as a sec borg I got fucked because 1/3 of the station carried flashes.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:37 am

cedarbridge wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:15U syringes of unstable mutagen
top pleb

I can mass produce my deathsyringes with minimal equipment and time. While you're assembling your turbofuck deathstuns, I'll have already run up and shot you up with 90U of mutagenic death.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:56 am #255213

except beepsky takes, like, no time at all

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:04 am #255215

DemonFiren wrote:except beepsky takes, like, no time at all

Neurotoxin takes roughly 2 seconds if the bartender isn't a moron and knows how to push the buttons on his drink mixer. Neurotoxin takes one click after that. Apply syringe/hypo. Win the game. You're never going to kill somebody straight out with a syringe of mutagen.