Alternate Rev Conversion Mechanic

[Dagdammit]

This idea has several different parts, cherry-picking specific bits is totally an option.

-Tweak rev's flavor to be a third kind of Syndicate plot, with more of a Manchurian Candidate/cold war conspiracy feel. A significant portion of the crew are sleeper agents with mental conditioning, which when activated causes them to remember their "true mission" of killing the heads. (Could leave it ambiguous whether those memories are real, or something planted in regular NT crew member's heads via brainwashing).

-Random crew members members are designated as possible converts, with progressively more being designated as the round goes on. 5-10% of the crew is convertable at roundstart, and every X minutes another Y% of the crew becomes available for conversion, up to a max of maybe 70% of the total crew on manifest. (New arrivals would expand the manifest, causing new individuals to get flagged as possible converts)
--Algorithm might have no qualms about selecting members of the crew who are dead, effectively giving some penalty to Rev murderbone.
--You could weight things so Assistants, Janitors, and other peasant-tier roles are more likely to be designated as viable conversion targets.
--Detecting conversion targets (i.e. marking them on the rev leader's HUDs) might require taking out your suspicious device and activating it in your hand. Takes a few seconds, followed by a message like "Scan complete. 2 conversion targets detected, updating HUD." The scan range could be the same size as your screen, but work regardless of whether the target is visible.

-Rev leaders convert people by using syndie-style code phrases to activate their mental conditioning. They get the code phrases in their character notes at roundstart; a conversion target's conditioning activates when they hear someone use all of the code phrases in a single statement (hearing the code phrases over comms either doesn't work or has only a one-time 20% chance of working). Mindshield implants will prevent the mental conditioning's activation.

-The conversion process is not instantaneous. Once the conditioning is activated, it takes 4 minutes for the wakeup process to fully take effect. Certain stimuli can speed the process- seeing the revolution graffiti tag and being flashed. ("stimuli_graffiti" and "stimuli_flashed" are both states that last 1 minute, during which further exposure to same stimuli does nothing. Both states increase the conversion rate by a factor of +1, i.e. twice as fast if one is true and three times as fast if both are true.)
--The "tripping" (i.e. space drugs) and "hallucination" (say, from BZ) status effects could also give +1 to the conversion rate, because they make the mind less resistant.

-During the conversion process, things start to get trippy for the target.
--At the 25% mark, anytime someone says something in person, there is a 5% chance to instead hear them say the thing that activated your conditioning.
--At the 50% mark, you have a mild chance to hallucinate in the standard fashion (I dunno how hallucination works under the hood, intent is that they experience one random hallucination about once every minute).
--At the 70% mark, you become moderately disoriented and unable to speak. The chance to replace a statement with the one that activated your conditioning increases to 30% and applies to messages heard over comms as well.
--At the 95% mark, your disorientation becomes severe. All statements heard become one of the activation code phrases. Could throw in some kind of mindscrewy visual effect for good measure.
--At the 100% mark, you collapse and are converted to a rev.

[TribeOfBeavers]

Up to 4 minutes is a long conversion time, what's to stop people from calling out for help or attacking the person trying to convert them?

Would there be a way to interrupt the process?

What happens if a large portion of your initial conversion targets are braindead or suicided or whatever?

Having to use a device to see who you can or can't convert seems a littly clunky, it would probably just get you caught more often than not.

[PKPenguin321]

You know what other mode has heavily paced conversion rates? I will give you a hint, it is disabled from the rotation

[Dagdammit]

Up to 4 minutes is a long conversion time, what's to stop people from calling out for help or attacking the person trying to convert them?

All that has to happen is for the person to say the code phrase someplace where the target can hear them. They can walk away and it'll be at least 60 seconds before the target experiences any kind of symptom, probably longer. The point where symptoms get obvious is the point where the convertee loses the ability to speak.

Also, stacking multiple kinds of stimuli (if you allowed a range of them rather than purely flash and rev graffiti) would potentially get the conversion time down to a minute or less.

Would there be a way to interrupt the process?

Mindshield implant before it completes.

What happens if a large portion of your initial conversion targets are braindead or suicided or whatever?

Maybe algorithm could automatically select someone new if they suicide (and also not include suicides in new convertee selections).

Having to use a device to see who you can or can't convert seems a littly clunky, it would probably just get you caught more often than not.

Frankly, that was kind of the intent. Killing rev leaders is the loyalist victory condition, and this makes the conversion process way less detectable. You can still use it behind walls and in lockers and stuff, so it's more about not getting caught skulking around.

You know what other mode has heavily paced conversion rates? I will give you a hint, it is disabled from the rotation

I'm interested in talking shop on pros and/or cons of paced conversion actually. It seems like a decent idea on paper but I don't have firsthand experience.

[TribeOfBeavers]

Just a few things to note: as revs dont have their own comms, most of the communication happens right as they get converted, or when they go loud. With this conversion method the revhead will almost never be there to tell the new rev what the plan is, or give them supplies, etc. Currently, even if the headrev is just silently converting people, the new revs can still follow them around and just be part of the mob when sec figures out what's going on.

Rev is currently balanced around the fact that conversion is fast and people form mobs. New revs get pretty much nothing but antag status and a team hud, so if conversions are slow they wont have much to do but hang around and wait for the number of revs to reach critical mass. When you give people in this game antag they tend to use it to just fuck shit up, especially if they don't have clear goals. This isnt a huge issue in normal rev becuase everything moves pretty quick and they have a lot of people around them to help, but in this version I'd guess that you would end up with a lot more revs dying as they try to so things solo.

All that said, I do like the idea and theme of code word activated sleeper agents, I just don't think rev would be the gamemode to do it in (at least the current version of it).

[Anonmare]

Yeah Revs saving grace is it's fast-paced conversion mechanic. Revs literally having nothing going for them beyond that and a single Rev is no more difficult to deal with than a regular crewmember.

[cedarbridge]

Yeah Revs saving grace is it's fast-paced conversion mechanic. Revs literally having nothing going for them beyond that and a single Rev is no more difficult to deal with than a regular crewmember.

Yep. Sticking a delay timer on the conversion just ensures that within the X minutes of delay said convert is going to run straight to sec and have the headrev lynched and spaced faster than you can say "viva"

[Dagdammit]

I do get the potential lack of post-convert guidance being a possible problem, that makes sense.

Yeah Revs saving grace is it's fast-paced conversion mechanic. Revs literally having nothing going for them beyond that and a single Rev is no more difficult to deal with than a regular crewmember.

Yep. Sticking a delay timer on the conversion just ensures that within the X minutes of delay said convert is going to run straight to sec and have the headrev lynched and spaced faster than you can say "viva"

Unless the headrev tell a convert to do it, and/or whomever says the thing makes it sound natural enough that the convertee doesn't suspect.

And the only clear clue that can happen before you become silenced is that it appears someone else is saying the same line. It's totally possible that a convertee who didn't give a fuck about meta might still not catch the first time someone says the line. So when the 5% chance crops up twice during the 2ish-minute window before being silenced, the convertee thinks the rev is the first person whose line got altered and tries to get the wrong person lynched.

Really, if the pre-silenced symptoms are too clearly "oh it's rev" and that causes problems we could change them to more ambiguous ones.

[D&B]

From policy point of view, at what point would someone become a rev?

If someone meta'd it, because it would eventually happen, would they be allowed to eat out the headrev, even though the head rev has no way of countering this? And I mean soon enough that it makes a difference, or sending a PDA message or written message to sec.

Would the fast paced game style both servers have during medium-high pop actually allow this to flourish, in your opinion? It seems to me it would fit a lot better in slower servers.

[Dagdammit]

From policy point of view, at what point would someone become a rev?

If someone meta'd it, because it would eventually happen, would they be allowed to eat out the headrev, even though the head rev has no way of countering this? And I mean soon enough that it makes a difference, or sending a PDA message or written message to sec.

Would the fast paced game style both servers have during medium-high pop actually allow this to flourish, in your opinion? It seems to me it would fit a lot better in slower servers.

Good question. I had intended the 100% point, but... hmm.

I can see ways to make it so the convertee really isn't sure who actually converted them (say, they literally don't hear it the first someone states the phrase, or the game just says they whisper something inaudible), which could solve the meta sellout thing, and yet that would only exacerbate the potential trouble of not getting to touch base with head revs & learn their plans...

And that's without getting into the chance of triggering the conversion at a distance- the one-time-per-convertee 20% chance for it to work over comms...

Oh. Maybe there should be notifications like with clock cult conversion traps. Jim Jones the roboticist has joined the revolution!

[Arianya]

I like the concept, but you also have the very real issue of people who don't want to be a rev/meta-loyalists staggering towards sec during their conversion so that sec sees them collapse and likely implants them/otherwise tries to help them.

Possibly conversion finalizing should have a less concrete tell? Not sure.

[Dagdammit]

I like the concept, but you also have the very real issue of people who don't want to be a rev/meta-loyalists staggering towards sec during their conversion so that sec sees them collapse and likely implants them/otherwise tries to help them.

Possibly conversion finalizing should have a less concrete tell? Not sure.

That might be part of the challenge for revs- the built-in conversion mechanic doesn't prevent that scenario, so they have to find other means- stacking stimuli and/or just plain keeping them captive until it clicks.

Say something to the guy that has all the code phrases. Maybe let the first minute play out naturally since it has zero warnings. Then stunbaton, cable cuff, drag into maint, buckle him to a chair in view of a rev tag and flash him for good measure.

Oh- maybe once the conversion process has been initiated, flashes not only blind you but also stun & silence you for a while.

[Screemonster]

If we were going to go the sleeper agent route, I'd rather have conversion be either instant, or show absolutely no signs until you flip so some guy can say a completely innocuous phrase and walk off, then BAM.

Even then people will meta "sentence with a bunch of the listed codewords in, ACTING LIKE AN ANTAG BETTER GET HIM BEFORE I TURN"

[Dagdammit]

Yeah, but that part I'm fine with. Trying to make it sound natural seems like an interesting challenge, and I like the idea of loyalists trying to crack what the code phrases are- which becomes tricky when saying "I think the code phrases are X and Y" is a totally valid way to trigger the conversion (and it doesn't matter if it's a non-rev that says it).

[D&B]

I'm thinking it would be neat if the headrev could set a sentence or bunch of words roundstart that triggers the conversion rather than have it be random like traitor codewords.

[Arianya]

I'm thinking it would be neat if the headrev could set a sentence or bunch of words roundstart that triggers the conversion rather than have it be random like traitor codewords.

Thing is you'd have to have a blacklist of common words, like "and", "is", "the", "rev", etc.

Elsewise people will find cute combinations of words that can accidentally trigger sleeper agents without the person saying them even realizinng they're trigger words.

It'd be the kind of thing where the coder(s) would constantly be trying to patch the holes.

[Weepo]

Your idea only works on a roleplay level. Once it happens once to you you'll instantly know what being converted is like and instantly know when its happening, this is called 'known quantity' and its the bane of roleplayers. Basically what this idea would do is let a player pick or choose to be a revolutionary by altering their behaviors the moment they are messed with in the predictable ways you mentioned, 'OH shit hallucinations better go to security / get my guns!'

I don't like this. Revs don't get special equipment and making them spout memes to convert people feels mean.

[Dagdammit]

Your idea only works on a roleplay level. Once it happens once to you you'll instantly know what being converted is like and instantly know when its happening, this is called 'known quantity' and its the bane of roleplayers. Basically what this idea would do is let a player pick or choose to be a revolutionary by altering their behaviors the moment they are messed with in the predictable ways you mentioned, 'OH shit hallucinations better go to security / get my guns!'

I don't like this. Revs don't get special equipment and making them spout memes to convert people feels mean.

I understand the concept of a known quantity, yes. The conversion symptoms were intended to semi-incapacitate you the moment they escalate beyond (meta) ambiguity, and the exact progression can always be altered to better ensure that's what actually happens. I just didn't thing experiencing one hallucination in the space of a 60-second interval would automatically allow you to conclude it was rev. Are hallucinations that rare on sybil/basil?

Also, what do you mean by spouting memes? Are tgstation syndie codewords all in-jokes now or something?

[Weepo]

Sleeper agent trigger phrases are more closely in line with the concept of memes than internet memes already, but that's basically what I meant. Bellowing out meaningless phrases to convert people is memes.

[Reece]

Could lead to some fun security RP though.
"THE NUMBERS MCGREYSHIT! WHAT DO THEY MEAN!"

[CPTANT]

No what rev really needs is diversity in the conversion items so it is less susceptible to meta.

FLASH, LYNCH HE is the current meta

Having other items such as pens, health scanners or whatever would break that meta.

I'll just make my own thread for that idea.

[Screemonster]

a doctor with a health scanner conversion tool would be robust as fuck 'cause that's a thing people will casually stand still to let you use on them

[D&B]

You could try making them select at roundstart some kind of special item so they can choose as it befits their job or tactic.

EG. Chef headrev could get a special sauce that when used on food triggers a high delay no warning rev conversion, while a clown rev could order a special bike horn that converts people if they get honked 5 times in a row, or special cream pies that convert people if they get hit with it when its thrown (and have a high cooldown to order more.)

[Dagdammit]

Part of the reason I like this idea is that making the codewords seem natural is an interesting challenge. For example, if rev's codewords were Warden and Tomato, the best first move would be to have someone start throwing tomatoes at the warden. If one of the codewords is a name, throw a fit on the radio about how someone with that name attacked you and demand sec search for them- they aren't listed as a crew member, so clearly they're suspicious as hell.