/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:54 am**

Yes this is a meme with me, but I want to discuss it anyway.

After a lot of rounds as the Chief Engineer I've really found it jarring that security has no quick jetpack access, when the CE gets two for free, as well as the Captain getting one. There are EVA Jetpacks but no one in security has access to them.

There's also to consider how massive of a speed advantage a Jetpack grants in space.

I have three thoughts on this subject.

Place a recoloured Jetpack into the Armoury. This is the more balanced approach as the physical Jetpack takes up the backpack slot, which is a massive disadvantage to consider.
Place a Hardsuit Jetpack Upgrade into the Armoury. This is a more powerful approach, the upgrade jetpack does not need to be used in the backpack slot, and only demands the suit storage slot for a gas canister. Allowing you to wield your backpack.
Disagree that Security needs easy access to a jetpack. Security should not be able to easily leave and patrol the exterior of the station, or at least do so with any speed. The security Hardsuits are for when the station is uninhabitable, not for leaving it. Unlike the Captain/CE and certain antags.

You're thoughts?

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:13 am**

Ya boy steelpoint back at it again at sec buffs

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:20 am**

Third one.

If they're in space, get a securitron.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:20 am**

Build one into the HoS' hardsuit, but his only. I agree that sec needs to have some form of recourse in this situation but I think that making jetpacks available to all officers might be a bit overkill

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:21 am**

I agree, HoS only.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:24 am**

Problem is I can't think of any other improvements for other jobs I do.

I already gave the Janitor all the quality of life improvements I can think (and code) a long time ago, the CE already has a vast array of powerful tools at his disposal and mining is not something I'm proficient in enough to judge, and I've already done minor changes for other jobs I like.

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On topic, the fundamental core with this proposal is all based upon one question. Does Security need a way to be mobile while outside in space.

Right now I'm leaning that I think that security should have a method of being quick and mobile outside, but I'm open to a counter argument on why Security should not have that ability, if someone thinks honestly that sec should not be mobile.

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Edit: Since everyone started replying as I was typing.

Weather this is a HoS only or a Armoury only item may be a point of contention. However my proposal is there should be only a single Security jetpack. Which means likely it'll be only available to the HoS.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:25 am**

Also I can build it into the HoS's Hardsuit, but that would mean he has a in built jetpack. Many may consider that to be too powerful.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:47 am**

The voting is currently swinging in favour of a sec jetpack, but slightly more in favor of a inbuilt one for the HoSs hardsuit.

Too early to call the vote but I'll consider it for a future PR later on.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:53 am**

Heads' hardsuits are supposed to be very strong; CE's gets the jetpack on top of full fireproofing and rad immunity. Even adding an internal jetpack the HoS hardsuit will still probably be inferior.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:02 pm**

The main 'perk' of the HoS's Hardsuit is meant to be that it is more heavily armoured than other station bound Hardsuits.

Though in practice that bonus means very little, if you compare even the CE's Hardsuit to the HoS's you see the extra armour amounts to little.

I could list them out but the short of it is that usually the HoS's Hardsuit gets around 5 extra melee and around 10 to 20 extra bullet/laser, but loses out on everything else of note. Also of note, but having a little extra armour is worthless in space if the other guy can move at the games maximum speed limit while you are moving at a much slower pace and on a predictable pattern.

There's no real 'omph' to using the HoS's hardsuit, there's nothing really cool or unique that makes it stand out, and that is because everyone is afraid of giving the HoS something good that might be seen as overpowered.

I feel a jetpack would be a nice omph factor.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:12 pm**

That is obviously a good reason to go the other way and give the HoS suit a lockdown option that drastically increases its armour but prevents the wearer from moving at all.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:23 pm**

DemonFiren wrote:That is obviously a good reason to go the other way and give the HoS suit a lockdown option that drastically increases its armour but prevents the wearer from moving at all.

In a game where standing still=death and one stun ends a fight, that is a horrible idea.

That being said, why not give sec magboots instead of a jetpack? it would allow for easier and safer exploration of the outside of the station while still having security be at a disadvantage in EVA.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:33 pm**

Dr_bee wrote:That being said, why not give sec magboots instead of a jetpack? it would allow for easier and safer exploration of the outside of the station while still having security be at a disadvantage in EVA.

The only real benefit of Magboots is for combating space wind, it really provides no other tangible benefit in space last I checked. Though its a good counter to slips if you get the CE's Magboots.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:53 pm**

Steelpoint wrote:Yes this is a meme with me, but I want to discuss it anyway.

After a lot of rounds as the Chief Engineer I've really found it jarring that security has no quick jetpack access, when the CE gets two for free, as well as the Captain getting one. There are EVA Jetpacks but no one in security has access to them.

There's also to consider how massive of a speed advantage a Jetpack grants in space.

I have three thoughts on this subject.

Place a recoloured Jetpack into the Armoury. This is the more balanced approach as the physical Jetpack takes up the backpack slot, which is a massive disadvantage to consider.

Place a Hardsuit Jetpack Upgrade into the Armoury. This is a more powerful approach, the upgrade jetpack does not need to be used in the backpack slot, and only demands the suit storage slot for a gas canister. Allowing you to wield your backpack.

Disagree that Security needs easy access to a jetpack. Security should not be able to easily leave and patrol the exterior of the station, or at least do so with any speed. The security Hardsuits are for when the station is uninhabitable, not for leaving it. Unlike the Captain/CE and certain antags.
You're thoughts?

can we just give me sprites so i can give security a snowflake flightsuit? :^)
and before you ask, no, 99% of people won't be able to use it without smashing their face into a wall, but it has better armor then literally everything sec has and is fun as fuck and gives you higher vision range so i think that's good :^)

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:56 pm**

What's a flightsuit?

E: Nevermind I picked it up.

I dunno, a jetpack is a easier additon than a flightsuit and I can do the jetpack.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:00 pm**

Steelpoint wrote:What's a flightsuit?

E: Nevermind I picked it up.

I dunno, a jetpack is a easier additon than a flightsuit and I can do the jetpack.

i can do either in like 30 seconds so doesn't matter to me, if i give security a flightsuit it'll be weaker than the r&d version but still usable in concept, and it would probably be faster than a jetpack in the long run. Kek.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:11 pm**

>go to EVA
>ask the AI to open it or break in
>get the jetpack

Anyway, I'd say sec doesn't need it. Only a few people on the station have access to them and traitors cant buy them from uplinks.
So with this, sec would outmatch most space traitors with no effort, even if they spend their TC on hardsuits.
Space traitors used to be somewhat scary, making people stay away from outer areas if they wanted to be safe, but these days sec typically goes into space after them quickly since they dont even have to make the minimal effort of going to EVA.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:12 pm**

Flightsuit seems more powerful by nature of its ability to be used in doors, it also seems buggy (I kept getting teleported backwards when I was indoors to areas I was just in). Also it seems to have unlimited fuel.

The Jetpack seems far simpler to implement at this time.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:22 pm**

Steelpoint wrote:Flightsuit seems more powerful by nature of its ability to be used in doors, it also seems buggy (I kept getting teleported backwards when I was indoors to areas I was just in). Also it seems to have unlimited fuel.

The Jetpack seems far simpler to implement at this time.

fuck.
make a bug report i swear i fixed all the teleport bugs

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:29 pm**

Done: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/23897

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:47 pm**

I've put up a PR here: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/23898

For the time being its more to get a sense of exactly what my proposal is at this time.

Its currently going to put a Jetpack Upgrade Module inside the HoS's Hardsuit, as is the more popular pro suggestion.

Its not set in stone

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:28 pm**

Yes this is a meme with me, but I want to discuss it anyway.

After a lot of rounds as the Chief Engineer I've really found it jarring that medbay has no quick jetpack access, when the CE gets two for free, as well as the Captain getting one. There are EVA Jetpacks but no one in Medbay has access to them.

There's also to consider how massive of a speed advantage a Jetpack grants in space.

I have three thoughts on this subject.

Place a recoloured Jetpack into the Medical Storage room. This is the more balanced approach as the physical Jetpack takes up the backpack slot, which is a massive disadvantage to consider.
Place a Hardsuit Jetpack Upgrade into the Medical Storage room. This is a more powerful approach, the upgrade jetpack does not need to be used in the backpack slot, and only demands the suit storage slot for a gas canister. Allowing you to wield your backpack.
Disagree that Medbay needs easy access to a jetpack. Medbay should not be able to easily leave and retrieve bodies from the exterior of the station, or at least do so with any speed. The Medbay Hardsuit is for when the station is uninhabitable, not for leaving it. Unlike the Captain/CE and certain antags.

Your thoughts?

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:36 pm**

There's a critical difference between the Chief Medical Officer in space and the Head of Security in space.

One needs to recover dead bodies that are almost always lying somewhere on the exterior of the station. The other is fighting people whom oft are also equipped with some form of jetpack.

The Jetpacks in game practicality comes twofold. Firstly its important for engineers seeking to construct new rooms or even free standing buildings in space. Secondly its critical for any form of space based combat, as without it you are a very slow, predictable and easy target.

The nature of retrieving corpses is not one of expedience.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:51 pm**

Sec doesn't need jetpacks.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:06 pm**

So why does Engineering get two advance jetpacks round start?

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:15 pm**

Probably because Engineering actually has a job to do in space where as security only rarely has an excuse or need to go into space as once someone has left the station actually apprehending them in next to impossible with or without a jetpack.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:20 pm**

There are only two circumstances ever where Engineering has a legitimate need, and I mean need, of a jetpack.

The first is if the Engineers want to construct a free standing structure in the middle of space, a jetpack lets them do that viably, otherwise it would require them to screw around with lattices to set things up.

The second is if the singularity has been released and has caused massive destruction to the station, a jetpack here not only lets the Engineers avoid the singularity (which they should not have allowed to escape) but to reconstruct vital areas of the station like the escape wing.

Security has a need for a jetpack because without them it is literally impossible for security to stop a antagonist in space who possesses one.

---------------

Engineering and Security both have good reasons to want to possess a jetpack, and right now I think that the CE and HoS are both justified to have a jetpack in some capacity.

They are meant to be the best and most able to do their job, and the mental image of seeing the HoS stuck outside EVA begging the AI, or someone, to let him in is stupid.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:22 pm**

captain sawrge wrote:Sec doesn't need jetpacks.

Actually they very much NEED jetpacks. Any threat to the armory, nuke ops or any other space threat makes sec completely impotent to react without jetpacks. And the first thing I do when such a scenario occurs is nag the AI or a head to open EVA for one, which has mixed results because either the jetpacks are already gone, the HoP is precisely the asshole you want to kill in space or the AI thinks its funny to pump plasma everywhere. Security not having jetpacks makes the entirety of space a safe zone for any antag.

You disagreeing with sec GETTING jetpacks is an entirely different matter.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:12 pm**

I've changed the PR from a inbuilt Hardsuit Jetpack to a external Security Jetpack.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:33 pm**

Security getting jetpacks is a point I'd only agree with if medbay also got a jetpack, OR there's a general concensus that security should be a force primarily for defending its station from external threats, rather than internal policing... or both.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:38 pm**

Neither of them need jetpacks.
Engineering does in order to facilitate fixing large scale breaches. Go requisition one of them or EVA if things get desperate.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:01 pm**

Giving HoS a jetpack would just be opening the door for CMO/RD to get jetpacks and probably nail the coffin for the HoP to get his own speshul softsuit too.

Engi has jetpacks because they are expected to function in a zero g environment. Security's job is to defend the station, wearing a hardsuit for any reason other than going into a probably breached area is pointless since the majority of antags going into space need to return to the station sooner or later, or they are nukes and the nuke ship is meant to be nigh impenetrable to crew. If someone stole the jetpacks from EVA than security should have been doing a better job.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:00 pm**

Davidchan wrote:Giving HoS a jetpack would just be opening the door for CMO/RD to get jetpacks and probably nail the coffin for the HoP to get his own speshul softsuit too.
.

The last thing this game needs is for HoPs to have some excuse to feel even more important when they aren't.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:49 pm**

captain sawrge wrote:Neither of them need jetpacks.
Engineering does in order to facilitate fixing large scale breaches. Go requisition one of them or EVA if things get desperate.

Fixing breaches doesn't require a jetpack at all. You can just fix them from the edges, you have all the time in the world and breaches don't fire bullets at you that require dodging.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:02 pm**

Complaining that one job is powercreeping so the other job should powercreep as well seems a bit silly.

If you dislike engies having jetpacks, how does adding jetpacks to a totally different job help?

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:26 pm**

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Complaining that one job is powercreeping so the other job should powercreep as well seems a bit silly.

If you dislike engies having jetpacks, how does adding jetpacks to a totally different job help?

I am not saying anything like that.

I am saying the argument that engineers "need" a jetpack is rather flawed compared to how much security needs a jetpack.

Also everyone but sec having jetpacks makes them just more impotent against people in space.

But as I have already said in the PR, I would want to see all build in jetpacks removed or severely nerfed since regular jetpacks are just inferior now.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:50 pm**

CPTANT wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Complaining that one job is powercreeping so the other job should powercreep as well seems a bit silly.

If you dislike engies having jetpacks, how does adding jetpacks to a totally different job help?
I am not saying anything like that.

I am saying the argument that engineers "need" a jetpack is rather flawed compared to how much security needs a jetpack.

Also everyone but sec having jetpacks makes them just more impotent against people in space.

But as I have already said in the PR, I would want to see all build in jetpacks removed or severely nerfed since regular jetpacks are just inferior now.

Sorry, I was not referencing your post when I made mine.

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:06 am**

One question brought up by oranges in the PR is that should the Security Jetpack spawn in the HoSs Suit Storage Unit or should it spawn inside a Security EVA room?

If we go with the Sec EVA then I would have to remap all maps to accommodate a EVA, and I'm not very confident in that for some maps.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:22 pm**

On the Jetpack situation.

I've gone back to the idea of using a Inbuilt Jetpack. Since the Inbuilt Jetpack was nerfed to be move at a slower rate in space, I find this to be a acceptable jetpack to use.

Still waiting for someone to approve the requested change that's been lingering around for four days.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:51 pm**

it shouldn't be in the HOS's hardsuit only. HOS is supposed to only get directly involved in crime if there's a major emergency. For a crook in space he should be able to seen a couple goons after them.

/tg/Station 13

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