The Identity System

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JJRcop
 
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The Identity System

Postby JJRcop » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:57 pm #253580

I currently have a PR up about an identity system I've made. It changes the way you see names, so you actually have a memory of people's voices, or not.

I don't really feel like retyping everything again so you can find out more info in the wiki page draft I created. https://tgstation13.org/wiki/User:JJRcop/Identity

The PR itself is here https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/23693
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/25016


Please discuss. I am sorry I didn't make a forum post like this much sooner.
Last edited by JJRcop on Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby Deitus » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:23 pm #253627

JJRcop wrote:I currently have a PR up about an identity system I've made. It changes the way you see names, so you actually have a memory of people's voices, or not.

I don't really feel like retyping everything again so you can find out more info in the wiki page draft I created. https://tgstation13.org/wiki/User:JJRcop/Identity

The PR itself is here https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/23693


Please discuss. I am sorry I didn't make a forum post like this much sooner.


i actually like this idea but too many people are against it tbh
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Re: The Identity System

Postby Lumbermancer » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:36 pm #253634

Interesting, but I'm not sure about the manager thingy.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby danno » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:40 pm #253635

Just unnecessary.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby AnonymousNow » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:45 pm #253636

Unnecessary obfuscation. If it's supposed to aid RP, I'm not seeing it.

Put a poll up.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby Wyzack » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:58 pm #253645

No point, goofball will just call more people from goonstation to upvote it
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Re: The Identity System

Postby scrubs2009 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:04 pm #253648

Was that the one that had a test merge earlier this week? If so delet this. Twas not a fun time
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Re: The Identity System

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:48 pm #253708

Hate it a lot
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Re: The Identity System

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:49 pm #253732

As much as I'd like players to recognize other characters by appearance (Why does the CMO suddenly have blonde hair? Is that really the CMO?) I don't see this adding what it claims to add.

If we want people to have to talk and talk face to face, I'd rather we just removed the Common channel from headsets and left station-wide communications to announcements and intercomms.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby DemonFiren » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:02 am #253737

Shame we don't have realtime voice chat, else radios could be made to work in half-duplex mode.
No talking while someone else is talking, should probably cut down on the chatter.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:12 am #253740

Thinking about it now. Headsets didn't come along until several years into SS13's dev. That's why we even have intercomms in the first place. If you wanted to talk outside your department you had to find an intercom to yell into instead of just prowling maint screaming WGW.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby Dagdammit » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:05 pm #253984

Can we get pics of new interface?

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Re: The Identity System

Postby JJRcop » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:34 am #256272

These are some notes I have gathered from feedback that I'm working on now.

Question marks mean I'm not completely certain.
examine needs to be better
click on names in chat to rename them, don't use the identity manager for this, but keep it around still
list lengths should be defines
move global regex vars to be static vars in the procs (and probably remove /proc/consonants)
raz doesn't like var/_these_vars
add friends??
IDs have the picture on them...??? (i don't like this idea, not going to do it for right now but will reconsider in the future)
limited range for faceprint gathering?
config file for pre-knowns
add accents
some form of help
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Re: The Identity System

Postby JJRcop » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:03 am #266288

Completed notes, new PR up at https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/25016.

Please do not comment in that PR unless it is code related, keep comments about the system itself aside from the code in this thread.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:37 am #266309

I'd like to say that I've reviewed this a bit more and it's not as awful as what I saw initially.

What I like:
- The whole accents system is cool. Not sure if you did or not, but being able to set a custom accent for your player would be sweet.

- The system's ability to automatically identify people as "Doctor" or "Engineer" based off of what they're wearing instead of a generic "Unknown"

What I dislike:
- The radio. The radio absolutely needs to show names instead of everybody being unknown. I don't know if you addressed this yet, but it is a must before this can go through.

- How you add people to your memory. Click-to-edit is nice, but a big clunky identity panel sounds like a pain in the ass. If somebody doesn't talk at you, there's not really a fast way to add them to your memory as far as I can tell. I'd like it if you could examine them, and if they're wearing anything like an ID that has their name then they're just automatically added to your memory as that name.

What I'm Iffy On:
- Not knowing anybody at roundstart. It could work for paranoia, but I can also see it being a massive pain in the ass that makes the game really unfun. I'd like if this particular aspect was left up to being a config option, so we can try it and turn it off easily if it goes as poorly as expected. This is kind of helped in the whole "departments know each other" thing, but considering how often you move outside your department, it's not helped by much.


I think the system is worth trying, provided it gets some of these tweaks (especially the radio one).
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Re: The Identity System

Postby ShadowDimentio » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:43 am #266310

I'm gonna have to see demonstrations of this at work before I decide but this really sounds needlessly annoying for very little gain. The radio thing is absolutely unacceptable though.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby JJRcop » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:30 am #266317

PKPenguin321 wrote:I'd like to say that I've reviewed this a bit more and it's not as awful as what I saw initially.

What I like:
- The whole accents system is cool. Not sure if you did or not, but being able to set a custom accent for your player would be sweet.

- The system's ability to automatically identify people as "Doctor" or "Engineer" based off of what they're wearing instead of a generic "Unknown"

What I dislike:
- The radio. The radio absolutely needs to show names instead of everybody being unknown. I don't know if you addressed this yet, but it is a must before this can go through.

- How you add people to your memory. Click-to-edit is nice, but a big clunky identity panel sounds like a pain in the ass. If somebody doesn't talk at you, there's not really a fast way to add them to your memory as far as I can tell. I'd like it if you could examine them, and if they're wearing anything like an ID that has their name then they're just automatically added to your memory as that name.

What I'm Iffy On:
- Not knowing anybody at roundstart. It could work for paranoia, but I can also see it being a massive pain in the ass that makes the game really unfun. I'd like if this particular aspect was left up to being a config option, so we can try it and turn it off easily if it goes as poorly as expected. This is kind of helped in the whole "departments know each other" thing, but considering how often you move outside your department, it's not helped by much.


I think the system is worth trying, provided it gets some of these tweaks (especially the radio one).


I am going to keep the unknowns on the radio thing for now, because I want to try it out and see how it goes. This is not necessarily the final form of this system, I am still open to change.
The accents were added to help with this. Right now it's a select few (5) extra colors, font unchanged, Arial, Georgia, or Cambria, and slightly bigger, slightly smaller, or unchanged size. If this isn't distinct enough we can add more colors and pretty much whatever else we want. I'm not making them player-customizable right now because they were specifically made to combat the wall of indistinguishable anonymous' on the common channel.

About the adding people to memory. You have "two memories", voices and faces. If you examine someone that hasn't talked (while visible) in the past 50 seconds then you will remember their FACE from then on, so whenever you examine them again you'll get the same name no matter what they are wearing as long as you can see their face, but if someone never speaks to you at all, then you won't ever be able to attach a name to their voice, since you've never heard it before.

I'm leaving the identity manager in as a supplement to the click to edit, it may be clunky, but it has its uses.

I created a config file here where you can config which jobs know each other automatically. If you wanted everyone to know each other at roundstart, just put every job in the same group. The system doesn't use the config file unless the LOAD_JOBS_FROM_TXT option is enabled, otherwise it uses hard coded defaults. This would not apply to nukeops or non-crew antags.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:03 am #266323

JJRcop wrote:I am going to keep the unknowns on the radio thing for now, because I want to try it out and see how it goes.

We've seen how it goes, it's absolutely awful. As long as this is still in the PR, I do not want the PR to be merged.

JJRcop wrote:About the adding people to memory. You have "two memories", voices and faces. If you examine someone that hasn't talked (while visible) in the past 50 seconds then you will remember their FACE from then on, so whenever you examine them again you'll get the same name no matter what they are wearing as long as you can see their face, but if someone never speaks to you at all, then you won't ever be able to attach a name to their voice, since you've never heard it before.

I'm leaving the identity manager in as a supplement to the click to edit, it may be clunky, but it has its uses.


That's fine, but my suggestion was to add people to your voice memory (which should really be name memory) when you examine them. If you see a person and see their name, then when they talk you should be able to associate their name to their voice.

Basically what I'm getting at is that name entry is way too manual and needs to be more of an automatic process.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby Luke Cox » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:18 am #266324

I can appreciate the idea behind this, but it is going to end horribly. I guarantee it.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby IcePacks » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:19 am #266325

I can give you a couple reasons why this system just doesn't belong.

It's in service of literally nothing but realism. Space Station 13 is a game about a space station in the distant future. We have wizards, alien lifeforms that transform their bodies into various tools projectiles that we can easily dodge and outrun, lizardpeople, slimepeople, zombiepeople, catpeople, shadowpeople, skeletonpeople, and flypeople. Realism is hardly welcome, especially if it's an extremely hard nerf to our ability to, y'know, identify other people. We already have a system for that. Speaking of...

It's inferior to the system it replaces. We already have an identity system. It's actually kind of a draw to the game (for me, at least) and one of the features that we've scarcely changed since through the game's long, varied development cycle, and for a good reason. It's easy simple enough to pick up quickly and easy to use. We have various tools that allow people to disguise and change their outward identity and a few traitor tools that allow us to change our identity when we speak (which is kind of a big deal) and even further tools to change our identity beyond that in a specific department. Nothing needs to change about this.

It'll make changeling rounds even more frustrating. We've come a long way from parasting/mutesting combos, but dying to a changeling can still be a frustrating, difficult affair with varying degrees of risk for the changeling themselves. This stands to throw all of that way out of whack when people are only identified by their jobs or their physical attributes unless you stop and thoroughly examine them or, god forbid, stop and make an actual note of their name.

An identity manager runs into snags with meta. This "identity manager" concept seems to be a way to circumvent the frustration of everyone being unknown to you by allowing you to set the name for the individual yourself. What this ultimately would mean is that every round, every time you see someone you know out-of-character, you already know who they are in-character, which defeats the entire purpose of the system altogether. At best, this will probably just make it a hassle that you have to micro-manage every round just to identify everyone you already know.

This is not a solution to the problem it tries to address. A traitor's cover is usually blown the second someone identifies them as such over the radio. This is a radio problem. Hiding everyone's name from everyone else unless you wrestle with a system dedicated to hindering your ability to identify everyone does not fix this. If anything, this is a heavy-handed approach when people are unable to identify both the guilty and the innocent parties. Which brings me to my last point:

The confusion caused by this system would fucking suck. Tell me a time you were arrested or killed for someone else's shit and thought "Wow! Well played!" You haven't. Making this rare, extremely frustrating occurrence happen much more easily borders on punishment. Don't do it.

Ultimately, I feel that you could've ceased developing this system a while ago. It was an utter nightmare upon its half-implementation and none of the changes you have made to it make it feel any better to me. You've wasted your time, unfortunately, and I don't think another implementation would even be necessary to see that this would have no benefit for the game or its players and a ton of drawbacks.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby Lumbermancer » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:01 am #266350

Bryce Pax is correct, but...

IcePacks wrote:Nothing needs to change about this.


It doesn't need to, but could. What if you could wear all clothes of the person, change your haircut, and pose as them without their id? Until closer examination of course. A little effort would let you slip by security while also being less suspicious.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby Luke Cox » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:47 am #270957

So this just got testmerged. I don't think a single person liked it. Let it go, JJR
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Re: The Identity System

Postby francinum » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:51 am #270958

This is conceptually terrible, you have been repeatedly told this is conceptually terrible. WHY ARE YOU NOT LISTENING.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby LifeReign » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:56 am #270960

So yeah, this is still nonfunctional. Beepsky can't identify people, so now security gets a whole load of "Arrested Person". Still don't know how this is going to play out with: pod cloning, agent cards, voice changers, genetics UI and/or UE, mutation toxin, staff of change, wizard summon events mindswap, wizard mindswap spell, changeling identity swap, brain swap into cloning, and possibly a few more I don't remember. Fonts are out of place and look bad, mouseover is still broken (and if it can't work because of byond, maybe this is just slightly a bad idea).

This is also a buff to all antags across the board, and makes security life hell unless security goes past JLP into full hitler every round.

Also, apparently it will still break:

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Re: The Identity System

Postby oranges » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:00 am #270961

francinum wrote:This is conceptually terrible, you have been repeatedly told this is conceptually terrible. WHY ARE YOU NOT LISTENING.

Because you're not the entire playerbase and more than half of them disagree with you

http://www.ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/ingamepolls.php#p161

edit:same goes for you cox

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Re: The Identity System

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:12 am #270962

oranges wrote:
francinum wrote:This is conceptually terrible, you have been repeatedly told this is conceptually terrible. WHY ARE YOU NOT LISTENING.

Because you're not the entire playerbase and more than half of them disagree with you

http://www.ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/ingamepolls.php#p161

edit:same goes for you cox

I'd guess a good amount of the playerbase wasn't around for the like 3 testmerges of this we had before the poll went up

Testmerges which, might I add, were all dumpster fires
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Re: The Identity System

Postby ChemicalRascal » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:13 am #270963

I mean, there's certainly issues to be resolved, but to be honest I think this has potential. Certainly, though, stuff like SecHUDs need to reveal identities and such.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby oranges » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:17 am #270966

PKPenguin321 wrote:
oranges wrote:
francinum wrote:This is conceptually terrible, you have been repeatedly told this is conceptually terrible. WHY ARE YOU NOT LISTENING.

Because you're not the entire playerbase and more than half of them disagree with you

http://www.ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/ingamepolls.php#p161

edit:same goes for you cox

I'd guess a good amount of the playerbase wasn't around for the like 3 testmerges of this we had before the poll went up

Testmerges which, might I add, were all dumpster fires

The system wont' be actually fully merged until they get it to a working state, so it's not like we're just going to merge it in a completely broken state for an entire month, the bugs will get fixed first, then we will merge it for the month.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby Luke Cox » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:52 am #270975

I cannot believe you people are seriously giving this consideration. After the testmerge today, the system is almost universally hated. Most of the votes in that poll became before the testmerge. There is no demand for this feature. It doesn't solve any problems. It has no purpose.

People weren't criticizing the bugs, they were criticizing the idea.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby Remie Richards » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:19 am #270986

As I explained on the PR, that Poll is meaningless, it simply says people want to test it more, it does NOT say that they like it.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby oranges » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:42 am #270995

Uh how is it meaningless, people literally voted for more tests so we're running more tests, I think that would be the definition of meaningful.

Nobody's suggesting the idea be permanently added to the game without a final poll that lets people vote on the idea itself.

There are two hurdles in the way of the pr being properly tested
1) Bugs and issues that make it not conform to the developers vision
solution: find and fix bugs with test merges
2) Initial player reaction to any system that has any impact on the play of the game (something you youself should be aware of having developed major features yourself)
solution: extended test merge to get over the intial impact hump and embed the system so people can make a better decision about how they feel about it.

We even ran a poll to ensure people were happy for 2) to begin, I don't see how anyone can find this decision controversial at all, there's no argument to be made that we're somehow subverting the process, if anything it's been far more involved and drawn out than we usually would, mostly because of the initial vociferous reaction.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby Remie Richards » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:56 am #271000

It should never have even got this far.
It should have remained JJ's shitty idea that I shot down in coderbus a year ago.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby oranges » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:11 am #271002

Luke Cox wrote: Most of the votes in that poll became before the testmerge.

I'm going to ignore most of your point because you're just rehashing your argument with more emotive words, however I can't let one part stand as it's a blatant lie.

Danno's comment on the tracker on the 5th of feb of the pr shows it was test merged on that day
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The poll was not started until the 16th of febuary, 2017-02-16 05:19:08 - 2017-02-22 05:19:08

To suggest the "majority" of votes in the poll came before the test merge is disgustingly unfactual.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby Qbopper » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:10 pm #271031

I don't see myself being in favor of this any time soon, unless there's a massive rework and it becomes much better immediately

Even just the annoyance of "HAHA I SPAM WGW NIGGER ON RADIO" is enough to make it leave a bad taste in my mouth, and that's ignoring the effects on gameplay
Limey wrote:its too late.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby kevinz000 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:22 pm #271043

Has no place in TG until average round times go past 1 hour and 30 minutes, and players learn that RP in a RPG is important.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:43 pm #271099

What Kev said. Also, its a change that doesn't take into account that every person on the station has a roundstart headset that calls to the common radio channel. Expecting that people will and will only meet face to face to know who is who is silly when they have no reason to do so. This isn't pre-headset SS13 where the only means of full-station contact was the wall-mounted intercomms that almost nobody uses now. Its honestly a little immersion breaking for me that we even have highpop rounds with 90 nerds all yelling into a shared comms channel at once, but its not something I forsee changing.

Like many proposed changes, and I've said this about this one too, it proposes a fix to a problem without stating the problem or how the fix resolves it.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby Luke Cox » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:44 pm #271100

oranges wrote:
Luke Cox wrote: -snip-

That means it was started a month ago. Most of the votes came before yesterday.

Edit: Wait, that's February, not March. Before all testmerges as far as I'm aware. Jesus christ how dense are you Oranges?
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Re: The Identity System

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:52 pm #271121

There were test merges but only two or three afaik meaning only about 100 people actually played it

Also, please make the radio always display names. Unknowns on the radio is game breaking
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Re: The Identity System

Postby oranges » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:46 pm #271175

Luke Cox wrote:
oranges wrote:
Luke Cox wrote: -snip-

That means it was started a month ago. Most of the votes came before yesterday.

Edit: Wait, that's February, not March. Before all testmerges as far as I'm aware. Jesus christ how dense are you Oranges?

Are you fucking completely retarded? The code was tested merged on the 5th of feburary, I provided explicit proof of that fact, how can you continue to claim the poll was before the test merge.

THIS PR HAS BEEN OPENED BEFORE AND WAS CLOSED AND REOPEND TO PROVIDE A NEW FRESH SLATE FOR FEEDBACK.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby JJRcop » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:47 am #277292

Took a break from working on this, but I plan to make it much more passive, so that if you interact with someone in any way (clicking on them at any distance, no matter if the interaction was successful or not) you remember them, where before, this would only happen on examination.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby Remie Richards » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:57 am #277299

Just. Stop.
私は完璧

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Re: The Identity System

Postby oranges » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:57 am #277314

The same could be said to you remie

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Re: The Identity System

Postby Remie Richards » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:01 am #277316

Excellent response, really, congratulations, golf clap.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby oranges » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:06 am #277318

REmie please this is hurting you

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Re: The Identity System

Postby Remie Richards » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:10 am #277321

How is it?
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Re: The Identity System

Postby Qbopper » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:41 pm #277427

I'm going to ask you a question JJR and please don't take personal offense to it

do you ACTUALLY think there's a snowball's chance in hell this will be merged? Seriously, is there anyone who unironically likes and wants this
Limey wrote:its too late.

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Re: The Identity System

Postby JJRcop » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:44 am #277827

Qbopper wrote:I'm going to ask you a question JJR and please don't take personal offense to it

do you ACTUALLY think there's a snowball's chance in hell this will be merged? Seriously, is there anyone who unironically likes and wants this

Yes and yes.

No offense taken. :)
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Re: The Identity System

Postby Luke Cox » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:39 am #277831

Seriously dude, don't waste your time on this.

@Oranges: Testmerge I'm talking about was in March when I made those posts. Don't know if there were previous testmerges, but the one I was there for was conducted a month after that poll, therefore I don't think it's accurate to use that poll as a barometer for public support. Everyone hated the system last time it was testmerged, just let it die.
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Re: The Identity System

Postby oranges » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:16 am #277867

apparently it's fine to use your opinion as a barometer for public opinion though

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Re: The Identity System

Postby Qbopper » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:40 pm #277994

JJRcop wrote:
Qbopper wrote:I'm going to ask you a question JJR and please don't take personal offense to it

do you ACTUALLY think there's a snowball's chance in hell this will be merged? Seriously, is there anyone who unironically likes and wants this

Yes and yes.

No offense taken. :)


I'm not sure I've heard anyone else in favor of this but if that's actually the case I'll close my mouth

I think you'll have more difficulty getting this merged than robustin's point system, though, so good luck on that
Limey wrote:its too late.

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