/tg/Station 13

Unless like >70% of crew is dead.

And remove round-ending engines.

this is a good idea. If sec beat the nuke ops, the round immediately becomes pseudo-rev as they execute half the crew to go home.

>Forcing people to play a round they don't want to play anymore
>Adding one of the biggest cons of MOBAS to ss13

D&B wrote:>Forcing people to play a round they don't want to play anymore
>Adding one of the biggest cons of MOBAS to ss13

>forcing someone to play
Just close the game or go to the other server

Incoming tried to test something like this but admins rebelled and said they'd force end the round every time so we'll never know if it works or not unless headmins are also in favour of testing it.

Yes the mulligan system was supposed to fix this as kor said, but I was too nice and gave the admins an easy to use override for rounds that were too fucked to continue. They then proceeded to use that override nearly every time, even when it was a five minute in dead wizard.

As a result the feature essentially died with me only porting extended/traitor/changeling/traitorchan to mulligan'd rounds before I realized it wasn't worth the effort given the reception.

I can work more on the concept, but to be frank I'd need some reassurances that they'd actually be used before I willingly touch game mode code again.

I'm in favor of a test of this

It's frustrating when the crew insta calls for something like abductors (yes this happens)

I don't know if I'd go for an hour, but at least extend the wait time

Incoming wrote:Yes the mulligan system was supposed to fix this as kor said, but I was too nice and gave the admins an easy to use override for rounds that were too fucked to continue. They then proceeded to use that override nearly every time, even when it was a five minute in dead wizard.

As a result the feature essentially died with me only porting extended/traitor/changeling/traitorchan to mulligan'd rounds before I realized it wasn't worth the effort given the reception.

I can work more on the concept, but to be frank I'd need some reassurances that they'd actually be used before I willingly touch game mode code again.

I think he was referring to https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/13190 but Mulligan has similar issues of admins overriding it

The playerbase will revolt if you try this, I guarantee it.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:this is a good idea. If sec beat the nuke ops, the round immediately becomes pseudo-rev as they execute half the crew to go home.

i like it

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:this is a good idea. If sec beat the nuke ops, the round immediately becomes pseudo-rev as they execute half the crew to go home.

how is this different from insta-launches that leave half the crew marooned?

captain sawrge wrote:Unless like >70% of crew is dead.

And remove round-ending engines.

Why do you hate chaos

ShadowDimentio wrote:

captain sawrge wrote:Unless like >70% of crew is dead.

And remove round-ending engines.

Why do you hate chaos

>Chaos happens
>Shuttle is forcecalled round is over fresh start
Why do you hate chaos

>Why do I hate chaos

Chaos isn't the CE demanding we stay here while he and the atmos tech repair the three breached hallways from the traitor that you killed minutes ago, or waiting for the ten dead crew from the murderboner you also dunked to get cloned.

Real talk though: Here's how rounds progress

10-20 minutes: Crew and antags get their bearing, start doing their jobs and antagging it up. There's the occasional antag acting early but many are still setting up. Medium intensity.
20-40 minutes: Crew have dunked several of the antags, but the few left have started to snowball, as have the crew. Most jobs are done/nearly done and all that's left to do is fight, which the surviving antags are willing to answer to. High intensity.
40-60 minutes: One side has burned out, either the crew have killed all the antags or the antags have killed all the crew. The shuttle is either on it's way or the crew are starting to go braindead/bitch in deadchat out of boredome. Low intenity.
60+ minutes: Nothing is happening. Antags or the heads are stalling the shuttle call. Everyone is bored and are starting to fight with each other in deadchat or in game for entertainment. Very low intensity.

After 40 minutes the round is just waiting to end. Forcing people to wait an extra twenty minutes just because some chucklefuck admins thing it would be a good idea would get old immediately unless said admins were actively keeping the players engaged, but >active admins

let me tell you that generalizing ss13 rounds beyond "someone dies" is a huge mistake

rounds used to last 1hr+ and it was fine you braindead little fuck shadow

Acceptable round length is completely contingent on the round type, who's playing, what's going on, etc. Sometimes 1+ hour rounds are great, sometimes it's deathly boring after 30 minutes. Trying to force a single standard is a terrible idea.

Thats why the mulligan was coded though

Just let the players decide. If the crew wants to stay, they'll yell at the captain to stay and one of the heads will recall it.

Luke Cox wrote:Just let the players decide. If the crew wants to stay, they'll yell at the captain to stay and one of the heads will recall it.

There are 5 players in a round of 50-90 that get to decide, though.

captain sawrge wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:Just let the players decide. If the crew wants to stay, they'll yell at the captain to stay and one of the heads will recall it.

There are 5 players in a round of 50-90 that get to decide, though.

Yes and you deciding for them before the dice are even cast is an infinite improvement. Bravo.

If you want to make rounds longer
Rather than outright tripling the time until you call the shuttle
Increase it by 5-10 mins, wait for players to get used to it
Then do it again and again, allowing players to hopefully slowly adjust to very-slightly-longer rounds

Bumping this because it's still an issue and still frustrating. A large portion of our jobs exist entirely to deal with shit going bad. Engineering exists to repair and maintain the station, atmos techs exist to put out fires, deal with gas leaks, and repressurize breaches. Security exists to deal with any hostile threats and protect the crew, medbay exists to heal and clone the crew, cargo exists to resupply the crew. Forcing these constant early calls just denies half the jobs a chance to even carry out their assigned task.

I don't think the problem is fixed as simply as extending the shuttle timer, but I honestly think it'd be healthier for the game to take measures to extend round length. Speed up construction times a bit, rebalance some of the traitor gear and maybe try to lessen the focus on mass destruction and murder and allowing a single player to (easily) ruin a station beyond repair. If anyone can come up with incentives to stay on the station, that would help a lot. Part of the game is dealing with the shit thrown at the station as the round progresses. It's a lot less fun when you can just hit the "Restart the game world in 10 minutes" button every time things start looking bad.

Dont you have the ability to measure crew survival percentage as well as station damage percentage? what if you simply locked the shuttle behind a vote until a certain threshold of overall station damage is met.

maybe have the vote shuttle be called crew transfer shuttle and the threshold shuttle be the emergency shuttle.

certain game modes would automatically make the emergency shuttle available, for example wizard and nuke ops.

the problem with longer rounds is some people will need to leave during them, so you may need to implement a cryo player-exit system like some of the higher RP stations. that would prevent one person from calling the shuttle just because they alone are bored with the round while other people are having fun. if the round truly stagnates then a vote with a certain percentage would not be hard to get dont you think?

Dr_bee wrote:Dont you have the ability to measure crew survival percentage as well as station damage percentage? what if you simply locked the shuttle behind a vote until a certain threshold of overall station damage is met.

Yes, both of those stats are measured IIRC, look at the end of round report next time the game ends. Not a bad idea (so long as we don't use the horrendous "I didn't see the vote message" polling system that exists right now)

maybe have the vote shuttle be called crew transfer shuttle and the threshold shuttle be the emergency shuttle.

certain game modes would automatically make the emergency shuttle available, for example wizard and nuke ops.

Only if the timer is extended - also, if the shuttle is available round start people will use that info to metagame. You'd have to have some kinda system in place that only allows it to happen when the crew confirms there are OPs/a wizard, and that doesn't even take into account people in red hardsuits/wizard garb that aren't ops/wizards that people ALWAYS freak out about

the problem with longer rounds is some people will need to leave during them, so you may need to implement a cryo player-exit system like some of the higher RP stations. that would prevent one person from calling the shuttle just because they alone are bored with the round while other people are having fun. if the round truly stagnates then a vote with a certain percentage would not be hard to get dont you think?

I'm not sure what you mean by "cryo system" here

EDIT: As a reply to the bump, I still find this problem obnoxious too, some rounds you get cool heads who don't call it until things go far south and the crew gets to do their jobs, but there's a lot of rounds where it feels like the captain is sitting in the bridge just waiting for someone to cry ANTAG on the radio in order to call it

I love it when engineers take the hardsuits and don't try to repair the station, too

Truth of the matter is that jobs are not engaging enough to warrant staying 1 hour. Plus in high pop after a huge amounts of death, calling it is the last safeguard so those dead can come back into the round.

Cloning was more bearable when speed cloning was a thing, sometimes you could have up to 8 people up a running in two minutes if you had enough cryoxadone and showers. Now it's such a wait it's better to just call it if 5+ people die because usually those people are the ones with access to help the station ( or more people die in the meantime meaning the ride never ends.)

D&B wrote:Truth of the matter is that jobs are not engaging enough to warrant staying 1 hour. Plus in high pop after a huge amounts of death, calling it is the last safeguard so those dead can come back into the round.

Yeah, I made a post in another thread about taking a more critical look at the game as a whole and the systems within, which could help

I don't think anyone feels that calling the shuttle after a fuckload of people died on highpop is the subject of the thread, though, that's pretty reasonable

"GUYS IT'S _insert antag type here_ CALL THE SHUTTLE SO I CAN POSSIBLY GET ANTAG NEXT ROUND"

Subject of the thread is rounds lasting less than 1 hour, which sometimes happens because a lot of people die.

D&B wrote:Subject of the thread is rounds lasting less than 1 hour, which sometimes happens because a lot of people die.

fair enough, I just interpreted it differently but I often play on sybil where there's rarely highpop games so I only can compare it to my experiences