Security Armour

[Steelpoint]

Reopening old wounds edition.



Currently security armour is on the low side, likely their armour is the weakest armour available in the game in comparison to other roles.

All security armour is identical defence wise, the HoS and Warden have the same values as a standard armour vest. Whereas even the Captains Carapace has superior values, whereas in the past it was the HoS who had the best armour on station, now even the CE's armour is better than the HoS's Armour in some values.

Current Sec Armour: melee = 30, bullet = 30, laser = 30, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0, fire = 50, acid = 50 (Includes HoS and Warden armour)

Current Cap Armour: melee = 50, bullet = 40, laser = 50, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0, fire = 100, acid = 90

Current Op Armour: melee = 40, bullet = 50, laser = 30, energy = 15, bomb = 35, bio = 100, rad = 50, fire = 50, acid = 90 (for comparison)

What are your thoughts on the issue? Mine are clear in that I think, at least for the HoS/Warden, that current sec armour is on the very weak side.

[ShadowDimentio]

Change sec armor to work on thresholds along with percentages. If damage of a certain type falls under the threshold, you take zero damage. Otherwise, the damage is either reduced by the threshold amount or a percentage deduction (rounded up), whichever is higher.

Example: A sec guy is wearing spiffy new armor with 30(5) melee resistance. A greyshirt pulls out a crowbar and attacks him for 5 damage. Due to his armor, the blow is completely absorbed and does nothing. Noticing this, the greyshirt pulls out an extinguisher instead and attacks for 10 damage. The guard's armor then because a reduction of 5 is larger than 3 reduces the damage taken to 5. The guard tazes and arrests the greyshirt when suddenly their buddy whips out an esword and strikes for 20 damage. The armor absorbs 6 damage, as it's higher than 5, meaning the guard takes 14 damage total.

[XDTM]

Looks fine to me. Captain, as the highest rank member (and a pretty sought-after target) has good reason to have better armor, while it's not exactly a surprise that antags have better gear. They are also ~5 against a whole station.
That said, the HoS should probably have better armor than standard sec.

[Jacough]

I don't know about standard sec armor but yeah, the HoS and warden's armor seem like they should be significantly better than standard armor. The HoS is a head and high value target after all and the Warden is charged with guarding the armory and handling extremely dangerous criminals so it'd make sense for him to get armor superior to standard sec armor.

[ShadowDimentio]

Buff the HoS armor a little so it's between regular sec armor and captain armor.

The warden doesn't need better armor because they're never supposed to be in combat outside of defending the armory, a job that should never get them hurt if they're doing it properly.

[Steelpoint]

I should note I likely won't propose any changes to the code base.

I do think the Warden and HoS should have better armour than the rank and file.

[Wyzack]

inb4 steelpoint's detractors storm in and attempt to HE BUFF HE OWN DEPARTMENT WAAAAAAAAHHHHHH the thread to death without debating the merits of sec armor

[Super Aggro Crag]

Do you guys remember riot armor i love that shit

[Steelpoint]

Riot Armour is also a dubious affair.

On the one hand it no longer suffers from any slow down, which is a strong advantage. But on the other hand it only provides 50 melee defence at the expense of all other defence.

[ShadowDimentio]

If the tiders have proper guns somebody has fucked up badly.

[CPTANT]

Riot Armour is also a dubious affair.

On the one hand it no longer suffers from any slow down, which is a strong advantage. But on the other hand it only provides 50 melee defence at the expense of all other defence.

Though at least riot armour covers the entire body. Normal sec armour is extremely mediocre AND only covers head and torso.

[Shaps-cloud]

Here we go again

[Gun Hog]

Captain's armor should be superior. Period. He is the BOSS. The LEADER. The man with the keys to the station and the means to blow it up. He is at more risk than any other role because of this, and deserves the best.

Head of Security should be a robust guardian, inferior to the Captain but strong. Should have to make antags think carefully about engaging him or the Captain.

[kevinz000]

Here we go again

Not really sec armor buff was denied just a month or two ago so nothing's going through until stuns are removed.

[Anonmare]

Personally, I'd sacrifice the Warden's bullet and laser protection in exchange for buffing their melee to be just under that of riot armour. My reasoning being that, as a warden, they'd only be handling prisoners who usually only have a bucket and a spade to try and kill you with.
Wardens who leave the brig outside of emergencies are failures and do not deserve laser or bullet armour

[Wyzack]

I leave the brig to get smokes debate me

[Anonmare]

N I C O T I N E
P A T C H E S

[XDTM]

But on the other hand it only provides 50 melee defence at the expense of all other defence.

When discussing numbers, don't forget that armor does not scale linearly; the effective HP of a human at different armor levels, is:
- 10% armor: 111 hp
- 20% armor: 125 hp
- 30% armor: 142 hp
- 40% armor: 166 hp
- 50% armor : 200 hp
- 60% armor : 250 hp
- 70% armor : 333 hp
- 80% armor : 500 hp
- 90% armor : 1000 hp

[PKPenguin321]

we've done this like a thousand times and it's been reverted a thousand times and every time it is so shit
please stop

[Steelpoint]

If it were up to me I would bring the HoS and maybe Warden to below the Caps armour.

At the very least I would suggest buffing melee prot

[Screemonster]

Change sec armor to work on thresholds along with percentages. If damage of a certain type falls under the threshold, you take zero damage. Otherwise, the damage is either reduced by the threshold amount or a percentage deduction (rounded up), whichever is higher.

Example: A sec guy is wearing spiffy new armor with 30(5) melee resistance. A greyshirt pulls out a crowbar and attacks him for 5 damage. Due to his armor, the blow is completely absorbed and does nothing. Noticing this, the greyshirt pulls out an extinguisher instead and attacks for 10 damage. The guard's armor then because a reduction of 5 is larger than 3 reduces the damage taken to 5. The guard tazes and arrests the greyshirt when suddenly their buddy whips out an esword and strikes for 20 damage. The armor absorbs 6 damage, as it's higher than 5, meaning the guard takes 14 damage total.

If you wanted to make it simpler you could just make armour reduction be "armour soaks armour% of the damage, or 10% of the armour value, whichever is higher" then you wouldn't have to make separate lists of damage thresholds for every armour item in the game. This'd effectively make your 30% suit into a 60% suit against the crowbar (blocking 3/5 damage), soak the same damage as it does now against the extinguisher (3/10), and work exactly as it does now against actual traitor weapons.
At 15%, it'd be 90% against the crowbar (4.5/5), 45% against the extinguisher, and equal versus force 15 weapons and above.
At 20%, it'd completely block the crowbar, be 60% armour against the extinguisher, and provide equal coverage from weapons of force >= 20.

tl;dr a buff versus greyshits without actually affecting balance versus antagonists. Pick the appropriate scaling factor to taste.

[Lumbermancer]

I don't care what you will do with it, just don't touch the sprites.

[Steelpoint]

Paprika was the one who wanted to go Mallsec

[kevinz000]

Go home, not gonna happen.
EDIT: and now that I think about it, Kor's right, this will just make stuns even more valuable and aren't we trying to move away from those?

[Steelpoint]

To be fair that PR was buffing all armour, my suggestion is only reserved for the Warden and HoS.

[kevinz000]

Yeah but the IDEA behind it technically applies, as this IS nerfing everything but a hard stun that will just be an instakill. I'd recommend trying this again after Remie does her stun removal thing (if she still is doing it), this might get better traction once not everyone has stuns to be tossing around like candy, as then armor will suddenly be extremely important as there'll be nothing to protect against except for damaging attacks.

[Steelpoint]

Fair point, and in reality unless you have 60+ defence then it won't matter if you get stunned.

The main problem with armour is that it lacks any real defence against stuns. Well technically you could buff its energy defence but that's another can of worms.

Sadly last I checked I don't recall anyone posting they were working on a stun overhaul recently.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Why are they removing stuns?

[Steelpoint]

From the thread (https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9712), the general idea is as below.

Remove Disablers and Disable settings from all weapons.
Any stun weapon, Taser or Baton, do not stack or reset stun time when applied after someone is already stunned.
Taking damage will cancel the effect of stuns. Likely it'll be a damage threshold so being accidently hit by a pen won't get you up.
Nerf non-security related method of restraing. Such as making cable cuffs break when damage is taken to the victim.
MAYBE buff some lethal ranged weapons to deal more damage???
Movement speeds remain the same

[Super Aggro Crag]

Seems like it'll make the tide even stronger. Guess we'll just have to shoot perps into crit before cuffing them and stabilizing them in isocube.

[ShadowDimentio]

Seems like it'll make the tide even stronger. Guess we'll just have to shoot perps into crit before cuffing them and stabilizing them in isocube.

This. People are just gonna get shot dead instead of tazed for minor crimes and suspicion, and my life as sec will be made apocalyptically awful because if you shoot the wrong guy you bet your ass you're going to get bwoinked from an assblasted player who just HAPPENED to find a sec headset and huds on the floor and dindu nuffin.

[Gun Hog]

Taser and disabler stun defense is defined by the "energy" protection level. Increasing that for certain armors and suits would give Sec/Heads/Antags a somewhat increased resistance to the stuns.

[AnonymousNow]

Buff the HoS armor a little so it's between regular sec armor and captain armor.

The warden doesn't need better armor because they're never supposed to be in combat outside of defending the armory, a job that should never get them hurt if they're doing it properly.

[John_Oxford]

Alright look

Its between buff weapons, buff armor, and remove stuns

You can't have one, you can't have two. Either all sides have to stop being overbearing cunts and saying "NO YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT PR WERE MOVING AWAY FROM STUNS" or we can just never touch the combat system and stagnate into inactivity.

Do all three and quit being bitches about it.

[kevinz000]

Alright look

Its between buff weapons, buff armor, and remove stuns

You can't have one, you can't have two. Either all sides have to stop being overbearing cunts and saying "NO YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT PR WERE MOVING AWAY FROM STUNS" or we can just never touch the combat system and stagnate into inactivity.

Do all three and quit being bitches about it.

If you think it's so easy why don't you do it?
DM is rediculously easy to pick up.

[Jazaen]

Alright look

Its between buff weapons, buff armor, and remove stuns

You can't have one, you can't have two. Either all sides have to stop being overbearing cunts and saying "NO YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT PR WERE MOVING AWAY FROM STUNS" or we can just never touch the combat system and stagnate into inactivity.

Do all three and quit being bitches about it.

If you think it's so easy why don't you do it?
DM is rediculously easy to pick up.

Especially since 2/3 of changes you listed involve nothing more than just switching some numbers around.

[John_Oxford]

because then i have nothing to bitch about on the fourms.

also armor*

[kevinz000]

because then i have nothing to bitch about on the fourms.

also armor*

If you want something changed do it yourself unless you're too lazy to code in which case good luck getting it done IMO
I'm being really negative here but you have to admit PRs with completed code change the game more than trying to get someone to make one with a forum thread .

[John_Oxford]

because then i have nothing to bitch about on the fourms.

also armor*

If you want something changed do it yourself unless you're too lazy to code in which case good luck getting it done IMO
I'm being really negative here but you have to admit PRs with completed code change the game more than trying to get someone to make one with a forum thread .

it's almost like that's not what i've been preaching the last two years.

good meme kev good meme

[kevinz000]

because then i have nothing to bitch about on the fourms.

also armor*

If you want something changed do it yourself unless you're too lazy to code in which case good luck getting it done IMO
I'm being really negative here but you have to admit PRs with completed code change the game more than trying to get someone to make one with a forum thread .

it's almost like that's not what i've been preaching the last two years.

good meme kev good meme

I should probably stop instead of derailing the thread, but my point is, you spend so much time writing this stuff up, why not learn to code and do it yourself?
You could probably have MUCH higher chances if you did the code yourself. If I scream about half my PRs on forums instead of actually making them myself it will _NEVER HAPPEN_.

[Gun Hog]

Player: RAH RAH RAH CHANGE THIS ITS BEEN 2 YEARS AND NOTHING HAPPENED
Coders: Learn to code and do it yourself!
*Player spends 6 hours in #coderbus getting Git running, downloading the game code, making 60 mistakes and violating standards he never knew existed
Player: Phew! That was hard work! Well, its finally done! Time to PR it!
Travis: ALL CHECKS FAILED.
*Player spends another 2 hours in #coderbus trying to get help compiling and testing code
Player: IT COMPILES!! Time to update my PR!
Maintainers: Your code sucks and it violates standards. Do it over and NO COPYPASTE.
*Player spends yet another 2 hours getting things up to standard, updates PR again.
Maintainers: I don't like this. *PR CLOSED*.

[Remie Richards]

Player: RAH RAH RAH CHANGE THIS ITS BEEN 2 YEARS AND NOTHING HAPPENED
Coders: Learn to code and do it yourself!
*Player spends 6 hours in #coderbus getting Git running, downloading the game code, making 60 mistakes and violating standards he never knew existed
Player: Phew! That was hard work! Well, its finally done! Time to PR it!
Travis: ALL CHECKS FAILED.
*Player spends another 2 hours in #coderbus trying to get help compiling and testing code
Player: IT COMPILES!! Time to update my PR!
Maintainers: Your code sucks and it violates standards. Do it over and NO COPYPASTE.
*Player spends yet another 2 hours getting things up to standard, updates PR again.
Maintainers: I don't like this. *PR CLOSED*.

Your point? Almost ALL of us started this way or similar, you don't start off perfect.
And as for your example, that PR may be closed but the person now knows the basics of git, has a local repository of the code, has learned from atleast a few of their 60 mistakes, now knows the codebase's standards/contrib guides.
Robustin has coded before, ShadowDimentio has, Mehki does it all the time!

[Slignerd]

Am I the only one here who thinks security armors are perfectly fine as they are (HoS hardsuit is already stronger than regular security hardsuit), but is also surprised to see Captain armor offer no rad resistance?

[Steelpoint]

The HoS Hardsuit only offers 15 extra melee and 10 extra bullet (30 to 35 and 15 to 25 respectivly) over the standard Security Hardsuit.

Whereas the Captains Hardsuit offers 40 melee, 50 bullet and 50 laser def. Which is almost in line with his carapace.

If I had my way I would suggest buffing the HoS's uniform to 40 melee, 50 bullet and 50 laser. While buffing the Warden's melee to around 40 but leaving the rest as is.

[Slignerd]

Wait, so hardsuit has less armor than regular security armor? Why's that?

Buffing HoS to that degree seems ludicrous though. 30 melee, 30 bullet and 30 laser is definitely enough. You could try turning some stats up to 35 or 40, but you really shouldn't try to one-up the Captain.

[Steelpoint]

The sec hardsuit has...
melee = 30, bullet = 15, laser = 30

Meaning its identical sans having 15 less bullet defence.

---

Going from a historical perspective, I looked around for the pre-nerf HoS/Warden armour values before the big nerf of 2015,and those values are...

HoS - melee = 65, bullet = 30, laser = 50

Ward - melee = 50, bullet = 15, laser = 50 (identical to standard armour)

Also amusingly I've noticed that the proposed armour values made have all but virtually remained untouched since this was merged mid-2015. I think stock armour got a 5 def increase at some point.

[CPTANT]

I still always get this feeling the armour values are pointless anyway, since the main killer in the game is stuns.

[kevinz000]

Gun hog the entire reason I bothered to learn the language is I want to make the effort for stuff I wanted to see instead of asking others to do it, which has a very much lower chance of your idea getting in unless it's revolutionary. I'd encourage people to learn the language so there's more coders (provided they make good code and not meme PRS cough tacolizard and jughu) and we can get more help with the game.

[PKPenguin321]

i learned it because i wanted to make radical mods but quickly realized you cant mod but instead you can make it part of the real game woah

[Steelpoint]

I thought off handedly to consider putting a single SWAT Armour and SWAT Helmet in the HoS's Office.

You then get to choose between great defence but your slow as crap, or light/moderate defence but full speed.

Edit: Disregard, I double checked and the SWAT armour stats are rubbish.