Detectives as antags

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:26 am #161356

Maybe I just missed the discussion on it, but this change was a total surprise to me. I haven't had a chance to play a round with a traitor detective yet, but I imagine this is going to be polarizing. How does it work in practice?

Incomptinence · Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:40 am

Eh give it a shot. Perfectly trustable buddies are against the essence of the game anyway and they still can't be a swath of group antags, you know like sec used to be but now that actually matters because rounds are no longer 60-80% tator so they are less likely to be rogue still.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:47 am #161361

What about balance-wise? Is it broken? Is security less trustful of detectives now? Does the HoS just take the forensic scanner?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:13 am #161368

None of those things. None of the munchkin gotta-kill-em-all players have gone detective yet so it hasn't messed with people.

Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:29 am

please note that the detective can ONLY be a traitor or double agent, NOT a revhead/cultist/gangboss/shadowling etc.

i think it will be fine

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:32 am #161374

PKPenguin321 wrote:please note that the detective can ONLY be a traitor or double agent, NOT a revhead/cultist/gangboss/shadowling etc.

i think it will be fine

That's a strange and counter-intuitive exception. Aside from revhead, any job capable of being an antag can be any antag.

Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:37 am

Luke Cox wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:please note that the detective can ONLY be a traitor or double agent, NOT a revhead/cultist/gangboss/shadowling etc.

i think it will be fine
That's a strange and counter-intuitive exception. Aside from revhead, any job capable of being an antag can be any antag.

well boo hoo

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:38 am #161376

Having it so a loyalty implanted position can still be traitor is weird and breaks the rule of thumb that roundstart loyalty implanted crew are trustworthy, but I guess we'll see how it goes

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:50 am #161379

If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:08 am #161384

Shaps wrote:Having it so a loyalty implanted position can still be traitor is weird and breaks the rule of thumb that roundstart loyalty implanted crew are trustworthy, but I guess we'll see how it goes

Any traitor can get implanted.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:27 am #161388

Scott wrote:
Shaps wrote:Having it so a loyalty implanted position can still be traitor is weird and breaks the rule of thumb that roundstart loyalty implanted crew are trustworthy, but I guess we'll see how it goes
Any traitor can get implanted.

Yeah but up until this all of the roles that can't roll antag have been the ones with implants, so it's a bit weird now

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:44 am #161390

Steelpoint wrote:If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.

I'm tentatively supporting this. The more authority figures that can be antags, the more paranoia there is. The loyalty implant thing is most likely an oversight and should be corrected asap

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:46 am #161391

It's not. Rev detective would be disgusting. Though he does have sunglasses...

ShadowDimentio · Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:11 am

Space desperado, I approve.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:53 am #161403

Luke Cox wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.
I'm tentatively supporting this. The more authority figures that can be antags, the more paranoia there is. The loyalty implant thing is most likely an oversight and should be corrected asap

The detective keeps the loyalty implant because he would be implanted every round anyways.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:20 am #161411

Scott wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.
I'm tentatively supporting this. The more authority figures that can be antags, the more paranoia there is. The loyalty implant thing is most likely an oversight and should be corrected asap
The detective keeps the loyalty implant because he would be implanted every round anyways.

Good, force security to waste an implant if they want the ease of mind

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:26 am #161413

Luke Cox wrote:
Scott wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.
I'm tentatively supporting this. The more authority figures that can be antags, the more paranoia there is. The loyalty implant thing is most likely an oversight and should be corrected asap
The detective keeps the loyalty implant because he would be implanted every round anyways.
Good, force security to waste an implant if they want the ease of mind

Oooor just let the detective keep something that doesn't fucking matter to the antag roles he can have, anyway.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:48 am #161420

It matters as far as gang/rev/cult goes, it matters a great deal. If detectives are eligible for traitor, there's no reason they shouldn't be eligible for those either.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:33 am #161432

On servers that allow a tag sec (goon for example) the HoS is the only one to be immune to being a antag, though he's significantly more heavily armed and armoured than anyone else on the station.

Furthermore sec are still disallowed from being round start conversion antags like Rev or Cult, for clear balance reasons that I don't need to explain.

Incomptinence · Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:08 pm

Luke Cox wrote:It matters as far as gang/rev/cult goes, it matters a great deal. If detectives are eligible for traitor, there's no reason they shouldn't be eligible for those either.

That's stupid it used to work this way and it made total sense.

That's like saying officers should turn into malf AIs in the middle of the gear room it is gibberish we have better systems than that.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:15 pm #161453

Anyone who wants sec to be eligible for gang, cult or rev may as well come out and admit they want to remove security from the game.

Those three game modes rely on there being a security presence on station to be the primary force to challenge the antagonist group. If that same antagonist group can SPAWN ROUNDSTART as members of security then you may as well call the round and save everyone half an hour of security converting the entire station to revs/a gang/cult, backed up with a air of legitimacy of being in a position of ""trusted"" authority and weapons that outmatch anyone else.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:41 pm #161642

Security should never be roundstart antagonists for obvious reasons, but I'm 100% on board for detectives getting the lawyer treatment: affiliated with and working under security, but without the authority that security has.

ShadowDimentio · Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:54 pm

"Authority" is literally just having good stun weapons, and the detective has the best stun weapons, so they must have the most "authority".

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:42 am #161666

ShadowDimentio wrote:"Authority" is literally just having good stun weapons, and the detective has the best stun weapons, so they must have the most "authority".

Traitors have infinite ammo stun weapons in the form of ebows, and I don't think they carry much authority with the staff. By "authority," I mean that they're allowed to arrest people who are breaking the law and imprison them without repercussions from centcom.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:00 am #161682

It ignores that config option entirely. I tried to point this out, and was dismissed.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:40 am #161709

That config has nothing to do with loyalty implants.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:08 am #161715

Zilenan91 wrote:None of those things. None of the munchkin gotta-kill-em-all players have gone detective yet so it hasn't messed with people.

i rolled traitor detective
and bought martial arts
and the hos trusted me so much when i was beating him with my police baton
oke oke this is enough!
>i keep bashing
>DETECTIVE ROGUE BRIG

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:21 am #161719

Its going to take a while for security players to get used to a antag detective being a possibility.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:48 am #161739

Steelpoint wrote:Its going to take a while for security players to get used to a antag detective being a possibility.

why not make whole security able to roll antags again
i mean like you cant say its OP because hop can just rush in armoury and go to a murderboner without trouble

so security wont be like should be trust the detective... orrr?
and that feel gets spreaded trough whole sec team

Incomptinence · Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:50 am

Steelpoint wrote:Its going to take a while for security players to get used to a antag detective being a possibility.

Or maybe most people treat roles who could be antags decently anyway?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:53 am #161741

What does that mean?

There's a critical difference between anyone outside of security who can be a antag versus someone who is a member of security and is a round start antagonist.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:04 pm #161743

Steelpoint wrote:What does that mean?

There's a critical difference between anyone outside of security who can be a antag versus someone who is a member of security and is a round start antagonist.

would make more sense of having a corrupt security officer
then a detective who handles all evidence and who is mostly trusted with evidence

Incomptinence · Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:35 pm

Steelpoint wrote:What does that mean?

There's a critical difference between anyone outside of security who can be a antag versus someone who is a member of security and is a round start antagonist.

Just proximity to you as a regular security player. People in other departments get back stabbed all the time.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:41 pm #161746

Ezel wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:What does that mean?

There's a critical difference between anyone outside of security who can be a antag versus someone who is a member of security and is a round start antagonist.
would make more sense of having a corrupt security officer
then a detective who handles all evidence and who is mostly trusted with evidence

There's no evidence to indicate that the Detective is not subjugated to the same training and/or defence against being corrupted than any other Security Officer. Whereas there is evidence he is protected against such, hell this change bruteforces its way through by saying that even though the Detective is loyally implanted that he is still capable of being a Traitor or similar.

No matter which way this change goes, but if the Detective is going to keep his antag status then he needs to lose his loyalty implant.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:49 pm #161750

Steelpoint wrote:
Ezel wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:What does that mean?

There's a critical difference between anyone outside of security who can be a antag versus someone who is a member of security and is a round start antagonist.
would make more sense of having a corrupt security officer
then a detective who handles all evidence and who is mostly trusted with evidence
There's no evidence to indicate that the Detective is not subjugated to the same training and/or defence against being corrupted than any other Security Officer. Whereas there is evidence he is protected against such, hell this change bruteforces its way through by saying that even though the Detective is loyally implanted that he is still capable of being a Traitor or similar.

No matter which way this change goes, but if the Detective is going to keep his antag status then he needs to lose his loyalty implant.

in that case hop needs to lose his antag status

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:56 pm #161755

HoP does not have a loyalty implant.

He's only immune to Cult rounds specially due to balance concerns. Everything else is a head of staff antag immunity for rev.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:57 pm #161756

Steelpoint wrote:HoP does not have a loyalty implant.

He's only immune to Cult rounds specially due to balance concerns. Everything else is a head of staff antag immunity for rev.

Hop is litteraly traitor captain in a nutshell
and we did remove traitor captain for balance issues didnt we

onleavedontatme · Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:17 pm

He can't lose his loyalty implant, unless you want revhead detectives/gang detectives. It'd be miserable.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:18 pm #161760

Then he shouldn't have antag status!

Either all of Security (barring HoS) can be a traitor or none of them can.

Otherwise this is a inane inconsistency for the sake of someone wanting to play out their fantasies of being a rogue detective.

Ezel · Post by **Ezel** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:19 pm #161761

Steelpoint wrote:Then he shouldn't have antag status!

Either all of Security (barring HoS) can be a traitor or none of them can.

Otherwise this is a inane inconsistency for the sake of someone wanting to play out their fantasies of being a rogue detective.

You really think centcom will assign station heads with a loyality implant so they are trustworthy and handling their department

Incomptinence · Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:22 pm

Everyone should lose antag status because nanotrasen is a wonderful caring company that loves to maintain the workplace health and safety of their people and ensure the local area is free of eldritch or alien threats.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:30 pm #161763

Luke Cox wrote:
Scott wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.
I'm tentatively supporting this. The more authority figures that can be antags, the more paranoia there is. The loyalty implant thing is most likely an oversight and should be corrected asap
The detective keeps the loyalty implant because he would be implanted every round anyways.
Good, force security to waste an implant if they want the ease of mind

I've said before this is a stupid practice and still maintain that stance.

metacide · Post by **metacide** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:17 pm #161769

Removing antagsec was a great move that improved the game a lot, this is just a step back towards that and will probably be a bit shit.

Not sure what exactly the reason for merging it was, but I imagine it'll be reverted sooner or later.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:36 pm #161770

If only people did not love to toe the line and be shit, we could just give dets the antag objective 1: Be a loose cannon who doesn't play by the book

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:10 pm #161774

What book?

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:11 pm #161776

The only "book" left is server rules, so ???

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:36 pm #161792

Calm down people it is just a detective trope. I just want a HoS to make me turn in my gun and badge for once

TheNightingale · Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:06 pm

Wyzack wrote:If only people did not love to toe the line and be shit, we could just give dets the antag objective 1: Be a loose cannon who doesn't play by the book

I suggested something like that in the PR thread, but since Space Law was removed, it doesn't really work as well now.

""You are a loose cannon. You'll do whatever it takes to uncover the truth - but be careful not to become that which you hunt. You still obey the law, and cold-blooded murder isn't in your nature, but like all good Detectives, you play fast and loose with the rules; in the pursuit of justice, let nothing get in your way."

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:51 pm #161804

Kor wrote:He can't lose his loyalty implant, unless you want revhead detectives/gang detectives. It'd be miserable.

Not having an implant would not make the detective eligible for revhead or gang leader, only vulnerable to conversion. The only antag roles the detective can be is traitor (and double agent because it is a child of traitor).

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:18 pm #161807

The detective is the origami killer