ERP ban discussion, no lock edition.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue May 20, 2014 10:30 pm #7513

Bottom post of the previous page:

Why does every thread talking directly about ERP get locked in some form or another? This isn't erro's forum, there's no moderator bias, so just talk about it civilly. Of course, if shit gets out of hand, the thread will need to be locked, but this is a direct discussion about ERP and banning it and stuff so that we can clear this issue up and it can't be floating above our heads forever. You might need to restate your opinion on it that you have a million times but for the sake of an actual discussion coming out of this without a lock by me at least I'd appreciate it.

Anyway, to put it in perspective for new people coming to this thread, the basic idea is that a chunk of players want ERP banned for a couple of reasons. One of the reasons is that the server is 18+ but that rule is very, VERY loosely enforced because no admin really wants to be the guy who hands out bans for being 17 on an 18+ server, which is understandable. The proposed solution is to just make ERP bannable outright. The second reason is that it bothers them/detracts from the game/offends them which is an argument with considerably less basis in my opinion.

The people who want ERP to stay generally say 'grow up'. Personally, I think SoS adapting this policy of 18+ for liability reasons was a good idea, but I also think it made a lot of people consider the legal issues WAYYYY too much. I really doubt SoS is going to be arrested for running a game server that a VERY small minority of players use to ERP on, even if one or both of them is a minor, because a) that won't hold up in court b) no lawyer will ever take that shit seriously because this isn't facebook sexual predators we're talking about.

As I've said in the past, I generally think the policy should be that we don't allow ERP, but instead tolerate it, to a point. What constitutes 'taking it too far' past that point should be pretty clear

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:45 pm #18564

In all seriousness, if someone wants to ERP so badly, what's stopping them from doing it over any other way of communicating?

I mean, there is a ton of ways to send your messages to someone, and all of them except one are not this one.

Why do they really need to do it in the way that can and usually does annoy some people when they can easily do it in a way that doesn't.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:03 am #18673

Alzam wrote:Powergaming is bad in general

Alzam wrote:blaming people for not contributing to victory

I get the point, but it's funny.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:19 am #18698

Alzam wrote:Stuff

And how is that different from people not ERPing, but still completely incompetent and wasting resources and such during situations where the entire crew needs to be on deck, like Nuke Ops, Blob, Malf, etc. ?

Mat13295 · Post by **Mat13295** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:03 am #18717

I already have an inkling who these two were and all i can really say is ding dong bannu

Stealing important resources to erp during an emergency should be treated the same as a CE fucking off into spess round start.

Alzam · Post by **Alzam** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:19 pm #18753

Isane wrote:
Alzam wrote:Stuff
And how is that different from people not ERPing, but still completely incompetent and wasting resources and such during situations where the entire crew needs to be on deck, like Nuke Ops, Blob, Malf, etc. ?

Outside Blob (cuz blob is not fun to fight) I rarely see people actively refuse to participate in some way in those round types. Obviously this is anecdotal evidence and I understand your point, and it is a valid one. The fact that they were erping is honestly only relevant because I feel if you're going to be a serial ERPer, and use the game -only- as a vehicle to erp with someone, you should not stealing important things like insuls during a rogue ai round.

Mandurrrh · Post by **Mandurrrh** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:14 pm #18782

Alzam wrote:
Isane wrote:
Alzam wrote:Stuff
And how is that different from people not ERPing, but still completely incompetent and wasting resources and such during situations where the entire crew needs to be on deck, like Nuke Ops, Blob, Malf, etc. ?

Outside Blob (cuz blob is not fun to fight) I rarely see people actively refuse to participate in some way in those round types. Obviously this is anecdotal evidence and I understand your point, and it is a valid one. The fact that they were erping is honestly only relevant because I feel if you're going to be a serial ERPer, and use the game -only- as a vehicle to erp with someone, you should not stealing important things like insuls during a rogue ai round.

One of the biggest problems with the serial erpers outside of events is regular antag objectives. I was in a round the other day come end of round report there was only one antag and their target was Alice Jackson. I even said in OOC that sucks for them. Those two always run off to maintenance and hole up together not participating in the round, hard to find, and always with someone else. It ruins that antags chances to complete their objective and their round. I don't care if people ERP but if you are ERPing more than playing the game just go use some form of messaging service and be fair to other players. Space Station is Video game to play not a platform designed for you to come sex chat.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:54 pm #18807

>blaming people for not allowing traitors to kill them easily

Come on

Mandurrrh · Post by **Mandurrrh** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:00 pm #18816

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:>blaming people for not allowing traitors to kill them easily

Come on

Not easily. They aren't in the game at all.

Duncdar · Post by **Duncdar** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:00 pm #18826

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:49 pm #18959

Mandurrrh wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:>blaming people for not allowing traitors to kill them easily

Come on

Not easily. They aren't in the game at all.

Thermals.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:10 pm #18969

I'm sure we've all, in some form or another, partaken in a sexually-charged exchange of text. Honestly don't care how you want to wank/schlick it.

The simple facts here are that it contributes nothing to the round, causes problems for the crew and shoves your lesbian fantasies in the faces of people who we can assume came here to watch SS13 rather than badly written sex. Even at its best you've entertained a tiny minority and still committed every single sin of the AFK-powergamey assistant. We're humans, we could get randy about a cactus if it suits us. That doesn't mean your sexual release deserves a protected spot in a game about paranoia, murder and roleplay at the cost of fifty-some other players. You and your partner(s) can use IM to write; there are also obviously a thousand sites on the internet specifically designed to provide you an excellent place for such encounters.

The only reasons for protecting this "form of roleplay" are utterly selfish and there's absolutely no logical argument for allowing it here. Ban ERP 2014.

420goslingboy69 · Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:39 pm

Subtle wrote:I'm sure we've all, in some form or another, partaken in a sexually-charged exchange of text. Honestly don't care how you want to wank/schlick it.

The simple facts here are that it contributes nothing to the round, causes problems for the crew and shoves your lesbian fantasies in the faces of people who we can assume came here to watch SS13 rather than badly written sex. Even at its best you've entertained a tiny minority and still committed every single sin of the AFK-powergamey assistant. We're humans, we could get randy about a cactus if it suits us. That doesn't mean your sexual release deserves a protected spot in a game about paranoia, murder and roleplay at the cost of fifty-some other players. You and your partner(s) can use IM to write; there are also obviously a thousand sites on the internet specifically designed to provide you an excellent place for such encounters.

The only reasons for protecting this "form of roleplay" are utterly selfish and there's absolutely no logical argument for allowing it here. Ban ERP 2014.

I'm sure we've all, in some form or another, partaken in a sexually-charged exchange of text. Honestly don't care how you want to wank/schlick it.
The simple facts here are that it hurts you in no particular way to view the exchange of sexually charged sensory information and, if done properly (like all things), is completely harmless to the crew and has even led to great, great fun. At it's worst, you've pissed off(most likely) some short-tempered asshole who takes offense and gets enraged that people are having fun in a way they don't like. Now, this does mean that you have the right to do whatever the fuck you want between consenting adults, because there is always some way to stop the horrid erp from showing on your screen, whether it's by turning off ghost ears/ghost emotes or not breaking in repeatedly to their locked dorm. Some people feel it develops characters (and humans and sexual encounters go hand in hand) so having these in the game, and they are inherently harmless, remove nothing from the game. Anyone trying to remove erp is removing fun and trying to force their likes and dislikes on others. Banning ERP is horrible and just one more step away from /tg/ and one more step towards Bay.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:39 pm #18980

Subtle wrote:I'm sure we've all, in some form or another, partaken in a sexually-charged exchange of text. Honestly don't care how you want to wank/schlick it.

The simple facts here are that it contributes nothing to the round, causes problems for the crew and shoves your lesbian fantasies in the faces of people who we can assume came here to watch SS13 rather than badly written sex. Even at its best you've entertained a tiny minority and still committed every single sin of the AFK-powergamey assistant. We're humans, we could get randy about a cactus if it suits us. That doesn't mean your sexual release deserves a protected spot in a game about paranoia, murder and roleplay at the cost of fifty-some other players. You and your partner(s) can use IM to write; there are also obviously a thousand sites on the internet specifically designed to provide you an excellent place for such encounters.

The only reasons for protecting this "form of roleplay" are utterly selfish and there's absolutely no logical argument for allowing it here. Ban ERP 2014.

The problem with this argument is that it can apply to literally anything. There are a thousand sites on the Internet to pretend you are getting drunk in a bar. You can use IM to roleplay; you can use Second Life if you want the bar setting. Getting drunk in the bar contributes nothing to the round, creates easy targets for antagonists, and shoves meaningless chat in the faces of people we can assume came here to play a game about spacemen instead of listening to ridiculous tavern banter. Ban the Maltese Falcon 2014.

Basically, whenever one is considering banning something that isn't outright griefing, the burden of proof is not "why should this be allowed here?" but "why should this be disallowed"? And the only arguments anyone has are "ewww, sex" and "I do not personally participate this way, therefore no one should."

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:03 pm #18984

Subtle wrote:The only reasons for protecting this "form of roleplay" are utterly selfish and there's absolutely no logical argument for allowing it here. Ban ERP 2014.

@napkin

420goslingboy69 · Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:05 pm

miggles wrote:
Subtle wrote:The only reasons for banning this "form of roleplay" are utterly selfish and there's absolutely no logical argument for allowing it here. Keep ERP 2014.
@napkin

Muh feelings are not a good reason to remove something that is used to forward roleplay and cause fun.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:29 pm #18991

I'll bite, let me do my best to address each individual concern.

bandit wrote:Basically, whenever one is considering banning something that isn't outright griefing, the burden of proof is not "why should this be allowed here?" but "why should this be disallowed"? And the only arguments anyone has are "ewww, sex" and "I do not personally participate this way, therefore no one should."

Plainly, I don't feel that text-sex is in the spirit of our game. There's no reason to use SS13 as a platform for it and ERP is actively detrimental to several more mainstream approaches. It's egocentric and exclusionary, things which I personally can't stand to see in any form. There is absolutely nothing stopping those of you who participate in ERP from finding a private place outside the game to do it. Vice versa, the players and ghosts who don't want to be involved shouldn't have to deafen, blind, or leave the game themselves to avoid your exhibitionism. It's common courtesy.

420goslingboy69 wrote: I'm sure we've all, in some form or another, partaken in a sexually-charged exchange of text. Honestly don't care how you want to wank/schlick it.
The simple facts here are that it hurts you in no particular way to view the exchange of sexually charged sensory information and, if done properly (like all things), is completely harmless to the crew and has even led to great, great fun. At it's worst, you've pissed off(most likely) some short-tempered asshole who takes offense and gets enraged that people are having fun in a way they don't like. Now, this does mean that you have the right to do whatever the fuck you want between consenting adults, because there is always some way to stop the horrid erp from showing on your screen, whether it's by turning off ghost ears/ghost emotes or not breaking in repeatedly to their locked dorm. Some people feel it develops characters (and humans and sexual encounters go hand in hand) so having these in the game, and they are inherently harmless, remove nothing from the game. Anyone trying to remove erp is removing fun and trying to force their likes and dislikes on others. Banning ERP is horrible and just one more step away from /tg/ and one more step towards Bay.

I approve of the parody but you've succeeded in nothing but proving my point. If you personally want to jack off to spessmen there are several better stations for it, and again, I refuse to turn off vital parts of being a ghost because six people at most want to play pretend cunnilingus with their waifus. Encouraging ERP is pandering to a tiny group of people who erroneously think they're amusing with their all-too-mature approach to sex. It has no place here. Your "character development" is no less real for being in IM than on station. The only difference is those of us who don't want to see it don't have to. So who's forcing what on who?

And for the record? We could stand to move away from the stupid parts of /tg/ and accept the good bits of Bay. This is one such situation.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:59 pm #18993

How do you people use internet if what other people say to each other offends you

I'm sorry, but why can't you just ignore it? I seriously don't get why is it such a big deal. How often do you see it, anyway? Can somebody provide any meaningful evidence of it being very annoying and interfering with your experience?

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:23 pm #18998

bandit wrote:Basically, whenever one is considering banning something that isn't outright griefing, the burden of proof is not "why should this be allowed here?" but "why should this be disallowed"?

It is a question of "what are the advantages of allowing it?", "what are the disadvantages of allowing it?", and "do advantages outweigh disadvantages?".

What are the advantages of allowing it, for the server?

420goslingboy69 · Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:30 pm

I'm just saying, banning erp is a huge step in the wrong direction and removes something from the the server that's been in there since the start. I don't erp (at least not anymore) but I find it entertaining to watch and critique (as it fuels my ego) and removing it is a crime. A lot of inside jokes in the game are built around crass, crude, tasteless jokes that largely revolve around erp. I remember a round where Hulk Hogan was banging some chick in Medbay when Randy Savage came in, tabled him and the Singularity came, eventually killing Randy while Hulk got away. Removing ERP just removes fun really. People will get emotionally locked into the game, which they express via their character as a sense of disillusioning themselves, allowing them to do things they otherwise would not be able to. They do actually forward these plots they make in their head and they do get enjoyment from it while emotionally bonding with these made-up characters. It's wish fulfillment and why should I be able to say that they aren't allowed to do something that is harmless and they get enjoyment from? That's the ulterior reason, I guess. I also don't like deviating from old /tg/.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:36 pm #19000

420goslingboy69 wrote:Appeal to tradition

420goslingboy69 · Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:41 pm

Kelenius wrote:
420goslingboy69 wrote:Appeal to tradition

oh boy thats a smooth way to remove a whole argument

Spoiler:

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:57 pm #19005

Kelenius wrote:It is a question of "what are the advantages of allowing it?", "what are the disadvantages of allowing it?", and "do advantages outweigh disadvantages?".

What are the advantages of allowing it, for the server?

The thread is called "ban ERP", not "allow ERP". To take an action you need a reason. Inaction doesn't require a reason. We don't need a reason to NOT ban ERP, we need a reason TO ban it.

So. What are the advantages of banning ERP? Keep in mind that "it offends people" doesn't work, because there are also people who enjoy it and people who don't give a damn. So you'd really need a majority vote either way.

If most of the server is offended by it, sure, it's a valid reason to ban it. Somehow I think that most people have never seen any ERP, let alone are offended by it. Which also actually reduces the validity of polls, because people may say that "Oh, we have ERP? Well yeah, I'm totally offended by it, even though I've never seen it".

Frankly, how many of you are actually irritated by it in game, on a regular basis, not just by sole existence?

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:03 pm #19006

Kelenius wrote:It is a question of "what are the advantages of allowing it?", "what are the disadvantages of allowing it?", and "do advantages outweigh disadvantages?".

No, it's not. You can't start from "everything is banned except the OK things that we allow," because that's insane and unrealistic. Where you start is "everything is allowable except these harmful things we disallow." So it is a question of "what are the advantages of banning it," "what are the disadvantages of banning it," and "do advantages outweigh disadvantages." Personally, I think the disadvantage of setting a precedent for disallowing harmless behavior outweigh pretty much any advantage imaginable. So does the disadvantage of prioritizing certain preferences of the playerbase over others, on no grounds other than "I personally do not like this."

Subtle wrote:Plainly, I don't feel that text-sex is in the spirit of our game.

That's your personal opinion, though. "The spirit of our game" is subjective and meaningless. A lot of people don't feel like Sibyl's playstyle is in the spirit of the game. A lot of other people don't feel like Artyom's playstyle is in the spirit of the game. They're just different interpretations of the spirit of the game, and neither of them harms anyone. Just like ERP.

Maybe an example would help: You could make an argument that certain forms of swearing should not be allowed, because it offends some people who don't want to see swearing in a game about 2D spessmen, and it's not in the spirit of the game. Yogstation does this. Most people, I think, feel like Yog's policy is a bit extreme. So what's the difference? There is none.

Subtle wrote:Your "character development" is no less real for being in IM than on station. The only difference is those of us who don't want to see it don't have to.

And that it would probably get the players involved banned for metacommunication.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:45 pm #19012

I don't think anyone would get banned, because they're not in-game wasting two or more slots to AFK in the dorms.

Despite apparent popular belief I do feel that we need logical reasons to justify ERP. There are zero benefits for anyone not involved. It's annoying, disruptive, and literally only exists in-game to spam ghosts. I'm dead serious, please provide any reason why your libido mandates having two sprites lay motionlessly on top of one another in order for writing to get you off. With that in mind, ERP loses nothing for being removed from the game.

So let's review.

Spoiler:

bandit wrote:Maybe an example would help: You could make an argument that certain forms of swearing should not be allowed, because it offends some people who don't want to see swearing in a game about 2D spessmen, and it's not in the spirit of the game. Yogstation does this. Most people, I think, feel like Yog's policy is a bit extreme. So what's the difference? There is none.

I'd like to address this point specifically. There's a vast difference between hearing 'fuck' or 'fag' in OOC and being forced to endure paragraphs of smut because the only alternative is to leave the server. It alienates new and less-sex-inclined players, and I promise you a thousand times more people swear than ERP. You clearly don't either, so what do any of us gain from its continued allowance? About the only thing I can see here is people who don't ERP supporting it for the sake of defending a "right." Very noble, but also very silly.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:55 pm #19014

Subtle, how often do you encounter "paragraphs of smut"?

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:59 pm #19016

Saying "pro-ERP" is the equivalent of calling pro-choice people "pro-abortion." It's really more "anti-banning things for no reason except that a few people are offended on occasions even they admit are rare."

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:00 pm #19018

As an admin? Every couple days; usually for between 2~3 rounds per individual couple. (Some will literally be at it all night)
That's not fair to the average perspective though since I ghost far more.

I call it Pro-ERP because that's what it is. If you're defending people's right to ERP just because they have the right it casts some doubt on the validity of it.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:01 pm #19019

Subtle wrote: ERP'ers are wasting slots exactly like an AFK player, this is not up for debate.

Wait, we have a maximum number of slots on the servers? Really?

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:08 pm #19020

We have a maximum amount of jobs, people who antag-roll and AFK are punished.
You guys can pick me apart all day but I still haven't heard a selfless reason for why we should keep it. A real benefit for the server at large.

(Going to quell my argumentative nature unless further points are directed toward me personally, I'm kinda smothering the discussion.)

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:16 pm #19023

Subtle wrote:I call it Pro-ERP because that's what it is. If you're defending people's right to ERP just because they have the right it casts some doubt on the validity of it.

What you're doing is banning somebody because you do not like how they spend their time, even though they do not directly harm anyone else.

The fact that they MIGHT be offensive to somebody LOOKING at them at THEIR OWN WILL, because nobody forces you to watch ERP, no sir, ghost ears/eyes exist solely for a fucking reason to let you not see something you don't want to. It's why that functionality is there in the first place.

I want to argue that for me, personally, THIS is against what /tg/ is. I like it when I can do whatever the fuck I want as long as I don't affect others. I can fuck off into space, I can /me jerk off, I can suicide on the spot, nobody fucking cares. Oh my gosh, do I take a slot? How unfortunate, I guess that ID computer functionality that allows you to open slots is there for no fucking reason. Oh wow, do ghosts find my behavior offensive? Well, I guess we shouldn't have put ears/eyes in.

Every time when something like this comes up - "Ban people who suicide as antags, they're taking the slot!" - "Ban ERP, they fuck off!" - "We must force antags to create chaos!" - and they all speak that this is all about some bullshit like paranoia or whatever or that this is what ss13 is meant to be. Well. For me it's about this freedom to do whatever the fuck I want until I start affecting others, or even past that as antag. Don't tell others what to do with their experience. Don't tell others how to play the game. Don't tell others what this game is meant to be. It's you OPINION, don't try to push it as if it was a fact.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:33 pm #19027

Again, ghosts shouldn't be forced to participate in ERP or leave the game/be effectively blind or deaf to avoid it.

I feel that most of you are missing the point here, this isn't some dramatic battle over the rights of an oppressed minority. The question is whether or not the benefits of allowing people to force others to read their smut (because there's no other quantifiable reason to write it in SS13) outweigh the negatives. If you move away all this Trail of Tears stuff that's what it boils down to. Do any of you ERP? No. Are these arguments becoming nebulous and dangerously off-point? Yes.

It may be my opinion but at least I've made an effort to justify it with logic. The benefits are, in fact, non-existent. It's your own private little WGW for ghosts.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:50 pm #19031

Maybe this warrants an in-game poll and an admin-only vote in the admin forum or something. I'd like to know if admins themselves really think this is a matter of 'grow up it's just sex xD' because I've seen that attitude towards it from admins and I'm sure you have as well subtle.

Do admins want to enforce this? Will they? Generally admins agree with rules/policy when it's their job to enforce them, I don't want to have this banned and then see admins ignoring ahelps or not banning people when they see it. Granted, there will be a lot of AHELP: ADMINS THIS PERSON KISSED THIS OTHER PERSON BAN WHEN but I doubt it won't be worth putting an end to this stupid shitstorm.

Also @Lo6a4evskiy you basically described /vg/ so maybe you'd be better off playing there. /tg/ isn't a 'do whatever you want' server by any means and chastising us for wanting our roleplay to be held to a higher standard than grade school smut isn't really something you should be doing. /tg/ is supposed to be the autistic semi-roleplay server in a sea of play to win trash but we've shifted away from that to the lament of many old respectable players and scaredy himself. I'm sorry, but I don't want to share a server with people who /me jacks off in space.

Edit: I like how you criticized people who made their own definitions of what the server should be, players much older to this server than you are, and then proceeded to make up your own claim of what /tg/ is. When you pay for the server you can decide, but last I heard scaredy wanted actual roleplay in his server.

Oh, and I forgot the 'until I do something disruptive' part of your argument. ERP is disruptive. All the people saying it's disruptive are proof of that. I want to know what's going on in the round when I'm observing, and erp emotes stick out like a sore thumb. You can't selectively mute people locally, so yes, people are fucking forced to watch ERP you fat nasty trash.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:34 am #19041

"I don't like thing, better ban it instead of just ignoring it."

Spoiler:

The energy everyone is putting into this whole thing is not at all appropriate for the actual subject at hand. Who cares?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:42 am #19043

"I don't care about a thing and you're dumb for caring about a thing :^)"

Being offended =/= not liking something. Just fuck off.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:00 am #19054

"I'm offended by thing, better ban it instead of ignoring it."

Right, so you're offended, but you neither like nor dislike ERP happening on the servers.

So, how much actual ERP do you witness per round or per day? Can you name the specific names of those you see ERPing regularly? What jobs are the ERPers you witness taking up while doing so? How often have you witnessed antags fucking off to ERP? How often have you witnessed heads of staff / important roles fucking off to ERP?

In over a year of playing, I have personally witnessed ERP probably a little less than a half dozen times, this includes observing and being alive. How about you?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:05 am #19056

I've played ss13 for over two years and that's enough to know that nobody's going to take roleplay seriously on servers where ERP isn't banned.

I'm not personally offended by ERP in itself but I'm disgusted by the notion people use ss13 as a chatroom to get off rather than engaging in the round. I dunno about you but I value good players over people just there to pad the population while they get off in their secret autismforts.

When have you observed any of these erpers be decent players that contributed fucking anything to the playerbase? Can you name some ERPers that you personally know are good players?

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:21 am #19058

I have not personally witnessed ERP in probably over half a year now. The one name I actually remember, Sonia Aronkoth or whatever, I have not seen in maybe a year, so I cannot really judge how much they have contributed to the playerbase. Just as much as any other random player I guess.

Apparently Kenzie Smith and Johnathan Rigel ERP together, but I have never seen it so I'm not even sure if it's true, and they contribute to the game just as much as any other random player from what I have seen, if not more.

Also, you didn't answer any of my questions...

Isane wrote: So, how much actual ERP do you witness per round or per day? Can you name the specific names of those you see ERPing regularly? What jobs are the ERPers you witness taking up while doing so? How often have you witnessed antags fucking off to ERP? How often have you witnessed heads of staff / important roles fucking off to ERP?

In over a year of playing, I have personally witnessed ERP probably a little less than a half dozen times, this includes observing and being alive. How about you?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:32 am #19068

In the past 6 months the only erpers, though there are few, exclusively play assistant, contribute literally nothing to the round, and waste their antag roles. Dawgas and fuzzle are the most prominent examples, and if you actually read any of this thread you wouldn't have to ask people to restate information that's already been said a couple hundred times.

Seriously, if you want to contribute to threads, don't burst in like 'lol u guys r so mad about nothing anime pic' and then pretend to be interested and asking questions that have already been fucking answered.

Discussing particular players leads to literally nothing though, and if you've been in these discussions before you'd know that. They turn into shit flinging dumb arguments so that's why we're trying to keep it about whether or not we'd be preventing future shittery by banning it now.

Also your personal experiences being a flakey server 2 player at best isn't exactly a personal experience I'm going to take into account. You don't play as much as a lot of other people, no shit you aren't going to notice it as much as the other people complaining about it as a thing that DOES happen and when it does, disrupts rounds and bothers people in deadchat who like to keep their ears open so they can observe the entire round without having /ME CARRESSES HER LESBIAN PARTNERS SOFT BREASTS like it's some integral part of the game. Not only does banning erp get rid of any possible questionable rape territory, but it pleases the majority and that's what's more important here than saving the integrity of like two or three people's garbage sex log RP.

Edit: I should also mention that your 'it doesn't happen often' argument also goes both ways. If not a lot of people do it, not a lot of people will even mind if it gets banned. So what's the real harm in banning it if it bothers people again? Keeping it around does more harm than banning it. Nobody's going to protest the lack of ERP rights on this server, the people that ERP -regularly- will simply find another server, and the people that erp as an extension of any actual roleplay or find it fun will just do it in private. Everyone's happy.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:10 am #19136

Subtle wrote:Do any of you ERP?

I don't participate in hours of /me-ing, but I do occasionally drop slutty remarks or that time when some guy invented a genius way to do it - by pulling resting character back and forth - that was fucking hilarious. I am sure that all of that would be bwoinked should ERP be banned, frankly, any sexuality would be. Oh, jeeze, we contributed nothing to the round and we had tons of fun doing it. Nobody fucking owes you a contribution to the round. I would like to do whatever I find fun, thank you very much. Seriously, I don't know about you, but the goal of playing the fucking video game to me is having fun. And now you want to shut down one of the ways to have fun for people because you, oh my, get offended by it. Why don't you remove observer mode instead - it only creates metagaming, serves for ghosts to bitch about how they died and lets people get offended.

Subtle wrote:It's your own private little WGW for ghosts.

It's good that you mention it. Last time I read porn over radio as librarian, I had more people protecting me than attacking me. Which shows that your opinion on the matter may not be the only one. WGW is just a gimmick, just like death of Ian. The number of people who care about it because of the sexuality is not that great. And porn is BASICALLY the same as ERP, only read over radio and not in some dark corner. So if people don't really care about that and actually try to SUPPORT it, I have to wonder, how is ERP any different?

In any case, we need more evidence to say either way, but it would be useful to know how many people actually care and lean into one or the other direction.

paprika wrote:Also @Lo6a4evskiy you basically described /vg/

Not in my experience. Thank you for concern, I'll somehow figure out on which server do I want to play a video game.

paprika wrote:many old respectable players

Do they perhaps have PhD in SS13?

paprika wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't want to share a server with people who /me jacks off in space.

First of all, this was an exaggeration. Secondly, you wouldn't know or give a shit, I'm sure.

paprika wrote:I like how you criticized people who made their own definitions of what the server should be, players much older to this server than you are, and then proceeded to make up your own claim of what /tg/ is. When you pay for the server you can decide, but last I heard scaredy wanted actual roleplay in his server.

I criticized people who assumed their definitions is the only true correct one and not just an opinion. I mean, I kind of do that when posting on forums, but that's because I'm a terrible person, not because it's a proper way to do it.

paprika wrote:You can't selectively mute people locally, so yes, people are fucking forced to watch ERP you fat nasty trash.

So code selective mute. I'm sure it's not that hard, I may even look through the code myself.

For now, I'd like to propose a compromise. The problem with being offended can be easily solved with selective mute (just please don't start "I DUNNA WANNA HAVE TO MUTE HUR DUR" or something along those lines). The problem with people fucking off... Is it really that much of a problem? Does it matter for what reason people fuck off, because people WILL fuck off, that's pretty much granted, so does it matter? I dunno, I think then you should deal with it on case-by-case basis, have a list of items and jobs that ERPers should not have, items you can leave, jobs can be "left" at HoP's. There you go, if you really think that it has to be like that. The problem is still that occasional gimmick that will probably be bwoinked.

paprika wrote:exclusively play assistant

paprika wrote:contribute literally nothing to the round

Okay, everything like it always is, what's the problem here?

paprika wrote:waste their antag roles

I do that all the time in case I feel like it. And I pretty much never do the objectives. Come on, THAT is not a problem. Antags are not obligated to do shit about anything, don't try to make them do shit.

Mandurrrh · Post by **Mandurrrh** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:27 am #19166

Isane wrote:I have not personally witnessed ERP in probably over half a year now. The one name I actually remember, Sonia Aronkoth or whatever, I have not seen in maybe a year, so I cannot really judge how much they have contributed to the playerbase. Just as much as any other random player I guess.

Apparently Kenzie Smith and Johnathan Rigel ERP together, but I have never seen it so I'm not even sure if it's true, and they contribute to the game just as much as any other random player from what I have seen, if not more.

Also, you didn't answer any of my questions...

Isane wrote: So, how much actual ERP do you witness per round or per day? Can you name the specific names of those you see ERPing regularly? What jobs are the ERPers you witness taking up while doing so? How often have you witnessed antags fucking off to ERP? How often have you witnessed heads of staff / important roles fucking off to ERP?

In over a year of playing, I have personally witnessed ERP probably a little less than a half dozen times, this includes observing and being alive. How about you?

ACTUALLY We do not ERP. And I told TS when we decided to have Kenzie and John date IC that I was against ERP and he has been pretty amazing about it.(He's never participated in it either and wasn't interested) He didn't care in the slightest. I don't care what other people do to get their kicks but if you aren't contributing to the game and you are only coming onto the server to ERP then you can just as well use skype or an actual ERP irc or fucking omegle for all I care. To the comment above about 'who cares if you dont do anything as antag I do it all the time no big deal' <--This is complete shit. With our low pop rounds we only get 1 or 2 antags. So if you fuck off and waste it then we are stuck in an extended round, theres no one to control the end of round/length of round, all the players rolling for antag miss out on being a traitor, and a chance for an exciting/fun/interesting round go down significantly. There's only so much a five man crew can do before you have run out of work and boredom causes players to sign off the server. So if you want to be shit and not participate as an antag do us a favor and turn the option off in your game preferences. What we all need to remember is spessmens is not a one player game and with roleplay its more than a normal multi player game. Its a game thats directly affected by the participation of a community.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:16 pm #19172

I would rather have extended than get murdered with parapen or some other bullshit. ERP is not why low-pop rounds suck. Regulating antag behavior leads to bay.

Mandurrrh · Post by **Mandurrrh** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:29 pm #19174

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:I would rather have extended than get murdered with parapen or some other bullshit. ERP is not why low-pop rounds suck. Regulating antag behavior leads to bay.

No one blamed erp for low pop boredom. And no one said anything about regulating antag behavior. You're twisting words to read them in an offensive manner and try and flip it around. What I said and will state again to clarify is: If you don't want to fucking be a traitor and play the role then don't fucking click the option to play it. I don't care how you go about your antaging as long as you are actually participating as an antag. When you choose to not participate as a traitor you take away a chance for someone else to have fun and it absolutely takes away from everyones round.

You threw ERP in there as the blame for the low pop boredom but I clearly said people who choose to not play antag when rolling for traitor are ONE cause of low pop boredom. I said affected not wholey to blame. But it absolutely ruins rounds and makes people log off to find a more active server. This whole argument is relevant to ERP because the serial ERPers are rolling for antag spots(taking them from other players) and then just fucking off the entire round to ERP in maintenance instead of participate.

Reading through your posts I see you doing this a lot picking bits and pieces of what people are trying to communicate with you and reorganizing the context in your replies to either discredit the argument or make the op seem ignorant but its honestly just coming off as you don't really know what you're talking about and want to redirect the negativity after a lost argument. Take your time and read carefully please.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:57 pm #19177

Mandurrrh wrote:as long as you are actually participating as an antag.

What does this actually mean? Do I have to complete objectives? Do I have to murder people? Do I have to break Space Law? Do I have to order traitor items?

Where is the line that marks participation?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:05 pm #19183

antagonizing people instead of forcing extended because you feel like it

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:17 pm #19188

Anyone who isn't AFKing (whether in a closet or together in the dorms) is participating adequately in the round.

The only thing I'd ever suggest banning is obvious ERP. Defined by, let's say for example, explicit sex being emoted between two people in private. Your kisses, slutty remarks, ass-patting, and visual pulling-jokes are in absolutely no danger. You don't owe me anything but following the ruu-ruus, nor did I ever suggest my opinion is the sole deciding factor here. That said, nobody is coding in a feature so a handful of people can ERP in peace.

Also, for the record some admins outright ban WGW for spam. Porn-reading, like ERP, will never be funny or constructive. That relic of old-/tg/ with its automatic valids and conflict is perhaps the least positive association anyone could make to the practice of erotic roleplay. Shame on anyone that defended you or it.

We're clearly going in circles here so I'll leave you all with this...
ERP is exclusionary and "fun" for a tiny group who don't need to use SS13 to do it anyway. For all intents and purposes they're AFK. Nobody in this thread professing a pro-ERP stance has raised a valid reason why ERP itself is beneficial to the server. Please step away from the politics of removing someone's "rights" and examine this issue objectively; I think you'll find there aren't any benefits. Insisting that people who just want to play should be made to reduce their enjoyment for the sake of bad porn is, again, selfish and against the spirit of the game outlined in our server rules. I'm glad everyone wants to seem mature but being mature regarding sex isn't defending its right to exist in my or anyone's face, it's knowing when and where to apply or pursue sex. The answer? Sure as hell not in SS13.

EDIT: In all honesty this is pointless. Our potential Headmins support it and appealing to tradition will continue to be accepted as a logical reason to have ERP.
There's no reason for discussion when its handwaved as unimportant since they don't personally care, I'll settle for cockblocking.

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:10 pm #19206

No.

I would rather there be my ERP and also have my Woody Got Wood, Errorage. I know you absolutly hate the book, but come on, its Woody Got Wood!

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:39 pm #19230

Subtle summed it up pretty nicely. Anyone pro-ERP doesn't ERP and they aren't really pro-ERP, they're pro 'do whatever you want' and this extends to their opinion of people being forced to 'antag' as traitor or what have you.

It's not like ERP being banned severely hemorrhages your RP freedom. If we banned ERP we could remove the retarded '18 and older' rule and with it the stigma of any of the /tg/ servers being 'erp servers'. The current headmin-electorals aren't even like in favor of ERP, last I checked Pandar takes the same 'lol who cares' stance Isane does, which is pretty common among people who've done it in the past. What they do in private shouldn't enter into their judgement on fair server policy, but their bad attempts to take a subtly pro-ERP stance is literally hilarious.

Munchlax · Post by **Munchlax** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:27 pm #19260

Everything that had to be said has been said so I guess the only thing that really could change things is a poll.
And not a forumpoll.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:45 pm #19262

Put one up on the admin forum and make a player poll on the server.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:25 am #19267

To update my stance, I always took the position that "Surely nobody would do it so much and so often they'd became 'That person who ERPs,' because nobody wants that reputation."

Except then it DID happen which means my whole position on the matter was apparently wrong, and people can't be trusted to show restraint and good judgement. So... yeah.

420goslingboy69 · Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:14 am

paprika wrote:Subtle summed it up pretty nicely. Anyone pro-ERP doesn't ERP and they aren't really pro-ERP, they're pro 'do whatever you want' and this extends to their opinion of people being forced to 'antag' as traitor or what have you.

Except I'm pro-erp and I find it entertaining.