So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:43 pm #198359

So, considering the recent polls results: http://ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/ingamepolls.php

Are secborgs going to be enabled any time soon? Since I want them back.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:52 pm #198374

Combat oriented Cyborgs like the Sec Borg would be fine if they were more susceptible to damage and being stunned/slowed down akin to a Human. Or if they are a unique role akin to the HoS where only one exists.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:02 pm #198376

As long as we keep the peacemaker. There's nothing funnier than chasing after a criminal while you spam WEW WEW HUMAN HARM

As a compromise: only enable secborg when the station is in code red?

peoplearestrange · Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:34 pm

Why not make sec borgs something that can only be built with collaboration between sec and robotics? i.e. sec have to hand over a resources to make one. Effectively making a sec borg an "upgrade" to the anti-harm borg?

That way you limit the number, you make it a sec request thing and you kinda whitelist it in that people have to go the extra mile to make it happen.
Rather than the default of any borg being basically engie, or sec, which gets real boring real fast.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:16 pm #198390

Only with a whitelist. Silicons are fine, but the players are SO TERRIBLE at following silicon laws.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:18 pm

They were fine, bring them back and ignore the anti-siliconers.

onleavedontatme · Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:04 pm

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/19493

A3STH3T1CS · Post by **A3STH3T1CS** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:32 pm #198405

IS IT MERGED THOUGH

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:59 pm #198417

Kor wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/19493

Red alert probably needs some sort of downside so it isn't a no brainer to declare FNR though

Requiring two heads to coordinate a swipe at the same time isn't enough? God damn red alert can be hard to get sometimes.

onleavedontatme · Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:02 pm

In an actual emergency yeah. If the RD just says "hey I want to build secborgs please swipe" at roundstart it will probably be too easy.

Maybe cargo should suffer somehow in a red alert, too dangerous to send supplies or something.

Gamarr · Post by **Gamarr** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:09 pm #198425

Kor wrote:Maybe cargo should suffer somehow in a red alert, too dangerous to send supplies or something.

Regarding supply shuttles and Cargo: Red Alerts/Quarantine situations should slow down supply shuttles (extended the transit timer for them coming in and leaving) perhaps? Can also take this and go further with having certain (specific things/categories of crates or randomly chosen) crates removed for 'security or hazardous-quarantine reasons' when they come in during said situations.

Such as: Red alert? Maybe they don't let any weapons crates through any longer. Now hear me out on this last point though; It makes somewhat sense to restrict weaponry and dangerous tech being shipped in during a red alert, as weaponry and such should be shipped in prior and not during the emergency.

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:20 pm #198430

secborgs are inherently shitty in that they're almost completely incapable of effectively following asimov and are as effective as three harmbatonners with any other lawset

let's leave them out for a little longer, yeah?

Bolien · Post by **Bolien** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:26 pm #198433

IcePacks wrote:secborgs are inherently shitty in that they're almost completely incapable of effectively following asimov and are as effective as three harmbatonners with any other lawset

let's leave them out for a little longer, yeah?

no

Gamarr · Post by **Gamarr** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:33 pm #198434

IcePacks wrote:secborgs are inherently shitty in that they're almost completely incapable of effectively following asimov and are as effective as three harmbatonners with any other lawset

let's leave them out for a little longer, yeah?

Yes, this more or less.

TechnoAlchemist · Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:46 pm

Security Borgs are bad and removing them was the best thing anyone ever did do

ShadowDimentio · Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:48 pm

ShadowDimentio wrote:They were fine, bring them back and ignore the anti-siliconers.

dionysus24779 · Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:01 pm

2/3 of the people who actually care want them back, which is pretty great.

Secborgs were fine before, just bring them back as they were. (in fact give them back the disabler/tazer combi... just kidding)

But keep Peacekeepers as a fun module similar to service borg.

I wouldn't restrict them with a whitelist, since no other position really is, or with extra steps to create them like cooperating with Sec, because then it would be difficult for malf/rogue AI's to get them and I feel like many HoSs would just say "no".

Just bring them back as they were...

onleavedontatme · Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:02 pm

After watching a secborg steamroll a mob of revs, get subverted, then steamroll sec, I'm questioning the wisdom of bringing them back.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:06 pm

It's almost like a lengthy leave of absence people have forgotten how to fight them.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:30 pm #198451

Fuck secborgs. Fuck anyone who wants them back too.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:05 pm #198457

Kor wrote:After watching a secborg steamroll a mob of revs, get subverted, then steamroll sec, I'm questioning the wisdom of bringing them back.

Mmmm, considering how long they were disabled. Its naturally obvious that people would have forgotten how to effectively take them down, which technically would be even simpler without Pixel projectiles now.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:21 pm #198461

InsaneHyena wrote:Fuck secborgs. Fuck anyone who wants them back too.

"Fuck the majority of players because they don't agree with my opinion!"
Heh.

dionysus24779 · Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:33 pm

Don't we have a lot of new players too by now? Wasn't there a huge influx?

If so then they might have joined while Secborgs where gone and have no idea what to do. I dunno...

I still have a hard time comprehending how it is supposed to be so hard to deal with Secborg, but I don't want to open that can of worms.

AnonymousNow · Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:33 pm

Alright, how about this - remove/tweak anything that a secborg can use to beat someone to death with, unless they're hacked.

So a secborg can detain someone, but it lacks the equipment to kill them unless fully compromised.

onleavedontatme · Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:37 pm

>cuff someone
>drag them into space

or

>disable spam someone
>let security murder them despite being asimov

or

>clown breaks window
>disable and take them to brig over shouts of LAW 2 LET ME GO

Making it so they couldn't hurt people wouldn't really solve the problems

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:38 pm #198469

AnonymousNow wrote:Alright, how about this - remove/tweak anything that a secborg can use to beat someone to death with, unless they're hacked.

So a secborg can detain someone, but it lacks the equipment to kill them unless fully compromised.

So just remove the "HARM" mode from borgs?
What about non-humans?

AnonymousNow · Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:39 pm

Kor wrote:Perfectly valid points

I guess I mean the ability to beat them to death at any location, which is a powerful thing indeed. Since their stun capability discharges with use, they need to move pretty fast to keep someone locked up.

A3STH3T1CS · Post by **A3STH3T1CS** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:49 pm #198472

it's been too long already.

bring secborgs back please, the emergency thing is a great idea.

fuck these millennials

Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:06 pm

isnt sybil open to the hub or something now
and if so doesnt that mean like half those votes are from newfriends who werent around for secborgs

also secborgs are really bad, like literally the only positive experience i got from them was the time i hijacked the shuttle two rounds in a row because i was a traitor roboticist and emagged a bunch of secborgs. while that was fun for me and the borgs, everybody else was pretty fucking mad, especially the second round i did it. secborgs are wildly powerful and not really fun

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:08 pm #198477

PKPenguin321 wrote:isnt sybil open to the hub or something now
and if so doesnt that mean like half those votes are from newfriends who werent around for secborgs

also secborgs are really bad, like literally the only positive experience i got from them was the time i hijacked the shuttle two rounds in a row because i was a traitor roboticist and emagged a bunch of secborgs. while that was fun for me and the borgs, everybody else was pretty fucking mad, especially the second round i did it. secborgs are wildly powerful and not really fun

Finally some goddamn wisdom shows up in this thread.

Bolien · Post by **Bolien** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:14 pm #198480

InsaneHyena wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:bad memes
more bad memes.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:15 pm #198481

t. silicon player

Bolien · Post by **Bolien** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:18 pm #198482

t. anti-sillycone memer

Post by **oranges** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:36 pm #198485

renabled? They're gone fishing!

Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:45 pm

Bolien wrote:
InsaneHyena wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:bad memes
more bad memes.

>this is how people who want secborgs back argue

but yeah like i said

literally the only positive experience i got from secborgs was the time i hijacked the shuttle two rounds in a row because i was a traitor roboticist and emagged a bunch of secborgs. while that was fun for me and the borgs, everybody else was pretty fucking mad, especially the second round i did it. secborgs are wildly powerful and not really fun

Bolien · Post by **Bolien** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:56 pm #198493

I swear to god PKP you get triggered more by secborgs than a veteran on the 4th of July.

While borgs are tougher than normal spessmen, they aren't that difficult to deal with them.
Sometimes it means being a little creative (and not shit.)

I do believe Secborgs should be enabled on the server, but nerfed in some regards.
Perhaps removing their stunbaton so no more instant stun, or greatly increasing the amount of battery disabler shots use.

I'm also in favor of the red alert system or the whitelist system.

dionysus24779 · Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:44 pm

I rather have a whitelist then some silly transformtion though. And if we nerf them further we can just give it up and rely on the Peacekeeper borg again who is already a parody of all the proposed nerfs.

And PKP is foaming from the mount with hatred everytime borgs come up anyway.

We had secborgs disabled after a ridiculously short test period, it has been months, players want it back, so what's wrong with it.

Like I said, according to the poll basically 66% of all players who did care at all want them back. That's more than half. And the players opposed are nearly as numerous as the ones who don't even care in the first place.

I see no reason not to just enable them again and see how it plays out.

How about a campaign to raise secborg awareness to teach players how to properly play them and maybe teach people like PKP how to deal with borgs? Maybe there should be a 0TC traitor item which is a book called "How to fight borgs 101" that lists all the available counters because some people don't want to aknowledge they exist.

Hell maybe there should be a wiki page dedicated to just listing how to combat borgs and what tools are effective...

Bolien · Post by **Bolien** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:49 pm #198499

dionysus24779 wrote:Hell maybe there should be a wiki page dedicated to just listing how to combat borgs and what tools are effective...

Maybe just adding a section about weaknesses to the current borg page would be worthwhile.

dionysus24779 · Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:08 pm

I feel like this could actually be a good idea.

List exactly what tools can be effective against borgs and what each traitor has at their disposal to easily deal with them and such.

MrEousTranger · Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:22 am

PKPenguin321 wrote:isnt sybil open to the hub or something now

Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:34 am

dionysus24779 wrote:I rather have a whitelist then some silly transformtion though. And if we nerf them further we can just give it up and rely on the Peacekeeper borg again who is already a parody of all the proposed nerfs.

And PKP is foaming from the mount with hatred everytime borgs come up anyway.

We had secborgs disabled after a ridiculously short test period, it has been months, players want it back, so what's wrong with it.

Like I said, according to the poll basically 66% of all players who did care at all want them back. That's more than half. And the players opposed are nearly as numerous as the ones who don't even care in the first place.

I see no reason not to just enable them again and see how it plays out.

How about a campaign to raise secborg awareness to teach players how to properly play them and maybe teach people like PKP how to deal with borgs? Maybe there should be a 0TC traitor item which is a book called "How to fight borgs 101" that lists all the available counters because some people don't want to aknowledge they exist.

Hell maybe there should be a wiki page dedicated to just listing how to combat borgs and what tools are effective...

"hes foaming at the mouth" said the player known for having some of the saltiest posts on the "rage tears regret stories" thread

i dislike the "PK doesnt like borgs but because he's PK his points don't count! :^)" meme, and i suspect it happened partially because borg players know i'm right

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:41 am

You use circular arguments

But borgs are OP!
But there's a counter to them with every antag.
But I don't want to be forced to counterplay!
But you don't have to.
But borgs are OP!

Repeat

Bolien · Post by **Bolien** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:44 am #198552

PKPenguin321 wrote:i dislike the "PK doesnt like borgs but because he's PK his points don't count! :^)" meme, and i suspect it happened partially because borg players know i'm right

No. Its because you meme'd yourself, congratulations.

EDIT: Wew, Shadow is actually right.

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:29 am

Borgs are not fun to play against, it devolves to stunning them since they take almost no drawbacks from just damage. There is no counterplay to them, unlike the AI you can't cut cameras to stop them, unlike humans you can't disarm them

>lol just flash or emp them get good
??????

>lol all your arguments have been debunked so circular lmao!
??????????????

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:33 am #198576

If you seek to convince us, you're not doing a very good job simply because your arguments, as a whole, can be taken apart as in the example given.

If you're just ranting, go ahead, but don't expect anyone to care.

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:57 am #198586

Weirdly I used to be all for secborgs, but after playing dozens of times as an emaged engiborg I canreally see why they might be annoying for some people.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:05 am #198587

Know what I love though? How, if a poll doesn't go in someones favour, then 'obviously' something must be wrong with the poll and its not valid!

Screemonster · Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:24 am

firecage wrote:Know what I love though? How, if a poll doesn't go in someones favour, then 'obviously' something must be wrong with the poll and its not valid!

This isn't exactly exclusive to SS13, just look at the crowds of protesters that turned up the day after the EU referendum and last general election.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:38 am #198600

Well, like any close poll, there are still a bunch of people who think what they voted for was right. Pro-secborg people shouldn't suddenly expect anti-secborg people to go "I see, I was wrong, let's have secborgs now" especially when anti-secborg people weren't very keen on poll results when their polls didn't give them satisfaction.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:03 pm #198606

Cheimon wrote:Well, like any close poll, there are still a bunch of people who think what they voted for was right. Pro-secborg people shouldn't suddenly expect anti-secborg people to go "I see, I was wrong, let's have secborgs now" especially when anti-secborg people weren't very keen on poll results when their polls didn't give them satisfaction.

Cheimon, naturally I wouldn't expect them to agree with the polls results, but I would expect them to just suck it up and accept it, instead of trying to either blame the poll, or try to make excuses that the people who voted didn't know what they were doing. And I know, in every single case, both sides do the same thing. if the poll had ended up on the opposite side, people on the pro-secborg side would have used the same excuses, and it would be equally as retarded.

Screewmonster, And yah, in elections/polls/referendums, the losing side always gets extremely butthurt and tries to prevent whatever said election/poll/referendum went out to do, or just impede its progress, which is pathetic when people do it IRL in a supposed democratic country. Only democracy when it suits you.