Can someone betray their team under duress?

[Cheimon]

This isn't based on anything that I've seen in game.

It's a rules question. If someone is in an antagonist team (cult, rev, gang) and they are captured, then given strong roleplaying/IC reasons to betray their team, can they do so without breaking the rules?

Let me give an example. There is a gang. A gang member is caught with an uzi and a spray can. They are taken to interrogation and told they will be set on fire to die unless they reveal the name of the person who converted them to the gang. They have not been deconverted. They are then set on fire and they reveal the name of the gang head, at which point they're extinguished and healed. Has the gang member broken the rules? Has security broken the rules?

[iamgoofball]

snitches get stitches

[lzimann]

I've always considered being converted a brainwash thing, so even under death threats you wouldnt talk...

[iamgoofball]

except gangs

gangs aren't brainwashing

it's a WAY OF LIFE

s n i t c h e s
g e t
s t i t c h e s

don't rat out a brother

grove street for life

[Davidchan]

Define duress. Someone slapping you about, immediately healing your wounds every 30 seconds? A borg threatening harm to a human? Empty threats from someone who'se made no hostile action towards you?

In those cases, no there isn't any god damn reason the converted should squeal.

Repeatedly being put into crit before stabalized, dismembered or having surgery done on you ghetto style? Yeah this would probably be enough to break people.

[TheNightingale]

How loyal are you to the team? Are you a fresh convert who hasn't experienced the horrors of war, or are you a roundstart leader with extreme devotion?
How serious is the duress? "Talk or we'll kill you" isn't a big threat when there's a borg around the corner watching. Getting peppersprayed in the eyes has to hurt, though.
And how likely is the chance of retaliation? Is Security steamrolling your team, and snitching on the other members would mean they couldn't get revenge? Or is Sec fighting a losing battle, and the chance of you being shanked by your ex-buddies for snitching is high?

[iamgoofball]

s n i t c h e s
g e t
s t i t c h e s

seriously man don't rat out your buddies

[ColonicAcid]

Hell fucking yeah dude.

If its roleplayed well HELL fucking yeah. This is as IC issue as it gets. Now, there's a difference between under duress and as soon as you get caught you squeal like a bagpipe. That much is for certain, but if one of the party puts the effort to force you to speak, than that should absolutely be your jurisdiction if you want to tattle or take your secrets to the grave.

[Cheimon]

Thanks for the opinions, everyone. Obviously I'm assuming some sense in which this roleplay is consistent with your established character (OOC dickishness should never be okay).

I'd be really interested in admin opinions on this.

snitches get stitches

Special thanks to goof for saying exactly the same thing three times. This is as good a thread as any other to improve post counts, I guess.

[onleavedontatme]

Honestly this situation will probably not come up (they can just implant you), and if it ever does it's better to just die rather than risk someone adminhelping and getting sucked into drama.

[Cheimon]

Honestly this situation will probably not come up (they can just implant you), and if it ever does it's better to just die rather than risk someone adminhelping and getting sucked into drama.

Honestly the reason I'm asking is because I was considering doing "enhanced" interrogation for this reason as a detective a while back and I was wondering if it would be breaking any rules/pressuring other players to break the rules. Especially since an implant frequently ruins memory and causes people to 'forget' who converted them, destroying crucial evidence.

[TechnoAlchemist]

if sec is cutting off your limbs and beating you bloody and putting time and effort into trying to RP torture or interrogation I imagine it's acceptable to snitch, I doubt you'll be banned for roleplaying as long as it makes sense in context

[Reece]

if sec is cutting off your limbs and beating you bloody and putting time and effort into trying to RP torture or interrogation I imagine it's acceptable to snitch, I doubt you'll be banned for roleplaying as long as it makes sense in context

Hell yeah, best part if playing CMO is setting up a real nice toolbag, then working with security to break prisoners. Blinding people, cutting off arms, ripping out teeth, hooking them up to ethanol IV's, draining their blood till they're barely alive. It's a fun house in the interrogation room.

[TheNightingale]

if sec is cutting off your limbs and beating you bloody and putting time and effort into trying to RP torture or interrogation I imagine it's acceptable to snitch, I doubt you'll be banned for roleplaying as long as it makes sense in context

Hell yeah, best part if playing CMO is setting up a real nice toolbag, then working with security to break prisoners. Blinding people, cutting off arms, ripping out teeth, hooking them up to ethanol IV's, draining their blood till they're barely alive. It's a fun house in the interrogation room.

Hippocratic Oath doesn't exist in space.

[Davidchan]

To imply any code of ethics or rights exsist on tg.

Everyones knows the only group with any rights is security and they get to do what ever the fuck they want and kill anyon who opposes them

[Malkevin]

Honestly this situation will probably not come up (they can just implant you), and if it ever does it's better to just die rather than risk someone adminhelping and getting sucked into drama.

Well with rev and cult once they're deconverted they forget who the other antags are

[Wyzack]

if sec is cutting off your limbs and beating you bloody and putting time and effort into trying to RP torture or interrogation I imagine it's acceptable to snitch, I doubt you'll be banned for roleplaying as long as it makes sense in context

Until some assblasted baby comes crying on the fucking forums making a pseudo ban request in policy discussion about how someone must suffer for his round being TOTALLY RUINED

[Shaps-cloud]

Honestly this situation will probably not come up (they can just implant you), and if it ever does it's better to just die rather than risk someone adminhelping and getting sucked into drama.

Well with rev and cult once they're deconverted they forget who the other antags are

Revs remember, gangs don't

[Malkevin]

Revs only remember who flashed them.

Not sure what gangs can remember.

[bandit]

The exact deconversion text:

You have been reformed! You are no longer a gangster!

You try as hard as you can, but you can't seem to recall any of the identities of your former gangsters...

[ChangelingRain]

Absolutely not if you serve Ratvar you serve only him and his goals and not the people trying to get you to serve them(by having you tell them stuff)

In general it's absolutely a terrible idea to let conversion antags get betrayed by their teammates because holy fuck is that an admin headache to deal with, especially because it may be difficult to determine how much 'under duress' the antag in question was after the fact.

[Gamarr]

In almost all the team modes we have here, the team/factions objective supersedes everything. So no, you really shouldn't be ratting anyone out without some kind of benefit in doing so. If you're a leader for instance and you sell them one of your lieutenants to get a chance to walk? Your choice, if it works great but if you do and they put a bullet in both of you anyway, well you asked for that too.

If it's played, to some extent I guess; but no normal rev should be giving the name of his leader, ever. The time they spend interrogating and torturing the minion is badly spent and worth his dying as they ask their questions. Sadly this logic goes for pretty much gang (the one other side is pointing out a known enemy gang at the chance to get yourself to walk, but then this is probably one of the reasons why gang sucks), rev, and both cults. Unless the person is a lynchpin to the faction then the person needs to die for the greater good of their team and do it with a gusto or at least bother the security and tie them up enough with words that they are effectively helping the team by keeping officers at the brig instead of doing something productive.

[Cheimon]

Okay, it looks like there's a consensus here. For some modes, the concept of betrayal makes no sense: the brainwashing is too strong. For others, it makes sense, but it's hard to draw the line (that is, everyone has a different opinion on the amount of duress that's fair to crack under). There's nothing in the rules against torturing a known antagonist, but it's a total OOC shitfest if a disadvantaged teammate tries to get the other person banned.

Ultimately, it seems too likely to turn into a weird metagame, where certain players are likely to rat out their friends as soon as they can without getting banned. This seems especially likely because we've already seen it happen with certain players without duress (and they've had to be banned). Working this into a specific playstyle (be that detective or whatever) seems to be a good way to create unnecessary drama, without necessarily making the game modes more fun. Enhanced interrogation still has a place, but it's not to fuck up the balance of Cops and Robbers.

[Jacough]

if sec is cutting off your limbs and beating you bloody and putting time and effort into trying to RP torture or interrogation I imagine it's acceptable to snitch, I doubt you'll be banned for roleplaying as long as it makes sense in context

> security taking you apart piece by piece until you're nothing but a torso and head that needs to be dragged around in an office chair unless you tell them what they want

It's horrifying enough that I'd snitch

[Luke Cox]

For cults, absolutely not. They are literally brainwashed. Traitors don't have any loyalty to one another as it is, so they can sing like canaries. Gang and rev, as long as they're not heads.

[NikNakFlak]

Luke cox being wrong and awful again, surprise surprise

[Anonmare]

I'm of the opinion that non-conversion team antags could betray one another under duress with proper RP.
I dunno know about you but if I managed to pull off an OP's mask, I don't think they would feel a lotta loyalty for a hired gun, even if it means the cost of their master plan of crashing the station with no survivors.

[TheNightingale]

I pretended to betray my team as a nukeop once (in that short period when they didn't have explosive implants). Eventually Sec released me, so I assassinated the Captain and took the disk (but couldn't find the nuke).

[MMMiracles]

Luke cox being wrong and awful again, surprise surprise

Cultists would never squeal no matter what situation, though. They're literally brainwashed to the point of requiring divine intervention to separate their ties with whatever god converted them. Ratvar himself even chimes in mid-conversion if you try to convert a ratvarian cultist on a narsie conversion rune with threatening them that if they give in, they'll "feel pain unlike anything you've ever felt!"

[NikNakFlak]

I was talking about the gang and rev part

[Luke Cox]

Luke cox is wrong and awful for disagreeing with my opinion

[TRIGGERING INTENSIFIES]

[Armhulen]

Luke cox is wrong and awful for disagreeing with my opinion

[TRIGGERING INTENSIFIES]

Nik is correct, revs are brainwashing and whatever the fuck gang is doing with that pen really does look like brainwashing

[Luke Cox]

That's how it currently is, but that's not how it has to be. Brainwashing only makes sense in respect to cults.