Clothing Damage

Housecat · Post by **Housecat** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:28 am #218059

I've been waiting for someone to make a thread but I guess I'll have to do it. I have never seen more people walking around naked. The new changes to clothing may be realistic and immersive in a certain sense, but from what I've seen they add nothing to gameplay. It's frustrating to lose items and annoying at best to take care of them. Unique items can easily be lost forever. I think the furniture damage changes are overall positive but having everything you're wearing destroyed by melee hits or fire is way too much and has a negative impact on a game based around continually grappling with danger. I've only seen people with bad things to say about it. I don't like it and I think it should be removed or HEAVILY decreased. I'd like to hear others' perspective on this and welcome people to share their experience

Post by **oranges** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:51 am #218061

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:13 am #218064

I agree it is pretty god damn annoying. Especially when my snowflake gear gets destroyed. We had explosions destroying equipment once before, it was near universally panned as awful and got reverted. What makes this any different?

Kel · Post by **Kel** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:25 am #218066

Somehow has made plasmafires even more annoying.
No matter how fire protected you are, traversing a fire-laden hall almost guarantees you just lost your backpack and toolbelt.

Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:15 am

backpacks etc should not melt off if you are wearing something fireproof

PathOfChaos1 · Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:26 am

Damage seems to destroy all clothing all at the same time instantly.. how many times have I been mining, and for whatever reason I catch on fire. My fully upgraded suit burns away at the same time my jumpsuit does. Both of which have fire resistance....(maybe not the jumpsuit) This change is annoying, and not in the good way.

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:46 am #218086

>wearing CE hardsuit
>start plasmafire murderspree
>backpack gets burned off
>plutonium core and metal powerfist inside get burned up
>toolbelt gets burned
This feature sucks, remove it. Before the change, noone said "Gee, if only we had item damage!" Pretty sure more people dislike than like this feature.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:47 am #218087

Just make exosuits protect items

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:57 am #218089

iamgoofball wrote:Just make exosuits protect items

or remove the feature entirely as it adds nothing to the game

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:04 am #218093

He is right. We had it once, it was bad, it was removed. Why is it back again?

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:11 am #218110

typical
"ugh X is bad remove it"
"Why is X bad"
"X is bad becuz Y remove X"
"Okay let's try fixing Y that could fix X"
"X IS BAD REMOVE X"

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:21 am

It's a good feature, it's just horrible right now and needs serious tweaking.

Outer layers need to protect inner layers, and certain items need to be more durable.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:25 am #218114

TG's had clothing take damage from fire and bomb damage for a long while now. It was one of the later things I coded before I stopped playing. And the code for it was intact up until 3 days ago, when Phil had his object defense refactor merged.

So whatever went wrong, don't blame me. I'm sure it just needs a bit of tweaking.

For example, in my version, it would only burn clothes off corpses because I felt that fire was common enough to become frustrating. For bomb damage, outer layer clothing would protect the layers underneath, and backpacks had a significantly reduced chance to be blown away.

phil235 · Post by **phil235** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:48 am #218151

TechnoAlchemist wrote:It's a good feature, it's just horrible right now and needs serious tweaking.

Outer layers need to protect inner layers, and certain items need to be more durable.

This.

Inner layers getting burned while wearing fireproof exterior clothes shouldn't happen, it's a bug I need to fix.
Everything else is just tweaking three values (obj_integrity, armor[fire], resistance_flags) for various items.

TheColdTurtle · Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:09 pm

Would mining suits be slightly fireproof? Because the cult trap ruin is the worst thing now. And if you get hit by a Drake all of your shit is fucking gone forever.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:29 pm #218225

Basically the way i feel about it is that there is enough ways in this game to get totally dicked over. When you die you have to deal with people potentially looting your shit, getting hidden some place you will never be found, getting gibbed creatmated or singulo'd, ect. This is good, it is part of the game. However being able to permanently lose difficult or impossible to replace equipment to hazards as common as fire and explosions is frustrating and i feel like losing my snowflake detective suit, while irritating, is not exactly adding difficulty.

ShadowDimentio · Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:38 pm

Tweaking a bad change probably won't magically make it a good change, just a slightly less bad one

This seems to make fire just absurdly strong though, which was a buff that nobody really asked for because fire was already very deadly.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:32 am #218468

Was on fire for a couple seconds as a traitor because someone else flooded plasma. Destroyed my backpack, all my traitor gear, and more importantly the intellicard I was just about to use to complete my steal AI objective. I've had rounds where my explorer suit was the only thing to survive whatever mishap I'd run into while mining, losing me all the stuff I've already acquired in my pack and webbing, and more importantly all the points on my ID.

At the moment, next to no one is happy with this, and it really needs to be quickly reverted and fixed. Losing all your shit because you run into whatever small hazard just makes you not want to play the round anymore.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:41 am #218471

Clothing damage is fucking dumb. I got hit with a fireball and the only things left on me from a fully armed setup with things inside backpack was my jumpsuit, glasses, armor, and PDA. Everything else was GONE. Things inside backpack weren't even shredded, they were DELETED.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:38 pm #218473

Didn't it also delete your loyalty implant?

Lumbermancer · Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:46 pm

Remember when explosion blast used to destroy all your items and strip you naked. It wasn't fun.

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:59 pm #218477

I thought it was fun.

Lumbermancer · Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:52 pm

Assistants would not care, yes.

Deitus · Post by **Deitus** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:06 pm #218521

iamgoofball wrote:typical
"ugh X is bad remove it"
"Why is X bad"
"X is bad becuz Y remove X"
"Okay let's try fixing Y that could fix X"
"X IS BAD REMOVE X"

ShadowDimentio wrote:Tweaking a bad change probably won't magically make it a good change, just a slightly less bad one

This seems to make fire just absurdly strong though, which was a buff that nobody really asked for because fire was already very deadly.

this. all of this. its a change that nobody asked for, the vast majority dislikes, and even if it was "fixed" would still be awful. the same goes for many more things being destructible, most of all being doors, which is basically an emag that takes time. the greytide already gets into places they shouldnt be incredibly easily, why make it worse? at the very, VERY least with the latter make the "drop" for destroyed doors be airlock electronics, wires, AND metal instead of just 2 metal sheets so it can be rebuilt somewhat easily.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:04 pm #218571

What is the point to this other than being an attempt at realism? Is it ever fun losing your shit to a common hazard?

The Ultimate Chimera · Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:51 am

Remove it.

cocothegogo · Post by **cocothegogo** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:31 am #218746

once again coders proving they don't care about community feedback

The Ultimate Chimera · Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:19 pm

The whole PR broke stuff, just revert it tbh.

Housecat · Post by **Housecat** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:07 pm #218820

To me as a player having to carry around cloth and ask botany for it (assuming botany is even functional), or carry an extra suit, is just clutter and a chore. It might be easy to say what's the big deal but when you play the game regularly it's draining to perform the same routine tasks over and over, and this adds another one for no real benefit. And as someone who plays botany more than average I think making this depend on the biogenerator is a silly way to shoehorn botany into relevance.

If this feature is going to be included, here's how I think it could be made much less disruptive and frustrating:
- Make hardsuits (particularly the explorer suit) indestructible or near indestructible - because the only thing less fun than losing your jumpsuit is losing a hardsuit - and make them prevent damage to all other equipment
- Add single use, pocket sized clothing patches to vendomats so people can repair in an emergency
- Have nanotrasen start using fireproof fabric on their state of the art plasma research station, year 2556

Iatots · Post by **Iatots** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:09 pm #218822

While I agree that punching a shirt will mess up the fibers a bit, maybe limit clothes to taking brute damage from sharp objects in the future?
After this update is heavily reworked, that is. The stations propensity to catching fire wasn't balanced to account for things like this.
If you really want to keep this is please limit it to blue flames only, at least, ideally only to fire hot enough to put you in crit before your clothes burn off completely.

Weisyl · Post by **Weisyl** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:36 pm #218839

This feature is especially bad for mining where you take damage on a routine basis. It's basically a REQUIREMENT now to bring a spare jumpsuit, and even then, if you lose it in the middle of a fight with say, megafauna, that can totally get you fucked over. Even worse is that your actual explorer suit will eventually fall apart too, so now you have no suit since generally there's always 3 miners, and the upgrades you made to it meant shit in the end.

Edit: I've also had my backpack and shit fall apart while fighting a drake, and then I think most of the gear in it immediately burned because I couldn't find most of it afterword. Do I even have to continue on this...

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:11 pm #219005

Rather than outright deleting the clothing I think it should just be damaged up to the point where it loses its functionality and it's basically like you're just wearing torn rags in that slot. Then add the ability to repair damaged/broken equipment. That way you can at least recover from an accident if you have the right tools.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:55 pm #219010

That is an excellent idea Rico, it would make it much less shit

Post by **Cobby** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:46 pm #219021

Ricotez wrote:Rather than outright deleting the clothing I think it should just be damaged up to the point where it loses its functionality and it's basically like you're just wearing torn rags in that slot. Then add the ability to repair damaged/broken equipment. That way you can at least recover from an accident if you have the right tools.

on a similar note, can we have the airlocks drop the parts needed to make said airlock so you can rebuild them if someone memes them down?

Post by **oranges** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:08 pm #219067

cocothegogo wrote:once again coders proving they don't care about community feedback

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/21004
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/20980
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/20977
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/20967
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/20952
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/20951
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/20934

ShadowDimentio · Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:16 am

Shooting someone in the leg for no reason and then taking them to the doctor doesn't obligate them to be grateful to you because they'll still have a fucking hole in their leg.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Tweaking a bad change probably won't magically make it a good change, just a slightly less bad one

Post by **oranges** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:43 am #219099

this isn't being reverted, learn to live with that and move on to improving it's values.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:47 am

Classic coder stance, "Fuck you players I know better, suck my cock and deal with it"

Also note how everyone who's defending this is a coder.

co·in·ci·dence
kōˈinsədəns/
noun
noun: coincidence; plural noun: coincidences; noun: co-incidence; plural noun: co-incidences

1.
a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection.
"it's no coincidence that this new burst of innovation has occurred in the free nations"
synonyms: accident, chance, serendipity, fortuity, providence, happenstance, fate; a fluke
"too close to be mere coincidence"

onleavedontatme · Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:59 am

ShadowDimentio wrote: Also note how everyone who's defending this is a coder.

Maybe because we realize that a ~4k line, 464 file code change that standardizes damage handling instead of a bunch of piecemeal garbage code that's been building up for years is not something we should kneejerk revert. We are very aware of the back end benefits since we have to work around this stuff on a regular basis.

Yes the gameplay has suffered right now, including making my codebaby lavaland borderline unplayable, but I have faith that Phil will make it better.

TechnoAlchemist · Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:11 am

do i count as a coder now

Post by **oranges** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:30 am #219125

ShadowDimentio wrote:Classic coder stance, "Fuck you players I know better, suck my cock and deal with it"

Also note how everyone who's defending this is a coder.

co·in·ci·dence
kōˈinsədəns/
noun
noun: coincidence; plural noun: coincidences; noun: co-incidence; plural noun: co-incidences

1.
a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection.
"it's no coincidence that this new burst of innovation has occurred in the free nations"
synonyms: accident, chance, serendipity, fortuity, providence, happenstance, fate; a fluke
"too close to be mere coincidence"

This was uncharitable

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 am #219148

From a game design point of view it makes no sense to add a feature if you then tweak this feature until it no longer affects gameplay in a relevant way. Adding item damage and then removing it from those items that are more likely to sustain damage makes the feature utterly useless. At that point you may as well remove it.

There are triple A games like Fallout or Elder Scrolls series where item damage is an important part of the gameplay, and repairing your items doesn't feel like a chore. However, in those games you can find all you need while exploring, without having to backtrack to the nearest outpost or city each time your stuff gets damaged. Just add some ways to scavenge/craft cloth from Lavaland and I'm sure that miners will be able to enjoy the game again.

Iatots · Post by **Iatots** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:56 am #219156

Grazyn wrote:From a game design point of view it makes no sense to add a feature if you then tweak this feature until it no longer affects gameplay in a relevant way. Adding item damage and then removing it from those items that are more likely to sustain damage makes the feature utterly useless. At that point you may as well remove it.

There are triple A games like Fallout or Elder Scrolls series where item damage is an important part of the gameplay, and repairing your items doesn't feel like a chore. However, in those games you can find all you need while exploring, without having to backtrack to the nearest outpost or city each time your stuff gets damaged. Just add some ways to scavenge/craft cloth from Lavaland and I'm sure that miners will be able to enjoy the game again.

The work is still there, even if all clothes get infinite HP the code is now a bit better. Also lmao a fucking bethesdrone that thinks duct-taping degradable weapons together is a well though-out mechanic.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:18 am

Kor wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote: Also note how everyone who's defending this is a coder.
Maybe because we realize that a ~4k line, 464 file code change that standardizes damage handling instead of a bunch of piecemeal garbage code that's been building up for years is not something we should kneejerk revert. We are very aware of the back end benefits since we have to work around this stuff on a regular basis.

Yes the gameplay has suffered right now, including making my codebaby lavaland borderline unplayable, but I have faith that Phil will make it better.

Oh boy so this wasn't a gameplay change it was a code change that broke everything until it was fixed, even better

Look man. I don't know shit about code, all I care about is gameplay and the effects a new thing has on it. Defending a bad gameplay change just because holy shit the server broke for a few days but the code stacks /so well/ or because "our coder overlords will make it better eventually" is completely ass-backwards.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Tweaking a bad change probably won't magically make it a good change, just a slightly less bad one

Now this isn't to say I want it totally removed. The change has been damn good on the front of allowing things to be broken so there's less chance of you getting permasealed in an area if you don't have a toolbelt, something I experienced a few weeks ago as I play nuker and got sealed in a room with an indestructible vending machine standing between me and freedom. Just remove the clothing damage and we'll be gucci.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:19 pm #219161

Kor wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote: Also note how everyone who's defending this is a coder.
Maybe because we realize that a ~4k line, 464 file code change that standardizes damage handling instead of a bunch of piecemeal garbage code that's been building up for years is not something we should kneejerk revert. We are very aware of the back end benefits since we have to work around this stuff on a regular basis.

Yes the gameplay has suffered right now, including making my codebaby lavaland borderline unplayable, but I have faith that Phil will make it better.

If anything ergo's nerfs hit it harder.

Deitus · Post by **Deitus** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:50 pm #219254

oranges wrote:this isn't being reverted, learn to live with that and move on to improving it's values.

...are you fucking serious right now? this isnt a troll? dude, you're acting like fucking HG right now. the vast majority of people here are saying that they dont like this and you are LITERALLY just saying "fuck you" to them for no reason other than "im a coder so deal with it." how fucking conceited can you get? i get that you worked hard on it and shit but that doesnt give you the right to skate over complaints like this. stop being a typical codercunt and maybe learn to listen to other people, jesus christ.

Kor wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote: Also note how everyone who's defending this is a coder.
Maybe because we realize that a ~4k line, 464 file code change that standardizes damage handling instead of a bunch of piecemeal garbage code that's been building up for years is not something we should kneejerk revert. We are very aware of the back end benefits since we have to work around this stuff on a regular basis.

Yes the gameplay has suffered right now, including making my codebaby lavaland borderline unplayable, but I have faith that Phil will make it better.

again, work put into something doesnt give you an excuse to keep it despite overwhelmingly negative feedback. if you want to test something, test it on a TEST SERVER, this is just as bad as goofball atmos "testmerges" that fuck up the server for days.

again: nobody asked for this. nobody suggested it. the vast, VAST majority dislike it and want it reverted. even if the old code was junk, if it aint broke dont fucking "fix" it with shitty testmerges.

Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:54 pm

read Kor's thing, this was part of a massive system refactor on code that has been piling up like a landfill for years that makes it all nice and standardized.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/20793
7 thousand lines changed, 464 files modified. you might not know if you never code but that is a fucking TON of code. gameplay ramifications are a side effect of this refactor and will simply have to be rebalanced as we go, because this PR is massively beneficial to the overall game in the long run, and reverting it would be stupid.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:58 pm #219257

Would removing clothing destruction altogether be possible without taking Kor's codebabby out to pasture? I can appreciate that it was hard work and cleaned up a lot of garbage but i still think that your items getting destroyed by common hazards is altogether bad

Deitus · Post by **Deitus** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:08 pm #219262

PKPenguin321 wrote:read Kor's thing, this was part of a massive system refactor on code that has been piling up like a landfill for years that makes it all nice and standardized.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/20793
7 thousand lines changed, 464 files modified. you might not know if you never code but that is a fucking TON of code. gameplay ramifications are a side effect of this refactor and will simply have to be rebalanced as we go, because this PR is massively beneficial to the overall game in the long run, and reverting it would be stupid.

okay, THIS i can appreciate more than the general "fuck you we're coders" we've been getting. but i have to agree with wyzack, cant we fix the code WITHOUT the clothing damage crap?

420goslingboy69 · Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:24 pm

For one, make backpacks invlunerable. They are your main form of storage. If they burn, you literally can't effectively carry something.
Exosuits burning is fine, honestly, as long as they aren't space-worthy (as that would make no sense anyway). Armored clothing shouldn't burn.
Uniforms burning is fine. Shoes burning, fine. Gloves, belts, hats (helmets should not burn.)

Make the clothing damage to basic shit, not everything. Uniforms and misc exo suit stuff burning and the occasional belt item and pockets isn't a big deal and doesn't ruin gameplay, while still offering clothing damage. I don't care if it's not realistic. Backpacks should be treated as they are used, which is the primary form of "bag of holding-style" storage. This game is still an RPG of sorts. It don't need to be realistic.

The feature isn't inherently bad, although the burnt objects look like shit, but in it's state, it is annoying and not really any sort of fun.