[POLL]Should the Assistant role have reduced Antag status?

[paprika]

Bottom post of the previous page:

you also love participating in grey tide frequently from what i've seen

[Steelpoint]

I have rarely, in my entire time on this server, seen the "greytide" be beneficial in any way whatsoever. They either break in to places, fuck with Security, attack heads of staff, interferer with arrests and act as overall massive idiots.

The only people who love the greytide are people who join in on the greytide.

[Stickymayhem]

To be fair I never greytide anymore. Especially since I discovered telescience.

I suppose what I mean is I enjoy that part of the culture because more often than not in my eexperience they make the rounds I play in far more enjoyable. Maybe you have to have tided to enjoy it from the other end, but I'm never frustrated by assistants burrowing into my department. I just toss their ass out and carry on with my day.

[Kelenius]

Greytiders should be punished harder IMO. It's shitty, it contributes absolutely nothing to the round, it creates obstacles, distracts security from antags, makes greytiders complain when they get arrested by security.

There are a lot of interesting things you can do as an assistant that are not greytiding. Is 'lel break into everywhere' seriously the best idea you can come up with?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

It's fine to like to do whatever instead of any particular job. However, if you don't want to have any responsibilities, you shouldn't have any rights either. It only makes sense and it's the actual point of assistant. They don't deserve any access or same chances to get antag.

[bandit]

I'm fine with assistants losing maint, but there is no fucking reason to nerf their antag chance. When I was first introduced to SS13 the beauty of the antag system was that ANYONE could be antag: the highest of the high, the lowest of the low. (See: sec antag needing to be restored.)

If anything, reducing assistants' maint chances will only increase graytiding, as the people who are shit about it will be shit regardless of antag status, and will likely do so as some sort of protest.

[Scott]

If the point is getting people to play a useful job, then just force it at the selection screen. No assistant slots while there are other job slots available. This way there is no metagaming problem.

I love how many people can repeat this same idea and totally miss the point of assistant.

I like how you post like you're on 4chins and don't explain what you're trying to convey.

[cedarbridge]

I'm fine with assistants losing maint, but there is no fucking reason to nerf their antag chance. When I was first introduced to SS13 the beauty of the antag system was that ANYONE could be antag: the highest of the high, the lowest of the low. (See: sec antag needing to be restored.)

If anything, reducing assistants' maint chances will only increase graytiding, as the people who are shit about it will be shit regardless of antag status, and will likely do so as some sort of protest.

So you're saying that this change would make the shitlers more visible as shitlers? Sounds like a win-win. Merge immediately.

[bandit]

The shitlers are already plenty visible enough, it's just that nothing is done about them. Antag status is irrelevant, as it always has been.

[rosello]

Jesus Christ, do I have to go over this again? Removing maintenance access from assistants is a bad idea, plain and simple. Assistants can still get their tools, there are coins available outside maintenance, the only thing that will change is that every maintenance door will be hacked open. Add maintenance access to security, medical doctors, whatever. But removing maintenance access is a foolish idea that will solve nothing. Maintenance gives assistants somewhere to be besides places they shouldn't, and yes, greytiders will be greytiders but some people simply play assistant when they want to chill for a round, when they want to sit back and simply get a chance to roleplay without having responsibility.

Nowadays, I'll have blocks of playing a single job, and then have a round or two of assistant. I used to play assistant regularly, and while I did hack liberally, I avoided many other greytiding tendencies. I do not like that people are assuming that this change would only annoy the "shitlers and greytiders", and I do not like that this is being brought up time and time again, with people not considering the others it may affect. Removing maintenance access won't discourage greytiders, removing maintenance access won't make people do something useful, it'll just discourage the people who use it as a cooldown job. I understand the issues with people joining as assistant instead of a useful job, but speaking personally, I usually pick assistant when I don't have much time to play and so I won't have to quit while I'm doing something important.

Removing maintenance access from assistants would also mean that they cannot access aux tool storage, meaning that the rare assistant building projects are much less common, if ever.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

the only thing that will change is that every maintenance door will be hacked open.

That's kind of the point. It will take a lot more time and be a lot more annoying.

some people simply play assistant when they want to chill for a round, when they want to sit back and simply get a chance to roleplay without having responsibility.

In maintenance there's nobody to roleplay with.

So far you haven't said anything to indicate that it's a bad idea. More to the point, you haven't said anything as to why assistants having maintenance access is necessary.

Honestly, we have an obvious overflow of assistants, it doesn't really hurt to cut down the numbers, even if those won't be greytiders.

If you really want to build maintenance house, you can go to HoP and say "Hey buddy, I want to build maintenance house".

I mean, you say that it will not change anything because all doors will be hacked and then you rant about how it's super bad for assistants. So which is it?


Well, you've got a point about people turning to greytide if they lose other things to do in maint. But really, is there not anything else to do besides fucking about maintenance?

[Cipher3]

However, if you don't want to have any responsibilities, you shouldn't have any rights either.

What if I just want to be left alone? I have ended up in the gulag on a round where my entire focus was building something cool in maintenance.

If the point is getting people to play a useful job, then just force it at the selection screen. No assistant slots while there are other job slots available. This way there is no metagaming problem.

I love how many people can repeat this same idea and totally miss the point of assistant.

I like how you post like you're on 4chins and don't explain what you're trying to convey.

You should just read up, but here we go. What's the point of assistant? What's the Newbie Guide on the Wiki say to do? Be assistant.

people playing Assistant may well be new players and the last thing they want is to suddenly be thrusted into a Security or Engineering role

Or does the popular vote want Security who doesn't know to turn their baton on before hitting people with it? A lot of the things in this game which people on this forum recognize as simple aspects are fairly confusing for new people. I mean, there's half a dozen ways to interact with something. Do I click on it while it's in my hand? Do I click on the sprite on screen? Do I right-click? Is there a button for this?

[rosello]

the only thing that will change is that every maintenance door will be hacked open.

That's kind of the point. It will take a lot more time and be a lot more annoying.

The main problem would be in that it would be annoying for others besides the assistants opening the doors. Someone would have to sort the doors out, after all, and that would leave engineers having to sort that shit out, and I could see that getting tedious.

some people simply play assistant when they want to chill for a round, when they want to sit back and simply get a chance to roleplay without having responsibility.

In maintenance there's nobody to roleplay with.

Wrong there, there's actually quite a few places in maintenance for roleplaying.

So far you haven't said anything to indicate that it's a bad idea. More to the point, you haven't said anything as to why assistants having maintenance access is necessary.

I admit, my post wasn't all that well thought out. I was tired and angry that the subject was being brought up again, and I am sorry that my point was not clear. My argument for assistants having maintenance is this; assistants who spend their time fooling around in maintenance are assistants not breaking into places or generally greytiding. While assistants having maintenance does stick out when jobs like security and medical doctors do not, I do support maintenance being more accessible. I, and I'm sure others do as well, think of maintenance as the dirty back-alley of the station, and so it is only fitting that the lowest of the low would spend their time there. I wouldn't say that maintenance access encourages greytiding, although I do understand the argument that it encourages those who do grief to play assistant specifically.

I will also admit that I may be arguing from a point which is largely irrelevent, as I do not frequent Sibyl all that much and have only rarely seen the issue of an assistant overflow. I may be out of place here, but I only argue on here so that this decision isn't also considered on Artyom.

Honestly, we have an obvious overflow of assistants, it doesn't really hurt to cut down the numbers, even if those won't be greytiders.

I do agree, there is the issue present of people going assistant when important jobs are not filled. However, I do not agree that this is the way to go about it. In my opinion, the idea of limiting assistant slots to 3n, where n is the number of other jobs filled, is a good idea, and while I was opposed to it at first it would be a much better way of cutting down on the numbers of assistants than an access removal which may not fix the problem it was intended for, and will probably end up as another 'test' which never gets reverted.

If you really want to build maintenance house, you can go to HoP and say "Hey buddy, I want to build maintenance house".

My issue with this is that some HoPs might be unwilling to give maintenance access and that it would add more steps to something which right now is rather simple to access, although that point was a slight unrelated comment which, thinking over it again, was a bad point to include.

I mean, you say that it will not change anything because all doors will be hacked and then you rant about how it's super bad for assistants. So which is it?

Again, I did kind of get away from my point in my post and I'm sorry for that. But, the point was more that it wouldn't stop the few with tools from accessing maintenance, but it would cut off everyone else, and that removing maintenance access is not just the quick fix to growing assistant numbers that some people seem to think it is. It has the possibility to be, but it is more likely to not work as intended. I simply do not like the idea of doing something which, more likely than not, would leave the shitlers unaffected and would only punish innocent players.
Sorry if this post isn't articulated all too well, I am still rather tired and am typing on a rather shitty laptop.

[Timbrewolf]

Maintenance access shouldn't be taken away from anyone. It needs to be given to more jobs. I try to remember what the bad part of having a station where everyone could get into maintenance was and I come up with nothing. I only see two ways about it that make any sense:

1) Maintenance is for maintenance. Give it only to engineers and atmos techs, because if we're going to be super serious they're the only ones who should be going back there to work on wires and fix hull breeches and shit anyway. No fun allowed realistic spacestation roleplays. Anyone not an engineer caught in the tunnels should be treated like a saboteur.

2) Maintenance is just another hallway alternative and everyone should be free to take shortcuts through it. As long as you have a valid station ID you should have maint access.

Regardless, that's off topic as fuck. Maintenance access is another conversation, if you must comment on it just speak your own opinion and be done with it. Don't have this back and forth about maintenance access in a topic that's about antag for assistants.

I repeat

If you want to talk about maintenance access for folks it's a completely different topic of conversation. Go make another thread and argue about who can open what doors there.

[Cheridan]

Regardless, that's off topic as fuck. Maintenance access is another conversation, if you must comment on it just speak your own opinion and be done with it. Don't have this back and forth about maintenance access in a topic that's about antag for assistants.

But the reason we're discussing this in the first place is because of the shitload of assistants recently. Both antag and maint removal of assistants are being discussed as a means to reduce the amount of assistants, so while it's a bit tangental it's still relevant.

[Lovecraft]

The more I think about it the better overall antag. removal from assistant sounds.
It should help place the "job" back as a sort of tutorial for new players.
Like, you know, play as long as you want on training wheels, but if you ever want cool stuff you'll have to move up and take responsibilities as a player. It's a fair trade off, get a job and you're able to get the cool toys.
Granted the backlash would be tremendous, but backlash from people who main Assistant just do pull this shit doesn't sound like it'd matter much.
It's a fantastic long term solution, however bad the short term is.
Of course I am rolling in my bed sick from medicine so I could be completely delusional.

[tunderchief]

The more I think about it the better overall antag. removal from assistant sounds.
It should help place the "job" back as a sort of tutorial for new players.
Like, you know, play as long as you want on training wheels, but if you ever want cool stuff you'll have to move up and take responsibilities as a player. It's a fair trade off, get a job and you're able to get the cool toys.
Granted the backlash would be tremendous, but backlash from people who main Assistant just do pull this shit doesn't sound like it'd matter much.
It's a fantastic long term solution, however bad the short term is.
Of course I am rolling in my bed sick from medicine so I could be completely delusional.

You aren't delusional. You just worded my belief perfectly.

Fucking off from any actual work is okay. Fucking off from any actual work with the added chance of becoming an Antag is not okay.

The people who put effort into running the damned space station should reap a benefit from it, namely the chance to have some fun as an antag once in a while.

Assistants should not get this, because they are either new people on whom antag roles would be wasted, or shitlers who more often than not fuck off and play Assistant the vast majority of the time.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

1) Maintenance is for maintenance. Give it only to engineers and atmos techs, because if we're going to be super serious they're the only ones who should be going back there to work on wires and fix hull breeches and shit anyway. No fun allowed realistic spacestation roleplays. Anyone not an engineer caught in the tunnels should be treated like a saboteur.

Currently this is the case, engineers and atmos techs have maint because you know, maintenance, janitor has that for the same reason, maintenance, cargo has it because disposals, detective has it because investigations and assistants have it because... why? I guess in theory they are also supposed to maintain station, but we all know what they do in practice.

It's not like I specifically don't like assistants having maint, but assistants desperately need to be less convenient. This and antag status are the ways to make it so.

Even if you make everyone be able to go to maint, I'd say assistants shouldn't. I mean come on, they have absolutely no fucking responsibility, why would they have maint access?

[kosmos]

The more I think about it the better overall antag. removal from assistant sounds.

I agree wholeheartedly with your idea behind this, but it could lead to potential bad situations meta-wise when antags disguise themselves as an assistant and won't ever be caught. ...Although I suppose it wouldn't be impossible to teach everyone that anyone can be a disguised traitor.

[bandit]

Regardless, that's off topic as fuck. Maintenance access is another conversation, if you must comment on it just speak your own opinion and be done with it. Don't have this back and forth about maintenance access in a topic that's about antag for assistants.

But the reason we're discussing this in the first place is because of the shitload of assistants recently. Both antag and maint removal of assistants are being discussed as a means to reduce the amount of assistants, so while it's a bit tangental it's still relevant.

The shitload of assistants is directly due to Sibyl being overpopulated. It is completely counterproductive to talk about "OMG THE ONLY EXPERIENCED PLAYERS WHO GO ASSISTANT ARE SHITLER GRAYTIDERS" (fuck off) when in many rounds assistant is the only remaining thing to join as. It is also indirectly due to the changes to the HoP console prohibiting him from opening up new job slots. If you want there to be fewer assistants, fix Sibyl's overpopulation and/or the HoP console and it will fix itself.

Removing antag from assistants is another step down the slippery slope of removing them from every role, because you can always think of a reason. In this case it's especially stupid, because given that most assistantfloods exist because assistant is the only remaining job role, you will essentially be turning off latejoin antags after a certain point (leading to stagnated rounds) and causing the HoP to ignore the job console even more than he usually does, because if he manually opens slots rather than assigning jobs to assistants, they could be antags. I.e. meta.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You don't know what you're talking about, apparently. Assistant (13) Station Engineer (2) Scientist (1) Security Officer (0) is a common situation on Sybil. Nobody's talking about assistants being picked when there are no slots available.

Removing antag from assistants is another step down the slippery slope of removing them from every role

Wait, did you just say that reducing antag probability on assistant means antagonists will be removed from the game eventually? Ha-ha-ha-ha

[MisterPerson]

Scaredy has said he's willing to try this for a short period of time and then do another poll to see if it stays or goes. That's not to say he will do that, simply that he was ok with doing it.

Bandit raises some good points, especially about people meta'ing assistants getting job promotions. This is one reason I voted to simply lower their antag chance, not remove it outright.

[Alex Crimson]

Scaredy has said he's willing to try this for a short period of time and then do another poll to see if it stays or goes. That's not to say he will do that, simply that he was ok with doing it.

Bandit raises some good points, especially about people meta'ing assistants getting job promotions. This is one reason I voted to simply lower their antag chance, not remove it outright.

What did he agree to try? Removing their antag status completely, or just lowering it? I agree lowering it significantly would be the best option, as it would also stop the metagaming from knowing Assistants cannot get antag.

[Steelpoint]

I would speculate SoS would be removing their antag status outright for the test. Simply because I think it would take far more effort to code a reduced assistant antag chance than it would be to protect a single role.

[bandit]

You don't know what you're talking about, apparently. Assistant (13) Station Engineer (2) Scientist (1) Security Officer (0) is a common situation on Sybil. Nobody's talking about assistants being picked when there are no slots available.

If it were me I'd pick assistant too, because latejoining engineers might as well be assistants, scientist can be a very tedious job if you're not in the mood for repetitive grunt work, and being the only security officer is hell. The solution isn't to nerf assistant, the solution is to make those other jobs more appealing. And yes, a lot of people in the thread are talking about assistants being picked with no slots available, or at least they aren't *not* talking about it.

Removing antag from assistants is another step down the slippery slope of removing them from every role

Wait, did you just say that reducing antag probability on assistant means antagonists will be removed from the game eventually? Ha-ha-ha-ha[/quote]

No, but you can easily imagine a situation where antag chance is removed from more and more roles. A few have already been floated:

"If security can't be antag, heads of staff shouldn't either!"
"If security can't be antag, the lawyer shouldn't either!"

And a few of them are easy to imagine based on the flawed logic that has already been thrown out:

"Clown/mime shouldn't be antag, it encourages clowns/mimes to griff!" (the assistant argument)
"Scientist shouldn't be antag, their access to tank transfer bombs/telescience/gold slime xenos simply makes them too overpowered!" (the security argument)
"Engineer shouldn't be antag, their access to releasing the singlo makes them too overpowered!"

And so on. In fact, "assistants won't get to be antags!" was the next step down the slope people thought was ridiculous. And here we are.

[Steelpoint]

Maybe I can get behind the whole idea of a slippery slope. Well, actually no.

Take into consideration the reasons why Security, and the suggestion of Assistants, do not have antag rights, then compare them to any other station role and you will see that Assistants and Security are the unique exceptions to everything else.

Security: They act as the direct counter to all antags, they being antags is a massive contradiction in their role as well as it serving to undermine their authority and team cohesion.

Assistants: Putting aside the grey tide problem, Assistants contribute nothing to the stations operation or provide any tangible role to the station. Them sacrificing their antag eligibility in exchange for having no responsibilities or anyone to answer to seems a fair call.

Every other role on the station, from Engineers and Atmo Tech's to the Chef and Chaplain, contribute to the stations operation in some way and provide a tangible role and/or service to the station.

[MisterPerson]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

[Kelenius]

How about we add 'return to lobby if preferences unavailable' option.

That'll reduce amount of assistants.

[Cheridan]

The shitload of assistants is directly due to Sibyl being overpopulated. It is completely counterproductive to talk about "OMG THE ONLY EXPERIENCED PLAYERS WHO GO ASSISTANT ARE SHITLER GRAYTIDERS" (fuck off) when in many rounds assistant is the only remaining thing to join as. It is also indirectly due to the changes to the HoP console prohibiting him from opening up new job slots. If you want there to be fewer assistants, fix Sibyl's overpopulation and/or the HoP console and it will fix itself.

If it were simply a matter of overpopulation and the influx of assistants was due to all other slots being filled, THAT WOULD BE PERFECTLY FINE. Assistant would be performing its role as an overflow/newbie job.

This is not what is happening.

[bandit]

OK, so do we know how many of those are people who:

- joined late and get hit by the role selection bug (for those who don't know, if you declare ready as roles are being assigned, you bypass that and get assistant)
- have Assistant If Job Preferences Are Unavailable selected
- just don't really have time for a lengthy role that forces them to remain at their computer for an hour without being called away?

There are many reasons people go assistant other than being shit.

[paprika]

Then what's the problem with making it less appealing again, your argument has literally nothing to do with that

[bandit]

Because it's based on a flawed premise ("assistants are shit") that proposes a drastic changes that undermines one of the core traits of the game (equal-opportunity antags) and that will result in meta (the HoP thing already happens with security -- the HoP has no reason to deny security any request ever, as security can't be antags -- and it will definitely happen with assistants) to fix a "problem" ("we are currently drowning in a permanent greytide") that is better fixed by other means (fixing the assistant bug, improving job assignation by the HoP, making jobs less tedious / more enticing).

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Well, personally, I don't know about the others, but I want to do this mainly not because greytide and stuff, but because we have way too many assistants all the time. You can compare it to unemployment, there are always some people that don't have jobs and it's okay, but high unemployment is a huge problem. So here you have a bunch of people who don't do ANYTHING useful and they still can cause trouble. Well, we gotta fight that. How do we fight it? By reducing the appeal of going assistant.

If you really just want to chill out as assistant, you won't miss your antag chances too much. If you're there for easy antag, well, fuck you.

And yeah, most people kind of agree that plain removal of antag from assistants is bad for meta reasons.

[Cipher3]

If you're there for easy antag, well, fuck you.

>Easy antag
I used to play HoP all the time, that's easy antag. Assistants can break into anywhere at the cost of often getting arrested because breaking into places gets you thrown out at the least if you're caught. Once had an RD who threw me in the xeno pen in xenobio and turned on N2O after threatening plasma flood. The only advantage assistants have is maintenance and slightly easier toolbelt access. That is, technically any job could go to primary tool storage at roundstart if they wanted, or order cargo crates, or even just get maintenance access.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Okay, I wasn't very clear. What I meant was "don't want to play the game without antagonist role". I mean, I can't imagine anyone else being hurt by this. Like I said, if you prefer to just chill out as assistant from time to time, sure, you'll just get reduced antag chances, I think that's prefectly fine for a round or two. If you go assistant all the time, then don't expect to also get antag all the time. So, if you genuinely like playing as an assistant, you should be fine. If you just want to play against the crew all the time, as greytider or antagonist, fuck you.

[Timbrewolf]

Bandit your perceptions are horribly misinformed and your best argument against the change is a slippery slope fallacy.

The poll says there are a bunch of people against the change, but the thread only contains one solid argument against the change, that is the potential for people to metagame that assistants can't be traitors.

If we have a choice between dealing with that problem or trying to manage rounds where almost half the station is assistants for no reason...I can't speak for every admin but I would prefer to deal with the former than the latter.

Another change to consider alongside this would be removing assistants as targets for antag objectives. If part of the consideration behind this change is re-iterating assistant as a training job for new players, ensuring someone out there isn't actively hunting them down for green text would make sense.

If a player really cared enough about ensuring they weren't a target it would make assistant a more attractive pick, but keep in mind that you can easily guarantee you wont be a target in any job by just waiting to join after round-start...and assistant always has more slots anyway. In effect, if you want to play as an assistant without fear of being targeted you can be guaranteed that position on the station anyway in the way the game currently functions.

For players who enjoy the suspense of not knowing whether someone is out to get them, it would again push more players into choosing more advanced jobs. It may also liven up more antag rounds for players. Having to assassinate an assistant is usually a total crapshoot. Sometimes they space themselves at round start, sometimes they do shit that gets them stuck in the permabrig all round locked behind all of sec.

[Steelpoint]

SoS did say a while ago he would reenable Sec Maint access, guess nothing came of that. Its really bloody obnoxious.

We can only see if SoS decides to go ahead and trial a assistant antag removal.

[tunderchief]

The bottom line is that if Assistants outnumber Sec, or Science, or Engineering at fuckin' round start, there is a problem. And this has been an problem for a long time.

Assistants need to be nerfed to make them less fun, and to either push the people who abuse them into actual station jobs, or exclude their greytiding altogether. Maint access is not enough, as the greyshits will just weld through walls and hack Maint doors all over the station.

[Rose-chan]

Why not have assistants start loyalty implanted? That eliminates the metagame problem with assistants not being able to be antagonists.

[cedarbridge]

Why not have assistants start loyalty implanted? That eliminates the metagame problem with assistants not being able to be antagonists.

No

[Rolan7]

Reducing rather than removing the antag chance fixes the meta problem, as others have said. Even a 10% chance would keep people suspicious, but even a 50% chance would dissuade people from picking assistant just for antag. So I think 50% (and fixing the probabilities bug) is the way to go.

[ExplosiveCrate]

Yeah, outright eliminating assistant antag is a horrible idea that would just validate valid seeking vigilantes. Reducing it to around half is the best way to go about this.

[Scott]

Here's the thing with lowering or removing the antag roll chance, though, I don't want to have less of a chance of being antag just because I was automatically assigned to Assistant because the slots for the job I wanted were filled up when it is my turn.

[Steelpoint]

If that might be a problem then simply just enable some low key jobs (Medical Doctor, any Civilian Job) on the LOW setting so that if you don't get your preferred job you'll still get in with another job and keep the antag chance.

[Skorvold]

People will just grab Med Doctor or other slots and get demoted/do nothing in the event this happens.

[paprika]

jobban them?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

People will just grab Med Doctor or other slots and get demoted/do nothing in the event this happens.

So?

This is as stupid as "nothing will change, they will hack maint".

Okay, if nothing will change, there's no harm in doing it. Somehow I doubt that nothing will change.

[tunderchief]

People will just grab Med Doctor or other slots and get demoted/do nothing in the event this happens.

But that isn't a problem, as MDs or any other job with a department(other than maybe Engineers) look suspicious when anywhere other than their assigned area. Assistants are a triple threat. No expectations or oversight, access to the vast majority of the station via Maint and nowhere special to be, and a solid Antag chance. This is why shitters pick the role. This is why almost half the starting crew are Assistants while there aren't enough Engineers to set up the sing or MDs to set up Cryo. Assistants can be almost anywhere on the station without being ridiculously suspicious, as the server culture is starting to allow for greyshitting since it's become so common, which is unacceptable.

All semantics aside, this needs to be done, and the only people who are going to be strongly against it are those who are unrealistically worried about meta, and those who are perma-greytide. The only people we stand to lose are the perma-shitters who can't cut it anywhere else.

[Cipher3]

This is why shitters pick the role.

Tunder you should have just told us you were psychic.

[Apsis]

You guys make it seem like getting antag is a big deal. Maybe to some, and I do think it's cool to have the roles that help the station get more priority. But they can also enjoy a swarm of assistants taking part in a good hunt for 'em. Does anyone have the max population all the jobs (except assistant) can hold?

[tunderchief]

You guys make it seem like getting antag is a big deal. Maybe to some, and I do think it's cool to have the roles that help the station get more priority. But they can also enjoy a swarm of assistants taking part in a good hunt for 'em. Does anyone have the max population all the jobs (except assistant) can hold?

The problem is that regardless of the max population of each job, those caps are only very rarely reached due to greytides.